Israel..Favored by the world???

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by backinblack

 

Israel have done their fair share of destroying.. The sympathy card has been done to death...

Why look at it as a "sympathy card"? Why is it that people feel they can only have sympathy for one side or the other? Have sympathy for both sides, when deserving.

And I'll tell you something else- I might be an Atheist like you, but I'm saddened by the loss of these sites.. This is my ancestor's ancient history, it is important to me.. I wouldn't go to war over it, but to destroy it for nothing?

Israel destroyed, and the Arabs destroyed- Neither have been rightful.

And I think his point was that the Arabs weren't held to the same standards or scrutiny Israel is held to now a days.. Which is true, albeit a bit irrelevant.

Eliad, Jews have played the sympathy card for over 60 years..
No other race/religion has done that as much..
It's how they got Israel..

I don't agree with the destruction of Historical sites but I also see that religion has been used as an EXCUSE far too often..
IMO we would be better off without it..

reply to post by ScepticalBeliever


Honesty is subjective

You find me honest because we might have similar views, I've been called a Zionist propaganda pig (or something in the lines of..) many times by many members of this forum in spite of my relatively balanced (as best as I can) opinions.

What kills me is the polarity of opinions in this conflict- You're either 100% on one side or 100% on the other.

Considering that the solution is probably somewhere in the middle I'd say it's all a bit counter productive

reply to post by backinblack


Probably what they say they will do. Use that leverage to completely destroy whats left of the Jewish state.

I love how jews have the nerve to call arabs terrorists when the jews were the ones who bombed the king david hotel. The people that bombed it became members of the government later on. That is a TRUE terrorist state.

The lavon affair
The uss liberty
911

and on and on. Victim victim victim. lol

Israel also defies Lebanon's airspace on an almost daily basis. Which is against another resolution, not sure which one it is. Doesn't seem to matter to the israeli's. They just hope Hesbollah will shoot something down so they can play the victim once more.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by backinblack

 

Probably what they say they will do. Use that leverage to completely destroy whats left of the Jewish state.

The question was " How would Israel react" not the Arabs...

reply to post by Eliad


You're right about honesty- probably the wrong word, slightly sleep deprived here at the minute, hence my vocabulary has been drastically reduced in size I suppose empathy would perhaps be more fitting, in a way.

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying about the polarized opinions too. That was my basic point regarding it being unimportant as to who owns the most blame for the events- the past is the past, there is no use in citing events which occured a few generations ago as reason to cause more bloodshed, some compromise is needed.

I also agree with you, backinblack, regarding religion- it's a bit worrying if in the 21st century we still, as a race, use religion- something which there is basically no evidence for- as an excuse to wipe out fellow man.

reply to post by backinblack


Religion can motivate people to do the best of things or the worst of things.
At the end of the day people need it, especially when faced with their own mortality. Those floods you guys are having are probably going to have two major consequences in the next few years- An big increase in the number of pregnant women, and a big increase in the number of Sunday church goers.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that if you think of sympathy as some kind of currency you're sort of missing the point of having sympathy.
It isn't a credit card, it can't be maxed out, it can lose relevance, yes, like the holocaust has, but how can you cap your sympathy towards injustice just for *one* side. Sympathy is sympathy, you're supposed to feel it whenever something bad happens to anyone else, regardless of who it is.

At any rate, I didn't really want to make a big deal out of it.

reply to post by backinblack


If things dont change. nothing. The secular israeli establishment is already determined for just that situation to occur.

The issue however is not what would Israel do. The Palestinians are the ones constantly pressing for more land, and more control over Jewish religious sites which they insist are actually theres. And even when some of their demands are met. Does the rocket attacks stop? No. does the drug smuggling stop? no.

How much have you even read about this? Palestine is notoriously corrupt; even more so than the Israeli establishment (which is obviously very corrupt).. Most of the money they get via foreign aid doesnt even end up in palestinian hands. It goes to weapons, propaganda, or straight into the pockets of PLO officials.

The whole notion that Jerusalem is any way relavant to muslims is laughable. Notice how most of the architecture and style of Jerusalem dates to Christian times. Meaning the muslims left the city desolate and unrenovated for hundreds of years. They didnt care about it. They only started to care when Jews moved in.

Thats what led Winston Churchill to say

"why is it injstice when now there is more work and weath for everybody? there is no injustice. the injustice is when those who live in the country leave it to be desert for thousands of years.. how could they be termed the indiginous population?The Arabs had come in after the Jews. The great hordes of islam smashed the land up. You have seen the terraces on the hills that once were cultivated which under Arab rule have remained a desert" cited from martin gilbert exile and return pg 176...

reply to post by dontreally


Some facts but a very biased view..
Tell you what..
Tell me Israel's 3 worst crimes in your opinion...

reply to post by backinblack


Hmm. Why?

Heres 2 incredibly unjust things the secular israel government has done

1) the ring-worm affair. Israel essentially experimented on 20,000 sephardic children newly immigrated to Israel. They all basically died horrible deaths. Easily the worst thing Israel has ever done.

2) the expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif, which had historically been a Jewish town in the Northern part of the so-called gaza strip... 5000 + Jews had there homes destroyed and synagogues demolished

Its hard to have sympathy for people who want to kill you. Look at PalestineMediaWatch.org. Look at the horrendous propaganda palestinians are subjected to. I REFUSE to contribute to any sympathy towards these people when their being indoctrinated in a manner similar to what the Nazis did. They - that is, the Hamas ruled citizens of Palestine, and Hizbollah, are completely evil. Their leaders are venemous liars of a caliber that surpasses even Israels leadership. When they say 'peace' their own leaders; in hamas, fatah and the PLO mean 'only a temporary cease fire".

They want the Jews out of Israel and I want them there. I believe in the Torah and i believe that the Jews really do have a divine purpose for all mankind. And the modern philistines (literally palestine is a roman play on the Hebrew philistim) are being used a political fodder by both the arab and western elites to prevent that.

If you can look around at the above suggested website (Palestine media watch

reply to post by dontreally

Heres 2 incredibly unjust things the secular israel government has done

That's as far as is worth reading...
You are not worth debating...

reply to post by backinblack


I dont understand why you bolded the secular part.

Israel was founded on secular western democratic principals.

I make the distinction between 'secular' to point out that the true Israel should be a model of its namesake; Jacob, who was than called Israel. Until Israel is a religious Israel rooted in the Torah, it will forever be an abomination to the rest of the world. One has to know himself and BE himself in order for others to like him. The Jewish people have survived the 2 thousand years of exile and endless persecution ONLY because of their Judaism.

reply to post by backinblack




That really hurts my feelings.

Read a book on the history of Israel, the Jewish people, their persecutions under Roman, Christian(crusades, inquisition - where roughly 1/3rd of world jewry was either killed or forcibly converted), Muslim, Communist and Nazi government, read a book on the history of palestine and how it was was established. Educate yourself before you bother debating others who are educated in these areas.

And as for the '6 day war' argument we had in the other thread. Egypt blocked the waterway into Israel. FACT. look it up. They also amassed its armies at sinai and vowed to "throw the Jews into the sea".

*snip*.

reply to post by dontreally


So you're saying communist russia, which was pretty much a total Jewish takeover of russia, forced jews to convert from judiasm? wierd.

reply to post by dontreally

Its pathetic that you - the ignoramus in this conversation - is the one whining about me. I suppose that its apt though. Typically its people liek you who resort to these sort of responses to compensate for an obvious lack in their knowledge/debating skills.

Care to point out the sorts of responses you are referring too???
Looks to me like YOU are the one doing the insulting..
I simply disagree with some of your views as is my option...

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by backinblack

 

Probably what they say they will do. Use that leverage to completely destroy whats left of the Jewish state.

And? It may be shocking, but no state has a "right" to exist, Jewish or otherwise. China, the United States, Belgium, Uruguay, NONE of them have any inherent right to remain tangible entities. Several nations have vanished from our history books - The Confederate States of America, Austria-Hungary, Rhodesia, Zanzibar, East Germany, Tibet, and Yugoslavia to name a few. Others have erupted out of other nations - East Timor, North and South Korea, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, and the Republic of Ireland to name a few.

From its inception, Israel has been on shaky ground. The only thing that makes Israel "Israel" rather than "West Jordan" is a jewish majority. However, it's never been a very large majority. To call Israel "The Jewish State" is to ignore the large - and growing - number of non-Jews within its borders. it also attributes some sort of monolithic uniformity to Israel's Jews; anyone watching the Knesset in action would realize this is far from the truth.

Due to this shaky basis for a nation, Israel has historically engaged in some very heavy-handed oppression against its minorities, both Israeli citizens, and those who have had the misfortune of living under Israeli authority. This has, to make an understatement, caused a lot of resentment against Israel by these minority groups, resentment that is shared by a moderate number of Israeli Jews who either find the same oppression put on their heads (such as the Temani and Falasha ethnic groups) or who are politically progressive and favor an egalitarian solution.

The consequences of this are pretty evident; currently the only thing that preserves Israel's status as "the jewish state" is a constant influx of money and weapons from the United States. Without that, it would very swiftly become a more multi-ethnic - though Arab-dominated - state. And due to demographics changes, even the constant aid from the United States can't stave this off for too many more years.

Israel is doomed to vanish as a nation, just like previous crusader kingdoms in the East Mediterranean, and for exactly the same reasons. Even in a 100% peaceful, best-case scenario, Israel's claim as "The Jewish State" will be gone in 50 years, and in its place will be a Jewish-Arab state comprising both Israel and the Palestinian territories.

reply to post by dontreally

Well, that's just one example out of hundreds of resolutions. Still, close to 0 I would say as far as enforcing resolutions go. You know it's easy constantly pointing the finger at the other side - not to mention convenient, since Arab terrorists are the bogeyman no. 1 since 9/11. I know this though: violence breeds violence in an endless vicious circle that cannot easily be broken. I know one thing for sure, if my country was invaded and taken over by foreign people who claim a right to it, because in some mythical past they claim to have dwelt there first, I would defend it to the last drop of my blood. And some religious sites in Israel belong to all three major religions and denominations (the Jews, the Christians and the Muslim). Sure the Muslim Arabs came last, but that mosque they built on the Temple Mound is one of their major religious sites (comes 3rd after Mecca and Medina, I believe). Also, I know this: in every conflict, all parties are equally responsible and often equally guilty of misdeeds. When a marriage breaks, it's never just the fault of one of the partner's. It takes two to tango.

Originally posted by dontreally
Its hard to have sympathy for people who want to kill you. Look at PalestineMediaWatch.org. Look at the horrendous propaganda palestinians are subjected to. I REFUSE to contribute to any sympathy towards these people when their being indoctrinated in a manner similar to what the Nazis did.

You refuse to contribute any sympathy to people because they - by your own words - have propaganda forced on them? You have no sympathy for people who are having their heads filled with lies, with no alternatives for them to look to? I suppose you have even less sympathy for the people of North Korea?

They - that is, the Hamas ruled citizens of Palestine, and Hizbollah, are completely evil.

Really? Every human being under Hamas rule in Palestine (that is, all Palestinians) are "completely evil"?

By the by, Hezbollah is in Lebanon, and is not currently a ruling party.

Their leaders are venemous liars of a caliber that surpasses even Israels leadership.

Untrue. Palestinian leaders are notoriously bad liars. They lie alright, it's just that they're hideously inept at it. Israel is definitely ahead of them in the arena of high-caliber political liars.

When they say 'peace' their own leaders; in hamas, fatah and the PLO mean 'only a temporary cease fire".

All cease-fires are temporary. That's the difference between a cease-fire and lasting peavce. A good example of this is North and South Korea. These two nations have been at war for over sixty years; most of that, however, has been spent under a cease-fire.

I, for one, happen to think that Israel's leaders are intelligent enough to understand what a cease-fire is. They certainly have no room to complain about it being a cease-fire after htey sign on. especially after they violate that cease-fire.

They want the Jews out of Israel and I want them there. I believe in the Torah and i believe that the Jews really do have a divine purpose for all mankind. And the modern philistines (literally palestine is a roman play on the Hebrew philistim) are being used a political fodder by both the arab and western elites to prevent that.

Believing what the Torah says about the Jewish people is kind of like believing what the Turner Diaries says about White People. It's, shall we say, biased.

If you can look around at the above suggested website (Palestine media watch

Did you know there's a "Jew Watch" site that does basically the same thing? I, personally, classify both sites as hate sites, since their entire point is to denigrate and demonize an entire group of people as subhuman scum.