The New Religion

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by lowki

 

calling people sheeple because they believe something is what i'm talking about. the only possible way to not be a sheeple is to be a nihilist (and even that is a sort flip side sheepishness by your definition). and i'm sorry, that's just too depressing of a lifestyle and thought process for my tastes.

nihlism is a form of sheeplement.

what i'm trying to point out is, as long as you aren't personally the one pulling the strings (and consciously aware of it) of the rest of the people, then you are by definition a sheeple yourself, as you are only told what the real string pullers want you to know. if some guy tells you he saw something or read something or got special secret knowledge about something and you believe him, you immediately become his sheep by your definition.

I didn't give you a definition of sheeple.

What I meant was the expectation that a sheppard will protect you from the "big bad wolves".
Not taking responsibility for your own well being.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by OrphenFire

 

i think we're going to find out alot of things very soon, however, many of us will be surprised, since we've made decisions regarding other people and their free will, based on our own laziness. to stand in judgement of something, you really do need to know what it really means, and conversely, to believe it, you should find out, what it really means. to follow something you don't know anything about and don't plan on learning further about, because it is politically or socially expedient, is just sheer laziness. to condemn something you don't know anything about and don't plan on learning further about, because it is politically and socially expedient is just sheer laziness. in effect, i think EVERYONE (believer and unbeliever) will be surprised.

I agree that it is lazy to simply condemn or follow anything with no understanding of it. The word is called: prejudice. Pre-judicial judgement is the condemning or following of anyone or anything with no prior knowledge of that person or thing. I condemn religion with a very good understanding of it. I have read the Bible thoroughly, and I still enjoy reading it. I own the Bhagavad Gita, and I enjoy reading it as well. I do not follow any religion, though. I just learn from the good lessons for myself. I don't need some prophet or preacher to learn it for me.

Seems we are not accomplishing much in regards to a new religion, what we are doing is what all others have done through the ages, look for help and hope outside ourselves,

Our ancestors knew we were imperfect and lived in an imperfect world, this is why they looked for a savior, one who would bring peace, comfort, put an end to starvation, and death, yes, we fear death.

You can take it back as far as some of the first burial rituals where symbolically, red Ochre was spread on the body and people were buried in the fetal position, or the Egyptians and there mummification process.

The association of ochre with burial indicates that the inhabitants had made the mental leap of associating the coloured pigment with death. Such symbolic thought spurred human progress, allowing the development of sophisticated language and mathematics.

"The red ochre meant something to them, exactly what we do not know, but it is not inconceivable that they painted their dead with red ochre," says Erella Hovers.

"It is an example of symbolic thought, the ochre symbolized death. The humans at this time behaved in a way that was not just functional but symbolic as well," she added.

news.bbc.co.uk...

We are still so Egyptian,

Such symbolic thought spurred human progress, allowing the development of sophisticated language and mathematics.

Here is the interesting part, it spurred human progress,

take it from that thought.

Were we designed to progress naturally?

reply to post by OrphenFire

I think that is what you are getting at with your questions of a new religion. Something that would bring about a utopia on earth, or at least make earth a better place. It's not gonna happen in our lifetimes without, as I said, divine intervention or a massive evolution.

Could we evolve, and evolve in theory, through learning through and from one another, and teaching one another, like so many ATS Members are doing.

I have been on the site for a little over a year and a half and I have really seen a number of members grow and expand by leaps and bounds during that time period, in their perspectives, attitudes and overall degrees of knowledge.

No one is forcing them to be here, and people are truly here of their own volition with a passion for learning, and understanding.

The Internet carries our discussions here on ATS a lot further and wider than just ATS too.

How long would evolution take to occur in a world, with honest interaction, from sea to sea, coast to coast, continent to continent, like the Internet is providing, and forums like ATS are?

I might be fooling myself, but I would like to think it could happen more quickly than any of us really feel its safe or dare to imagine.

Thanks for posting. Great replies.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Seems we are not accomplishing much in regards to a new religion, what we are doing is what all others have done through the ages, look for help and hope outside ourselves,

Rome wasn't built in a day, and the ecumenical council at Nicaea sure didn’t last just a day.

Rome won’t be torn down in a day either. Yet it is safe to say that the Holy Roman Bible would never have been written had that ecumenical council not been enjoined.

The first step is the process of discussion, and history tells us, that in fact members of all the known religions were called to participate in that Council and the forming of the New Religion.

Imagine what that must have been like as the great orators, priests, philosophers, and their scribes, each took their turn presenting their ideas and outlining their case.

It’s a process and our new on demand world can make us rather demanding, but…it takes time to create a Masterpiece.

Never despair, Underdog is here!

The only true "Onenness" is accepting that there are 7 billion "Ones". we are one by being many different "ones"

Our differences are what unite us, and make us similar.

Everything else would be hive-mind like.

Unification is not good. what you propose is uniformity.
There are seven billion religions and PsOV. Thats what makes us "One"

we are one, by being different to each other.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Hhhhmmm. I never thought about the fact that forums like ATS could be providing the mental catalysts to spur evolutionary growth. You may be right. It needs to spread much further, though. The impoverished people in Africa and other places need help. They struggle to merely survive each day.

Wouldn't it be strange and ironic if those people were the first to evolve? I can just imagine if suddenly an entire village in Sudan made the news because they somehow acquired an inherent wisdom and understanding that put an end to the violence and poverty that plagues their country.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


S & F for you, Pro-Trav!
A thoughtful question, you propose. However, I feel it is destined to accomplish little, sorry to say. Religion, to those whom it is important, is something they live each day. It is not some exercise in “what if”, it is truth. You see, when one sets up the idea of creating their own religion, one has then placed man as the center of all. This is a fundamental flaw from the beginning for most believers, for they place God at the center of all and man is diligently seeking Him.

Constantine, the Great attempted to usurp Christianity in the early fourth century AD when he claimed to have had a vision, and set about to embrace the religion often derided by previous emperors of Rome. He had church leaders to call a council and come up with a statement of doctrine. He had only one demand as emperor of Rome. He said he cared not about doctrine but only wanted unity. Obviously, he wanted unity to make it easier to control the people and use religion for the benefit of Rome. Your admonition of coming up with what we can all agree on as a foundation for a new religion is similar to what Constantine did.

My personal feeling is that religion is not something man can “manufacture”, except as an exercise in futility. Unity is not and should not be the primary goal of religion. Religion has to be an individual, life long journey of seeking truth. That is a spiritual journey and it involves more than the mind. It involves the very soul of each of us. If we find commonality in that journey, that’s wonderful. But, we are each responsible for our own soul and its well being. A “common religion” would end up serving no one, IMHO.


................................................

reply to post by ProTo Fire Fox

You wrote this thread here, and at a certain time. There is nothing you could of done to change that. At this point in time I was going to write this reply, that was always going to happen. Where we are now, that is all due to small, insignificant things that alter us through out our day. The reason you wrote this thread at 4:42 instead of 4:41 is because for one minute, you thought about doing something else, whether it be today or 10 years ago. I'm going off subject here so I'll try to bring it back...

Actually I was multitasking, between a Rum and Coke, listening to the Who’s Join Together, and laying out the thread in my mind.



It is though as you point out all a matter of Freewill as to whether we all Join Together, to forge our own collective destinies or whether you are to consigned to having them dictated to us.

Yet while many both lament and fear, a New World Order, and a One World Religion dictated to us, that too can only happen through an abdication of our Freewill to allow it to happen.

About the only thing that might prevent that, and create something better, is if in fact we can join together, using our own freewill to formulate some direction and some guiding principles we could all freely agree up.

Thanks for your wonderful post.


[edit on 11/4/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by Xtraeme
This led me to the conclusion that for something like this to be truly grass roots it would require all people to have access to the same tools. Such that each person could help find new interpretations and commonalities that would grow the subject in an open and progressive manner.

I think Terrence McKenna had a rather profound idea when he distributed his Timewave Zero application. By opening it up to the public he was allowing other people to use their own sequences (King Wen, Sheliak, etc) and perform their own analysis.

I think a holistic spiritual system needs some sort of tool-set, whether that be meditation, rationalized comparative analysis, or what have you, all put together in a cohesive text. Allowing for each person to become a fisher of spiritual information and to help bring that information back to the group.

The trick is how do we establish the accuracy of this information? Once we start basing it on perceived honesty it sets the stage for abuse.

It's a tricky problem, but one that I think can be solved.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by Xtraeme]

So... sort of an open-source religion? Or more broadly/accurately- an open-source society which allows us all access to the same information (which is uncensored/unsuppressed and instead uniform in boundlessness rather than arbitrary filter)?

I keep coming back to this same idea in life- society being open-sourced. This is partially why I am an Anarchist (as an ideal eventuality). Just like the simplest/core forms of religion/spirit/philosophy call for- we must not resist the flow of a river (i.e. life/nature) but instead flow with it and utilize its flow to carry us where we need to be. Thus an open-sourced society would allow a sort of natural chaos of ideas that would flow/evolve naturally instead of being tainted by coercion or restrictions on info/data. If we truly believe we can achieve a better world, then we must trust ourselves, both individually and collectively, to be able to figure it out. Otherwise we rely upon the tops of the pyramids to direct us, and this usually opresses us (and the environment) and leads us astray, betraying both ourselves and our real communities.

I've always thought it would be a fantastic resource to have free/open academies and wandering philosophers/teachers (as in ideals of the times of ancient Greece) where we could explore these things freely and in-person (similar to what we do on the internet). There would be no curriculum per se, and trust would be kept between teachers/pupils as to what directions educational explorations would go and what resources would be used and how long or short stints would last. If we truly believe our schools to be centers for learning/exploration (rather than indoctrination and preparation for quasi-slavery within the job market) then we have to take a leap and allow more self-directed freedom within schools that functions in a bottom-up manner, ultimately with the pupil(s) guiding with their own curiosity. This, of course, is idealistic, however, I think such an ideal could very well be modified to work within our society/species to VASTLY improve the way we teach our children and offer them the resources to learn on their own. Some real-world examples of this in very successful action include homeschooling and auto-didactic unschooling. I highly recommend looking into the actual results of such alternative/non-compulsory schooling, especially the latter. It usually turns out that not only do kids practicing homeschooling/unschooling turn out happier, more advanced, more educated, and better-adjusted to society, but they also interestingly score higher on standardized tests than their schooled counterparts.

It seems, in many ways however, that the internet has become a sort of digital testing ground for a bottom-up, non-hierarchical playground of ideas and conversation. It's not always pretty, but it has produced some serious/important gems that would not have existed without it.

Sorry if that sounded all too cryptic, but considering the flow (there it is again!) of our conversation, I believe most will understand.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Seems we are not accomplishing much in regards to a new religion, what we are doing is what all others have done through the ages, look for help and hope outside ourselves,

I've accomplished alot looking within and putting it into words I've seen contemporarily.

Our ancestors knew we were imperfect and lived in an imperfect world, this is why they looked for a savior, one who would bring peace, comfort, put an end to starvation, and death, yes, we fear death.

I'm quite willing to be such.
But would you accept me as such?

I made a post earlier describing a new belief system:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The idea of a one world religion is absurd. What's it going to be based on? The spiritual truth? When it comes to the bigger picture, we don't even know what the ultimate truth is. We are all stumbling about in the dark. We all have our own opinions but that's all they are. Why do you think we have so many different religious beliefs, defining who we are, the nature of God or if it even exists. All humans must walk their own path & find their own truth and at the same time recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others. As long as they are not harming anyone, then what's the problem. Tolerance is the one thing humanity needs more than anything right now and that's all we need. Subscribe to tolerance.

[edit on 11-4-2010 by kindred]

reply to post by romanmel

S & F for you, Pro-Trav!
A thoughtful question, you propose. However, I feel it is destined to accomplish little, sorry to say. Religion, to those whom it is important, is something they live each day. It is not some exercise in “what if”, it is truth. You see, when one sets up the idea of creating their own religion, one has then placed man as the center of all. This is a fundamental flaw from the beginning for most believers, for they place God at the center of all and man is diligently seeking Him.

Ah my beloved and dear Roman friend. There is so much wisdom in what you say and accuracy in history too.

Yet before Rome dictates the New Religion to the plebes and slaves, I thought it only fitting to give them an opportunity to come up with their own!

Forgive this bit of folly as a fit of benevolence overwhelmed me.

Truth is being a dictator is such a tedious and time consuming job, I thought I might trick the plebes and slaves into doing a bit of the work.

In all seriousness, I still think we all have the chance to become more religiously tolerant of others, if only trough providing a forum and venue, where people of all different faiths and beliefs, feel safe in sharing and revealing them to one another.

Without almost any exception, everyone posting thus far to the thread has been exceptionally tolerant.

Which is why I know they are bound to love the New Religion Rome cooks up for them this time, I am thinking of prominently featuring Yogi Bear in this one and Boo Boo too of course.

Barney the Purple Dinosaur’s Agent simply wanted to large a percentage and upfront money.

Such a pity.

Thanks for posting my friend.

Well since you and I tend to think and agree along the same lines. First I do think the New World Order is inevitable and the correct natural progression. Although it seems to be in hyper-speed for some reason. I heard somewhere our timeline is years behind and measures had to be taken to get on target.

Anyway - - I think (as someone else pointed out) only philosophy can be a universal "religion" in physical state. A thought "religion". How does one person's thoughts/actions affect another. How do your own thoughts/actions affect yourself.

Quakers might be one to look to. Aquaint yourself with silence. Being comfortable with silent prayer is a fundamental part of the Quaker experience--it is the way by which Friends believe one can come closer to God. Pray. Do not isolate your life from your time of prayer--a Friend's life should be a prayer in itself, and a testimony to what God does in his life. Learn pacifism. Quakers have always been strongly pacifist; they see war as something rejected by true followers of Christ.

It seems very foreign to many - not having a man or woman in a pulpit directing you on how and what to think. Sitting in silence with your own thoughts of "god/creator" - would make some people uncomfortable.

I think believers in something beyond what we see - want and need to congregate. To share their energies.

I would like to see as the beginning of a universal religion - - Prayer Centers. People do equate "god" to beauty. I'm not into ornate - - but would like centers with natural beauty and defused sunlight (stain glass windows are fine - as long as what they depict is neutral).

I actually kind of like Mosques - - where prayers bring their own prayer mats and sit on the floor (seating for elderly and in-firmed should also be included).

So that is what my vision of a universal religion will be. A Sanctuary. A beautiful place of natural beauty and SILENCE. A place where ones own thoughts matter.

As far as specific beliefs - such as communion (which I find barbaric) - those rituals should be done in the privacy of ones own home.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

In the current system profit is always the motive, understand that and a lot of the confusion goes away.

Doctors profit off of abortion. Kaching!

Corporations profit of contraceptives. Kaching!

Should we not look back to the beginning of this "medical system" to find out who, indeed, originated this?

Does it not begin with Moses "serpent on a pole"? Perhaps this was used as some sort of charm against the plague. Or perhaps Moses had some knowledge of alchemy. Either way, the serpent on the pole was associated with healing or protection.


Do we not still use this same symbol today in denoting the medical profession? Does not the serpent on a pole also look strikingly familiar as our dollar symbol as well? Money and big pharma. Snakes on poles.

One theory on the origin of the dollar sign:

That it derives from the symbol used on a German Thaler. According to Ovason (2004), on one type of thaler one side showed the crucified Christ while the other showed a serpent hanging from a cross, the letters NU near the serpent's head, and on the other side of the cross the number 21. This refers to the Bible, Numbers, Chapter 21 (see Nehushtan)

en.wikipedia.org...

Did the medical industry not begin with the religious shamans and sorcerers?

If an ailment could not be cured by plant sources, then the shaman had to come up with magic charm. If that did not work, then your illness was because you had displeased the gods. (And of course, the shaman would make intercession for you if you donated all your goods to one of his causes)

"Witches" were actually herbalists who were burned at the stake after the church made a decree that anyone with illness was being punished by God for their sins. The crime of these herbalists was in going against the decree that human suffering was divine judgement, and in trying to alleviate the pain of others through herbal remedies.


To know where the future leads, we must look back to the past.

reply to post by Annee

So that is what my vision of a universal religion will be. A Sanctuary. A beautiful place of natural beauty and SILENCE. A place where ones own thoughts matter.

That is a truly beautiful concept and perphaps even one everyone could agree upon.

Originally the Parthenon in Rome was build to be a spiritual sanctuary for all the Gods and disciplines.

Having a quite place where people could meditate, pray, and commune with the beyond in serene beauty and respect, each to their own thoughts and ends, I think would be wonderfully ideal.

Thanks for sharing that!

Religion shmeligion! Good thread, PT, but I would call it a new (and truly) SPIRITUAL direction or path, if it ever manifests on a big enough scale on this planet. It should never have an official name, spelled beginning with an upper case letter, anyway. The dirty R word is from the Latin RELEGARE, meaning "to bind back or fasten." The very word implies slavery. Ick-o!

It's all about better living through better science. Reject primitive terminology like "paranormal" and "supernatural." Deny rule by secrecy, which is what facilitates rule by cowardice, fear, ignorance and greed.

reply to post by Alethea

Do we not still use this same symbol today in denoting the medical profession? Does not the serpent on a pole also look strikingly familiar as our dollar symbol as well? Money and big pharma. Snakes on poles.

It also looks alot like this.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ad4d8c5696bb.jpg[/atsimg]

Which makes one wonder about DNA manipulation by ancient societies.

It also looks like this.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8ab4d811b856.jpg[/atsimg]

The Treble Cleff that starts all musical scores, and how vibration through music effects our central nervous system and influences our thoughts and emotions.

Yet there is no denying, that at one point, and likely still, we have been bred as a race of slaves.

Most medical doctors will tell you that there is no real medical benefit to male circumcision, yet it was originally the mark of a Hebrew Slave.

Now if our natural bodies were designed to carry and complete a self contained electrical circuit in a contiguous and continuous loop, one might wonder what lobbing off a key portion of the body, like part of the male sexual organ might in fact do to the bodies overall performance.

There are a lot of seldom spoken, and often angrily dismissed things in religions, that in fact manipulation of the highest and lowest order of humans, and that it is done for a monetary profit as well as political control.

Could we all agree that desicrating the human body and altering it should not be a part of a new religion?

As always, great insights and things so much for sharing them.

reply to post by OrphenFire


Some of those "poor natives in grass huts" may be more intune with their spirtual potential if left alone by the white man's religious missionaries.

Funny, want to talk about conspiracies, a real grand daddy of them all is that the NWO is systematically trying to either wipe out or white wash all our planet's indigenous people, the ones who still remember our planets real history and spirituality.

We have two - two (2) African Shaman still alive on our planet (one, Credo is 90 years old).

We have a few Cherokee Shamen (not many that I am aware of).

Once they pass, a piece of Earth's soul is lost.

This video really starts at 2:30 and worth the two hours.

video.google.com...#

[edit on 11-4-2010 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by Dean Goldberry

It's all about better living through better science. Reject primitive terminology like "paranormal" and "supernatural." Deny rule by secrecy, which is what facilitates rule by cowardice, fear, ignorance and greed.

Thanks my friend, I think that is something we all might be able to agree upon. Common sense simple approaches leaving things in human hands, and what humans can create?