Sell-off in US Treasuries Raises Sovereign Debt Fears

Originally posted by xxshadowfaxx
Call me crazy, call me stupid, call me whatever you want.

I believe the governments are trying to keep the economy as stable as possible for as long as possible. They are trying to stop it from crashing for as long as they can. Why? Because I honestly believe that something major is going to happen to earth in 2012, and they know it. This is why they are spending so much money. They are preparing themselves and a select few to survive, while not telling the rest of the public. Their only favor to us, is not letting the system crash until it absolutely has to. Then the world will be thrown into chaos, while they go and hide in their underground shelters and hope to survive whatever is coming. Just look at denver airport. Just look at the georgia guidestones. Just look at the seed vault. And most importantly, just look at how the government seems to have made no plans whatsoever for a future beyond 2012. Every major economy in the world has a foreseen crash in 2012. All national debts are due, which can't be paid back. We're talking war. When one can't pay the other, they do what drug dealers do to each other. Shoot first. Enjoy what is left the economy. And hope I am wrong.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by xxshadowfaxx]

I agree, but Shadowfaxx, this is not what those going through it want to hear. They don't want the entire big picture, just the economy now.
But here is the tricky part:
There has been 'chatter on the net' about all kinds of 'decapitating events' and this is just a big distraction for the US populous so they won't see the inflation until it is too late. The Militias being arrested all over the US is another of these decisive maneuvers design to distract from the fact that there is a major event (natural) that occurs every 3k to 4k years (that is for another thread) but the need for more money is because they need to complete a few D.U.M.B.s. Yes one affects the other but until US populous gets off its collective duff, go get the darn proof and shove it up their "sun don't shine" then we are all (world) messed up.
Sorry for not getting the name, but one on this thread was hoping we can go back to being self sufficient (farms/family businesses) and it is too late for that. We really need to find a way to bypass the rich so they are made poor so they are in the same boat as us. This will change the tide and governments will have to tell us exactly what is going on once their fiat money can no longer be made.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

You still haven't explained what the OP meant when he/she said "Get out of debt now... if you remember the late 70's early 80's you'll know what I mean" is referring to. That's what I asked him.

Can't speak for the OP, but I can relate what happened.

That was a horrible time in our history under a rabid Progressive President named Carter at the worst possible time.

As is always the case throughout history, Progressives when they get some power take actions that destroy economies. We had good little Progressives running around telling us all that we were being robbed by the big oil companies and consumer advocates coming out of the woodwork. Buying and spending tanked and companies went belly up overnight.

I was working for various Oil Companies and Industrial Construction and Mining outfits. These companies were pressured by lying politicians like Carter and publicity hounds like Nader to keep prices artificially low. So low that they could not pay for new drilling or development of new products which is a suicide mission.

On top of that, Progressive policies always lead to deep debt, unemployment as the companies run out of disposable cash and a devaluation of the dollar. As the debt is piling up, there comes a point were the only way out is inflation to bring the value of the dollar down.

We are now reaching that point again. The only way to dig out of all this money printing and drunken spending by the Progressives is to let the inflation Genie out of the bottle. Soon you will start to hear regular reports of the interest rates going up. Prices on all goods and services will start to climb quickly. What your dollar would buy today, it will take two to buy tomorrow. You might think you have enough, but if prices double and your income does not go up at all, do you?

Ah yes here come all the right wingers to blame it all on "progressives"

Tell ya what.

Why don't all you people who forget that Nixon is the one to have defaulted on the US obligations with the closing of the gold window and are good for nothing else than to bash "progressives" go back to living in your cave.

Maybe one day a "progressive" will come along and give you fire and the wheel. Lord knows no right thinking conservative would experiment with anything "progressive" like that. They are happy living in the past.

Hey, your the one who dragged politics into this.

Anybody who believes that the economic mess is the fault of only one side of the coin doesn't deserve the time of day.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Sarkazmon]

reply to post by Sarkazmon


No, but the progressives are going to pour gasoline on the fire.

Why don't we address the issue, like the Fiat currency and the Banking Cabal.

Let me put it this way, if the dollar is worth 3 cents on the dollar.

Where did that 97 cents go?

You got it, right into the bankers pockets.

reply to post by Sarkazmon


Really? Way off topic and you have been on ATS long enough to know there will always be people that derail with the left/right fight.

If any of us here want to really work together in the near future to save our world, our countries, our towns, we really need to get off this left/right train. I know it's hard, but try hard. We can start by not doing it-the infighting- and ignoring those that do, and pointing out when someone is keeping it going.

Go back and read.

I'm not the one who brought the politics into this thread

I'm making a point.

Originally posted by Sarkazmon
Ah yes here come all the right wingers to blame it all on "progressives"

Tell ya what.

Why don't all you people who forget that Nixon is the one to have defaulted on the US obligations with the closing of the gold window and are good for nothing else than to bash "progressives" go back to living in your cave.

Maybe one day a "progressive" will come along and give you fire and the wheel. Lord knows no right thinking conservative would experiment with anything "progressive" like that. They are happy living in the past.

Hey, your the one who dragged politics into this.

Anybody who believes that the economic mess is the fault of only one side of the coin doesn't deserve the time of day.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Sarkazmon]

I think progressive dont care about sides unless it is their own. They use them to get what they want and sides is something made up of you and me. And did you know Hitler was a progressive? Sometimes you need to look around and see what company you are keeping.

Originally posted by j2000
reply to post by xxshadowfaxx

 

Well at least someone is paying attention. Good post.

Money does not disappear until the Fed. Res. raises interest and takes it back. So the wealth only get transferred to someone else.
Where the hell did 10's of Trillions go missing to over the last decade????

Anyone? Anyone?

Bueller?? Bueller??


The biggest problem with the next couple of years and what is happing now is, there are too many unanswered questions. If there are serious questions left by several different peoples of the past that have a common point, would it not be smart to try and answer them?
I think they have the answer already.

www.google.com...=en&q=Rumsfeld%2C+9%2F11+and+%242.3+trillion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=trillions+missing+investigation+DoD+2001&gs_rfai=&fp=bcdf8cbbf 06dc4f

many links starting 9/10/01 - enjoy!

Originally posted by Jakes51
The economy is in no way near any kind of recovery, and sadly, what the American people are being exposed to is smoking mirrors by their leaders, economists, and the MSM. They are being duped.

Yup, that's the thing that's going to really tick people off - they were lied to by their (so-called) trusted elected leaders.

You have uncle sham telling everyone things will start getting better now, and so they go about their lives as if nothing bad will happen tomorrow. They buy a new home believing in what their lying ass leader has told them. They may buy a new car and finance that too. Some will even have another child or two, all based upon the words of their (so-called) trusted leader: "Things are starting to improve, so don't worry citizens, go out and spend spend spend." Then next month they loose their job, then their house and whatever equity they might have had in it, and then their credit is screwed for the next dozen years.

If there is one good side affect to all of this it's that MANY people have had their credit hosed and shot to hell and it will be many many years before they can borrow any money ever again. They won't be buying any new homes, home furnishings, new cars, etc., thus you can count these people out of any recovery plan based upon spending, as they simply won't be able to afford to buy stuff on credit for years to come, which is good for them as they can't mess up by living beyond their means. Imagine, millions and millions won't be able to apply for the Best Buy credit card come xmas so they can spend beyond their means. They won't even be able to get a cell phone with a contract if that too is dependent on good credit. All this is good of course, because it will keep them out of credit trouble for some time to come. Unfortunately though, finding another job with bad credit can become a nightmare for them too.

Oh, and there is still another good side affect of all this: Planet Earth thanks you for your voluntary reduction in consumption.

[edit on 30-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

reply to post by Sarkazmon


Ok corrected, I must have missed your last line, but you came off pretty agressive and political when all the posts I was reading were about the general degradation of our economy and that it might be just a cover for something bigger. Maybe you read the first page and missed the general mood from the second page on?

Originally posted by Sarkazmon
Ah yes here come all the right wingers to blame it all on "progressives"

Actually you are parroting what you have been taught to say. Progressives exist on both the far right and left. Me, I'm an Independent as far as voting, a moderate in most political matters.


[edit on 3/30/2010 by Blaine91555]

reply to post by Sarkazmon

Ah yes here come all the right wingers to blame it all on "progressives"

I'm about as "Right Wing" as you get (though, I'd say, socially progressive in a way) And I don't blame "Progressives" as much as I blame "Conservatives: IE, Republicans"

While the social policies may differ from president to president, the failures of Jimmy Carter (as much as I despise the old loon), was essentially the failings of the Federal Reserve chairman.

Paul Volker

Now, many people say Jimmy killed the economy, and our hero (cough cough) Reagan came in to save the day..

However..

Volker acting as undersecretary of the Treasury (1969-1974) actually assisted or primarily drafted every important economic decision in the Carter Presidency. Volker was actually the one who drafted the decision to end the Gold Convertibility and brought down Bretton Woods.

So you would think the next sitting President would ensure this guy gets the boot, and brings in fresh blood?

WRONG.

President Reagan kept Mr. Volker around. In fact, he served as the 12th Chairman of the Federal Reserve from 1979-1987. This, in effect, means that this guy as the captain of our monetary policy did not see just one massive recession BUT TWO!!!

So we blame Carter for the bad economy, but keep the same economist, then praise Reagan for saving us? By spending money ironically. Volker is still given credit for capping the recession of the 1970's.. however, it was HE who introduced mass inflation to the economy.. we went from "stagflation" or "high inflation" which capped at 13.5% in 1981, almost 3 years after he stepped in as Chairman of the Board.

But goes further..

He is preceded by Alen Greenspan, who served under Bush 1.. Bush lost his reelection because of the semi unpopular war with Iraq (not nearly as unpopular as the second desert-storm) but mostly due to THE BAD ECONOMY.

So the next sitting President would give him the boot? No, once again common sense is tossed out the window. President Clinton keeps him around.. a Liberal and a Conservative using the same economic advisers even though you would think their monetary policy would be polar opposites?

Whats more.. Bush2 kept Greenspan around until Bernake.

Volker is credited with creating the "Modern" US Economy, focused around mass spending but higher Interest Rates .. Greenspan is credited with going one step further and lowering the interest rates while keeping spending high .. this in effect led to the incredible expansion of wealth through credit via consumer and corporate loans/leveraging in the economy. Greenspan is the Father of Bubbles.. he brought about the cycle program, regardless of political power.. these men who don't even have to hide behind the curtains because 98% of Americans can't name them anyways, are dictating our financial policy.

Greenspan is Retired, he acts as a consultant to the Government.

Volker, guess where he's at? Chair of the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board... under Obama.

Full circle.

Please people.. keep your politics out of it, because Economics is color blind.. they cannot see Red, Blue, Green or White.. they see shades of gray, and they could give a rats ass what party we support or elect, so long as we spend every penny we've got.

EDIT: And if people think it started with Carter, please don't get that inpression, the cycle was long before that. Before Volker was William G Miller, who inherrited an economy with 6.5% inflation (not as high as Volker). However it should be noted that Miller, Volker, Greenspan and Bernake ALL subscribed to "Keynesian" logic.. that when the economy contracts, inflate the monetary supply and buying power will induce economic euphoria to bring about economic expansion (with or without wealth generation). Before Miller was Burns, who was also a Keynesian.

He served under Carter as Chairman of the Board, and Reagan's Secretary of the Treasury.



[edit on 3/30/2010 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by Sarkazmon
They are happy living in the past.

Therein lies the flaw in the Progressive dialogue.

We learn by trial and error, which means we learn from history. Ignore history to you own peril.

* 1+1=2

* You can not spend more than you have.

Both eternal truths.



[edit on 3/30/2010 by Blaine91555]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Makes a person wonder who is really in charge

But then, that's why we are all on ATS.

No doubt it is a team effort of failures. Some idea's fail more miserably than others though. Taxing and spending is a fools mission and always has been.

The people most at blame for this are the American Citizens. American Citizens seem to want to have their cake and eat it too.

The Lions share of federal funding goes to the Military, Medicare, and social security. Americans scream bloody murder if anybody even thinks about cutting any of these wasteful programs. They also vehemently oppose any sort of tax increase, yet they also want the best schools, plenty of police on the streets, and no potholes on the roads. Americans insist the government keep their home prices high, yet they do not want hyper-inflation when they get what they wished for.

Americans will have to make tough choices. They will either have to pay a VAT or have no Medicare. They will either have to give up a few stealth bombers and compromise some military security (as if stealth bombers are really keeping us safe) or we have to give up our economic security.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
And if people think it started with Carter, please don't get that inpression, the cycle was long before that. Before Volker was William G Miller, who inherrited an economy with 6.5% inflation (not as high as Volker). However it should be noted that Miller, Volker, Greenspan and Bernake ALL subscribed to "Keynesian" logic.. that when the economy contracts, inflate the monetary supply and buying power will induce economic euphoria to bring about economic expansion (with or without wealth generation). Before Miller was Burns, who was also a Keynesian.

He served under Carter as Chairman of the Board, and Reagan's Secretary of the Treasury.

Keep going. FDR comes to mind. I'm sure it goes all the way back to the caveman.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
The people most at blame for this are the American Citizens. American Citizens seem to want to have their cake and eat it too.

Close to the truth.

If I walk up to a two year old with a bag of chocolate and keep handing them pieces until they puke, who is to blame?

In this case, chocolate buys votes among other things.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


Yes, it's Americans fault. What a sack of # excuse.

If politicians and lawyers had backbones, all this crap would not be the way they are. That's right, if they had some balls to stop the MIC and the unlawful Federal Reserve-I want to know where the Amendment is for that piece of crap institution is. As for the IRS, still wondering where the SC decision is that allowed a new tax on labor. Still cannot seem to find it that overruled the other TWO SC decisions that stated NO NEW tax was created by the 16th amendment.

Yes, all the people screaming about the wars, the out of control spending, the Federal Reserve, the Income taxes, YES IT IS THEIR FAULT.

Pfffft!

reply to post by Blaine91555


Absolutely, it does.. perhaps not in the same way, but money has always had outside controllers, away from Government. Even Louis XIV, considered the strongest, most consolidated King in Western History, the last Absolute Monarch, was deeply in debt to outside sources.

I just find it amazing that people who parrot the "Party Card" NEVER, EVER, EVER, question the appointments of financial advisers.. considering the economy collapsed under Bush, you'd expect at the very least Obama to bring in a new team.. every single one of his advisers served Bush at the very least in consulting capacity. Even Greenspan, Kohn, Volker, Bernake, Paulson etc .. the architects of disaster. Their Keynesian Logic, that has destroyed this economy on the principles of debt = wealth.

It's downright infuriating. But go out to the streets and ask who the Chairman of the Board is, the President of the Board, Secretary and Under Secretary of the Treasury, President of the Economic Advisers Forum etc..

Guarantee you will get nothing but blank stares.

reply to post by Blaine91555


To extend your metaphor, if I see you handing out chocolate to some kid and I say "Stop that! That kid is going to get sick if he eats any more," I am the bad guy. I am the spoil sport.

In the Mid 2000's, Greenspan noted "irrational exuberance' in the housing market. He could have slammed the brakes and saved us all a bunch of misery. Instead, he let the chocolate eating orgy continue and now we are all covered in puke.