LHC finds 'interesting effects - Do particles 'talk' to each other in particle collisions?

Hi there,

I just read an interesting article about new findings at the LHC. It appears a pattern is emerging from the many collisions that have occurred to date.

Due to the nature of high energy physics, it is not possible to predict the trajectory of the sub-atomic particles produced in a collision close to the speed of light... Or so we thought....

CMS detector is reported to have seen "new and interesting effects". These effects concern the particular paths taken by the debris particles as they move away from the impacts. These angular correlations emerged in the statistical study of particle movements in billions of collisions. "In some sense, it's like the particles talk to each other and they decide which way to go," explained CMS Spokesperson Guido Tonelli.

LHC finds 'interesting effects'

For me this is an interesting twist, as I am an avid follower of the theory of Quantum gravity. Within this field there is an explanation to this that has been predicted. In essence there is no fundamental particle as such, just space-time. All matter is made of twisted braids of space time.

When a collision occurs the two particles (twisted space-time) collide unravelling the braids to create other configurations of space-time braiding, some stable, some not so stable.

The energy produced in the collision is literally space-time retuning to base state (quantum foam) and as such the surface area of space-time increases at that point... we detect this as energy.

Now to relate this to the article in question.

If matter is indeed just made of space-time twisted up then there is no real separation between anything, as everything is connected at its base, this explains entanglement but it could also explain how particles when smashed together could cause ripples within space-time that cause a resonance in the sub-atomic particles produced in the collision, causing them to direct each other’s trajectory.

A fascinating find and I look forward to seeing plenty of Quantum Gravity papers with the equations clearly defined for people to see.

All the best,

Korg.

reply to post by Korg Trinity


WOW yes mate.

Bertolucci said... "supersymmetry and extra dimensions, hyperdimensional "doors" out of which might come unspecified "somethings"....."wormhole could be opened....after this tiny moment the door would again shut, bringing us back to our 'normal' four dimensional world ... It would be a major leap in our vision of Nature, although of no practcal use (for the time being, at least). And of course [there would be] no risk to the stability of our world."

my only concern is that.... creating such collisions and breaking up atoms into new elements..within the suns field.....ouch! will these experiments effect our sun or our relationship with it???

we could be engulfed by a wormhole...i dont think we know enpugh to call this is a good idea


dunno!

I can just imagine it now.

"Hey John, 'sup?"

"Not much man. Wanna mess with the scientists for fun?"

"Yeah, sure thing brah."

reply to post by Korg Trinity

When a collision occurs the two particles (twisted space-time) collide unravelling the braids to create other configurations of space-time braiding, some stable, some not so stable.

The energy produced in the collision is literally space-time retuning to base state (quantum foam) and as such the surface area of space-time increases at that point... we detect this as energy.

S&F!!!! for that explanation. You said it so well. I have said the exact same thing for so long now. I need to find some quotes to add to what you said.

EDIT: Here is an exert from a metaphysical paper I wrote, the full thread can be found here (take it with a grain of salt, I wrote this so long ago): Enforced Logic - Reality and "Magic"

The point is that everything we see is the result of one thing, just a very complex system of energetic fluctuations, but at some point the system is only the warping and fluxing of one thing, nothingness, space. If you warp space you get energy. I believe if you stretch space, pulling from two points, a string of space between the two points will contain potential energy. I believe these are the building blocks of everything, tie the space into a knot so that it can't neutralize and you have a basic “particle”, maybe a quark, maybe something much smaller.
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When scientists dig deep enough they will literally find nothing, they will rip apart some semi-existent particles and be left with nothing as the resulting energy rapidly decays.

Is anyone else like me and worries about things our scientists are messing with?

They dont know what will happen or what they may create or open...

I know they say the risks are minute but we all know Murphy's law.

Originally posted by CHA0S

The point is that everything we see is the result of one thing, just a very complex system of energetic fluctuations, but at some point the system is only the warping and fluxing of one thing, nothingness, space. If you warp space you get energy. I believe if you stretch space, pulling from two points, a string of space between the two points will contain potential energy. I believe these are the building blocks of everything, tie the space into a knot so that it can't neutralize and you have a basic “particle”, maybe a quark, maybe something much smaller.

I gave you a star for this because this is exactly what happens at the Planck scale of reality (10 to the minus 35 meters). It is how our level of reality emerges and you are right on the money. I think more and more people are beginning to see the idea. I'm happy to have met someone else that can clearly visualise within their minds eye what reality actually is.

This process also makes it very easy to explained and demystify the so called 'spooky action at a distance" also known as quantum entanglement. You see because all braids are connected at their base, it is easy to see that distance is irrelevant when you have two particles (braids) sharing a twist in their braid. When one is observed it's wave function collapses and its values are set, meaning that the other particle in the pair gets altered instantaneously.

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When scientists dig deep enough they will literally find nothing, they will rip apart some semi-existent particles and be left with nothing as the resulting energy rapidly decays.

It's poetic isn't it?

The largest collider we have built, the LHC and the Alice experiment is all about trying to observe the Higgs Boson where they believe it will contain information on the origin of mass. Of course the higgs doesn't exist, it is just a clever piece of math created to prop up a blurry picture of reality called the standard model.

Actually it's almost crazy since we have had the concept that matter and energy are interchangeable for such a long time it beggars belief that we are still harping on about fundamental particles.

Simply put matter is not contained within a space-time substrate, matter is Space-time.

Korg.

I went to CERN and the LHC a few months back and it was by far the most amazing thing humans have ever accomplished. The incredible feats of engineering they had to perform just to complete construction were mind-boggling. Not to mention the insane amounts of energy that has to be directed in such an precise fashion, that there is absolutely no room for error.

Truly an amazing experience and well worth the price of admission. They have a superb interactive museum which I spent an entire day in, as well.

That said, the one thing about the LHC and the individual experiments (ATLAS, CMS, etc), is they only look at an extremely small fraction of the actual collisions. Of the billions of collisions happening every second at 5 different collision points along the 27km outer ring, they are only able to look at say 1% of those. Then of those 1%, they further whittle them down to the 1% of that 1% that are actual interesting "candidate collision events". This is because of the massive amounts of data involved. Every day they store the equivalent of 700 CD's of data, and that is just the ATLAS experiment.

So, my point is that there could be selection bias in the results. First you have humans which calibrate the equipment to look for certain patterns or correlations. Then the equipment acts accordingly, embodying the human prejudices in its analysis of the data. One would expect to find certain patterns in the ultimately selected candidate collision events because they were obviously a step apart from the rest, because that is what caused them to be selected in the first place.

I did find your explanation of the data very intriguing. e=mc2 works both ways. Matter is just energy in a different form, and vice versa. How that all weaves together in to SpaceTime is the Big Mystery(tm).

If I see that guy Guido next time I go to CERN, I'll probably talk to him and try to explain that he needs to choose words for his explanation to laymen way, way better. Correlations are just that, correlations, and there is no need to talk about interdimensional planck bullcr@p. As I said in a different thread, what is observed is qualitatively similar to RHIC results. Protons have structure. Deal with is, without resorting to the occult.

reply to post by Crimelab



God Bless...lucky one.

do you think that all that effort of building it...was on a "Gamble" to find a "god particle" or do they know what they are after???

im thinking of investors....would would it take for you to part with your cash???
mine, would be a 100% chance pass rate...so that cancels out the "Higgs boson" idea,

reply to post by Korg Trinity

I'm happy to have met someone else that can clearly visualise within their minds eye what reality actually is.

Same here, I think you're the first person I've actually met who can visualize this concept in the same way as me. BTW, do you know if this theory has been mentioned by any mainstream scientists? I'm just wondering, because I honestly came up with this on my own years ago. I just know some guy will take all the credit when this theory starts to get some mainstream consideration (which I know it will), I've had it happen to me before.

This process also makes it very easy to explained and demystify the so called 'spooky action at a distance" also known as quantum entanglement. You see because all braids are connected at their base, it is easy to see that distance is irrelevant when you have two particles (braids) sharing a twist in their braid. When one is observed it's wave function collapses and its values are set, meaning that the other particle in the pair gets altered instantaneously.

EXACTLY! Would you agree with this statement:

Originally posted by CHA0S
If one particle changes instantly in accordance with the other, you would assume an instant transfer of information is taking place. However, lets assume for a second they are connected by some unseen force. If you tug on one, and the other will move instantly wont it? It's similar to electricity I think. When you flick on your light switch, your light will turn on instantly...because it doesn't take until one electron from the light switch reaches the light bulb; the electrical current actually pushes all the electrons in the wire, much like a plumbing system. If you have a hose full of water, and you turn on the tap, you don't need to wait until water from the tap reaches the end of the hose do you, because there is already water in the hose, so it might seem like when you turned the tap from a few meters away, you caused an instant transfer of information, because the water came out the other end instantly, but that obviously isn't the case.

It's poetic isn't it?

Indeed.

Of course the higgs doesn't exist, it is just a clever piece of math created to prop up a blurry picture of reality called the standard model.

I never really did think it existed, I just have a gut feeling about it.

Actually it's almost crazy since we have had the concept that matter and energy are interchangeable for such a long time it beggars belief that we are still harping on about fundamental particles.

Once again, great minds think a like. I could not agree more.

Simply put matter is not contained within a space-time substrate, matter is Space-time.

Well said.


EDIT: And I just want to say, I think it's pretty obvious everything in the Universe remains interconnected since it all came from one singularity at the "start of time". I expand on this concept in this thread: The structure of reality comprises of an interconnected web of energy

Originally posted by buddhasystem
If I see that guy Guido next time I go to CERN, I'll probably talk to him and try to explain that he needs to choose words for his explanation to laymen way, way better. Correlations are just that, correlations, and there is no need to talk about interdimensional planck bullcr@p. As I said in a different thread, what is observed is qualitatively similar to RHIC results. Protons have structure. Deal with is, without resorting to the occult.

Here we go again...

The pretender appears... You have already shot yourself in the foot... If you were who you claim to be then you could not deny Planck....

The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the ‘quantum of length’, the smallest measurement of length with any meaning. And roughly equal to 1.6 x 10-35 m or about 10-20 times the size of a proton.

Source - www.physlink.com...

In physics, the Planck length, denoted ℓP, is a unit of length, equal to 1.616252(81)×10−35 meters. It is a base unit in the system of Planck units. The Planck length can be defined from three fundamental physical constants: the speed of light in a vacuum, Planck's constant, and the gravitational constant.

Source - Wiki - Planck_length



And you think Loop Quantum Gravity is the occult?? Not sure what Lee Smolin would say to that....

LOOP QUANTUM GRAVITY: LEE SMOLIN

And before you attempt to discredit the man....

Lee Smolin

You should read the following PDF... Though if it is beyond you watch the youtube links...

Physics from loop quantum gravity





And in the Origins of mass (Eee Errr not the Higgs



Still seems like the occult??

Best advice is stop trying to pretend you know stuff you clearly have no clue about... just try and learn and maybe add something positive to the discussion.

If you don't agree with the verifiable results, please say why and post your math....

Korg.

Originally posted by Korg Trinity
The pretender appears... You have already shot yourself in the foot... If you were who you claim to be then you could not deny Planck....

A wannabe calls me a pretender, that's rich. They found a correlation in hadron production and you just use it to unload the usual bunch of your pseudo-science cr@p on unsuspecting public.

I don't pretend I understand quantum gravity but sure as hell I've had more practice in the field of physics than you, and that gives me a better view of the topic -- which you patently failed to grasp.

reply to post by buddhasystem

I don't pretend I understand quantum gravity but sure as hell I've had more practice in the field of physics than you, and that gives me a better view of the topic -- which you patently failed to grasp.

No, that gives you a conditioned mainstream view of the topic. You can't look outside the box because you're working off faulty preconceptions and creating things which don't exist to fit those failing theories. Instead of listening to what the evidence is telling you, you only accept that which validates out dated physics. And of course protons have structure, as far as I can see, no one has said they don't.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by Korg Trinity
The pretender appears... You have already shot yourself in the foot... If you were who you claim to be then you could not deny Planck....

A wannabe calls me a pretender, that's rich. They found a correlation in hadron production and you just use it to unload the usual bunch of your pseudo-science cr@p on unsuspecting public.

I don't pretend I understand quantum gravity but sure as hell I've had more practice in the field of physics than you, and that gives me a better view of the topic -- which you patently failed to grasp.

Firstly you replied without reviewing the data I presented... The you tube vids are 10 mins in length and all the data would take some time to absorb... So how could you possible grasp what I am saying??

Secondly Quantum gravity is NOT pseudo-science and suggesting such makes it very clear that you are not a physicist.

And thirdly the results I am pointing to in my original post are not just from collisions at the LHC but are in fact statistical data pulled from a database of all recorded collisions to date.

If you think the theory is wrong then please explain why you think that. Simply saying its crap is not enough. If however you have nothing positive to add here and your purpose is to derail the thread please refrained from posting,

Korg.

reply to post by Korg Trinity


Let me quote from the source you must be familiar with:

If matter is indeed just made of space-time twisted up then there is no real separation between anything, as everything is connected at its base, this explains entanglement

I find this patently idiotic and not worthy of comment.

You may think that your flatulence explains carbonation of beer in your glass, but I'll pass.

Originally posted by CynicalM
Is anyone else like me and worries about things our scientists are messing with?

They dont know what will happen or what they may create or open...

I know they say the risks are minute but we all know Murphy's law.

Exactly, they have no idea what will happen. This is uncharted territory and they act like they've been there before with their theories. You should be worried, we should all be, but we're too all too busy and imaginatively weak.

reply to post by buddhasystem

I find this patently idiotic and not worthy of comment.

I find that comment quite rude, and from my perspective, "blatantly" idiotic. You've done nothing but come in here and state how dumb it all is without bringing anything else to the table. You are at the pinnacle of ignorance. An exert from my profile:

Stuff I Don't Like

Ignorance and materialism. Skeptics that simply spout absurd opinions, trying to debunk everything, providing little to no facts to support their argument, and totally ignoring the scientific method all together.

Those who instantly resort to personal attacks and other forms of unconstructive criticism when faced with something mysterious and inexplicable in nature

So, do you mind at least trying to support your side of the argument, you have contributed nothing constructive thus far.

EDIT: I stand corrected, I just found that "patently" is a word and used properly in this case. That does not moot my point however.

Originally posted by CHA0S
EDIT: I stand corrected, I just found that "patently" is a word and used properly in this case. That does not moot my point however.

I'm glad I contributed to your education. My pleasure. And I repeat my claim that quantum gravity loop are involved in the LHC observations in the same way that your flatulence relates to carbonation of your soda. If you want me to really go into detail, you really are asking for too much because I'd need to start with basics. Grab a textbook already and get busy. Patently busy.

reply to post by Korg Trinity


Everything within the universe communicates. Sometimes people think that only living creatures communicate, that is kinda BS, it is the communication between sun and the planets which has created this order. It is the communication between the atom and the sub-atomic particles which has created that order.

It is the communication between the government and the people which has created that order.

Mis-communication can cause huge problems, in living sense, and suppose non-living sense.

It boggles the mind.

Just imagine what we will find in the next 50-100 years

Truly mind blowing.