It's not about that, anti-religion ATSers

Often on ATS we hear a certain segment of the population insist that religious beliefs aren't true. "They aren't logical, there isn't evidence, they can't possibly be the most true set of historical facts because. . ." This discussion continues ad nauseum with no progress whatsoever being made to advance the position that whatever you have spiritual faith in, that thing is necessarily rediculous.

I think that maybe that discussion is missing the mark. Being agnostic or atheist is the most logical choice, if what you have set out to do in your life as a human is to form a belief system which is as accurate - in the sense that it is in the most direct agreement with objective reality - as possible. I think that this premis is erroneous.

Most don't set out just to aquire true beliefs. This is isn't what life is about. We as humans don't just go around making observations, and then using them as premises in logical arguments which are then used to form beliefs. Of course, we do do some of this(and some of us more than others), but it is not the end game, for most people. Most people - consciously or not - spend a tremendous amount of time forming a worldview(or system of beliefs) which is tolerable to them. The most important beliefs in this worldview are one's beliefs about themselves, the world(meaning external reality), and their relationship to it.

Beliefs about God, and religious beliefs in general, often form a very fundamental part of an agreeable worldview. Religious beliefs - whether or not they are true - are a coping mechanism. They give people hope, happiness, and a sense of understanding in times when more realistic, logically justifiable beliefs are lacking in these respects. These things are important to people; they make people feel better about themselves, the world, and their relationship to it. I think that the need that most human beings have to hold a tolerable wordview trumps whatever commitment they may have to the more abstract notion of logically justifiable beliefs.

The truth is that life often sucks, the world can be a very cruel and unfair place, and one which is very difficult to make sense of. Especially in terms of the human aspects, which are more important to humans than the material scientific aspects. Given that we as humans are not just logic based information gathering automatons, we cannot be expected to behave as though we are. We have to satisfy our human need for a tolerable belief system, especially with respect to ourselves, to world, and our relationship to it. Religion provides an outline for such a worldview. It may include some beliefs that are apparently in disagreement with reality, but those disagreements are not important enough - at least for many people - to abondon this satisfactory/tolerable way of understanding their place in the universe. Science and logically justifiable beliefs cannot provide what religion can, at least for many people.

The draw of religion is not that it is apparently the most accurate set of historical facts. There is a reason people use the word "faith" in conjunction with religious beliefs. The religious worldview is not supported by a compelling body of evidence, but it doesn't need to be. The draw of religion is that - whether or not the facts are right - it offers something that a scientifically rigorous belief system does not. In addition to whatever sense of contentment religion brings to an individual, it alo provides premises for justifying a system of ethics on a societal level. Such justification cannot be found when looking at a list of all the true facts.

Some of you may insist that if this is what is going on, then you want them to admit it. "Admit that you know your beliefs are necessarily factual!" Nope. The point is that people believe these things - that is the satisfying/fulfilling part. They don't have to admit anything, especially when they don't agree that the beliefs are unfounded. I'm not saying that people of faith secretly know that their beliefs are not as easily justifiable given the evidence. I'm saying the such justification is not so important when it comes to these issues, and people don't need hard science to come to hold beliefs that give them a sense of contentment.

Others of you will say that you would be okay with this state of affairs, so long as people didn't commit violence in the name of these beliefs which you believe to be false. Since violence is being committed in the name of religion, it is somehow "important" for you to try to talk all religious people out of their faith. It's not. That's missing the point. Violence in the name of anything should be discouraged. More people in this country commit violence in the name of money than religion. Should you go try to talk people out of believing money is important? My point is that you can and should discourage, try to prevent, and punish, violence in the name of anything. "Let" people believe whatever they want, just don't let them hurt people over it.

Don't you see that all this nonsense about how religion is absurd and not supported by evidence is missing the point? You're barking up the wrong tree. It's not about that. There's a reason you've never talked anyone out of their religious beliefs. Instead of banging your head against the same wall over and over again doesn't it make sense to ask why your argument isn't working?

Of course there are people who derive a more pleasant worldview from science; these people will be agnostic or atheist for the most part. I am one of these people. Most are not, and that's okay. We're not little science-doing robots, we're humans. We can be expected to act in a way that fulfills our human needs.

[edit on 3/21/10 by OnceReturned]

beautiful and wellwritten post
i can only say that i absolutely share your opinion!

S & F

edit to add; WOW, was actually my first response

[edit on 21-3-2010 by kn0wh0w]

So, what happens when a person dies and Jesus isn't there at the bus station to pick them up?

There's the "Where's My Cheese?" infinity loop issue to be concerned about. Unless, of course, you actually don't believe in a conscious afterlife. In that case, you're right, and the most charitable thing to do is teach people to believe whatever makes them enjoy life the most. After all, if there's no afterlife, and no possibility of being stranded in a expectation blind alley, then screw it.

If, however, there is an afterlife, and if you've been programmed to expect to see Jesus or Mohamed or singing curly fries or whatever you've been programmed to assume will geet you as you slip down that lighted tunnel, and you discover that no one is there to process you in as you expected, then what now? Will you have the capacity to realize, eventually, that Jesus isn't simply stuck in traffic, but that he's not coming? And if so, what's your first move?

This is you for eternity, so why wouldn't you want to find out as much as possible about what actually is, and what is actually campfire ghost stories that have become religions over the centuries? The point is not to win an argument, but to trigger the potential for rumination in the minds of people who will definitely be strandid in Where's MY Cheese land if their personal savior doesn't exist, or doesn't exist as they will demand that he/she/it exists.

This isn't about life on planet earth. This is about prepping for afterlife. Like a first-aid kit in the trunk. Or a gun in the glovebox.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by OnceReturned

The intelligence radiating from the OP burnt a hole through my computer screen and slapped me in the face.
This is human self-awareness at its finest.
S&F


[edit on 21-3-2010 by jeanvaljean]

exactly, OP.

Its not about always being perfectly right. Its about coming up with a reasonable idea to explain the unexplainable.

Atheism and agnosticism dont have answers to things like where the universe came from. They are right on some points about our reality, but it is only half the picture.

God as the answer to WHY and not HOW. I dont see why both perspectives cant be right.

I find that if you claim that you believe in some sort of "god"(whatever you define that as) the atheists automatically label you as a closed-minded christian.

Condemning other peoples beliefs is futile when your likely to be completely wrong yourself. Offering you opinions should never provoke an attack.

reply to post by OnceReturned

Religious beliefs - whether or not they are true - are a coping mechanism. They give people hope, happiness, and a sense of understanding in times when more realistic, logically justifiable beliefs are lacking in these respects.

I guess this is one of my biggest gripes with religious beleifs of all nature. If your environment is not good enough that you can derive hope and happiness in your present and future through pragmatism and logic then you should probably be actively working to change your environment.

Religion allows people to escape reality by hoping for a better future with no acheivable way of making that happen. This encourages inaction, actively allwoing the environment to stay negative, and encouraging it to digress.

reply to post by OnceReturned


Pretty god-damn good OR...

Most don't set out just to aquire true beliefs. This is isn't what life is about. We as humans don't just go around making observations, and then using them as premises in logical arguments which are then used to form beliefs

No...this is exactly what we do - some on a higher level than others though.

Don't you see that all this nonsense about how religion is absurd and not supported by evidence is missing the point? You're barking up the wrong tree

Listen, this is a side issue for many of 'those' that you are labeling here...that arguement is used to gain the higher ground, when in truth the actual issue is that many a person is tired of zealots exercising their right to free speech.

If an individual believes in a higher power/god/it, than yay for them - but rather than be content in their beliefs, they find the need to make sure everyone hears about it.


And this should have been addressed in your OP...

You are children.

You didn't need to go there...the content of your OP should, and did, speak for itself, no need to sling that crap.


As to the rest - well done...a well thought out OP and spot on for the most part. Look out for more from you OR.

It comes down to personality i think. I'd rather face the truth using logic and reason, live my life on the basis of what i know innately is right or wrong than become delusional with illogical belief systems and superstitions. While i acknowledge i may be wrong, i am certain that an afterlife sounds absolutely repulsive to me...not just monotheistic but any brand of afterlife. Lying to yourself and perpetuating it through each generation until it becomes blind faith and then blind faith becoming truth or an admirable trait is very sad in my eyes. Im glad it makes you happy and able to live your life, just don't expect me to respect you for living such a life.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by Solomons]

Its not really about an escape from a sad, unfulfilling life. Maybe for christians, but thats more a product of how they were raised.

You can hold religious beliefs without submitting to any mainstream, or even existent, religion. I just find it odd that people so completely refuse "god"(in whatever form). Causation is certainly real, and to not contemplate what the origional cause of all causation might be seems almost inhuman.

Theres nothing wrong with being content with what is objectively evident in the world, but i dont see how someone like that (who bases everything on visible, evident processes) can accept that the relative universe just popped into existence just because.

You dont have to accept christian god. but, its pretty hard to believe. that all this stuff that exists for billions of light years is the result of some measurable process.

Its a gap in reason and understanding that cannot be ignored. It is THE question, and one that atheists frequently ignore or explain away with waves (or something untrue)

Not that my beliefs are more correct then your non-beliefs. but, i think its healthy to reason these kinds of illusive questions.

So your saying some people can just take things head on without the cushion of religion to help you? Are you also saying that some people don't need religion to decide the morals that feel right to them?

I'm not trying to make your post say something it didn't, I'm just trying to infer on what you said, but what I infer may be wrong.

reply to post by Phlynx



well... those things are true obviously.

Nobody needs religion. I believe in god, but im not religious. I just think god fills a necessary gap in reasoning that no other human concept could hope to fill. And i dont mean god as in big guy with white beard who whips you when your dead, i just mean "that than which there is no greater".

again, you have done the atheist rebuttal thing and grouped me in with organized (likely christian) religion.

Religion is good, religion is bad, religion is medium. There are so many arguments for these things that its not worth discussing. What im getting at is that our end (right now) necessitates a beginning. And, assuming the relative universe does not exist infinitely(which also seems impossible) there must be something which set the ball in motion.

I'm not saying that something should determine my morals or how i act in this life (i do not believe in a traditional christian afterlife). just that, when there is a breakdown in humanities ability to reason something, then it is not unfair to say that the reason is something completely unreasonable.

Religion re-enforces morals. Me, im not always "moral" because im not religious. but that doesn't mean i dont hold religious beliefs. I must, because i cant take no answer for an answer. its just who i am.

Religious beliefs - whether or not they are true - are a coping mechanism. They give people hope, happiness, and a sense of understanding in times when more realistic, logically justifiable beliefs are lacking in these respects.

I totally agree with the above comment, and it's precisely why I think the discard of religion is overdue.

From 2000 years ago until about 100 years ago, the people needed religion. They needed the almighty and the prayers to ease their tough lifestyles. They needed something to look up to.

But the more you look around today, the more religion appears to be less compatible with our current society. The majority of mankind today is better off, and the technology we have simply does not comply peacefully with the disputes that erupt from religious ideologies.

Sure, there are many, many out there today that still need religion, to guide them through the day. But with such advancements in society, the paradigm of wrong springing from religion, as opposed to good, shifts to the negative because of the capabilities of our society today.

Personally I believe the foundation of my upbringing morally did not originate from religion, but from common sense. To be taught to be able to see from another's standpoint. To be able to know if your actions, though benefiting you, would inflict misery to others. Seems basic, but I challenge anyone to bring forward an act of goodness from a religious individual that cannot be carried out by an atheist.

Anyway, just my opinion. The further we advance as society, the more the need to discard the hindrance to us that is religion will become clear.

What you might have overlooked is what many people seem to overlook in their needs or wants to formulate a pleasant and acceptable world view.

Doing that is actually what primarily enables an unpleasant world to exist.

It is in essence saying well if I can convince myself that the world is unpleasant and unfair based on a set of values that pleasantly makes sense of it for me, to the point that I can now accept an unpleasant and unfair world as being other pleasant, tolerable or even a necessity based on those nonfactual faith based assumptions I win.

No in fact I loose and so do the rest of humanity and much of the rest of life on this planet as people in essence abdicate their own inherent responsibility to put it off on a set of imaginary powers and systems.

The world has been steeped in war, violence, scarcity, deprivation and cruelty for 10,000 years for one simple reason and that is that people would prefer to make sense of it in a way that allows them to become blindly and blithely indifferent and accepting of it rather than to put an end to it.

Religion and faith based systems are without a doubt the most dangerous things to humanity and all life on earth as there is.

There comes a time in every child’s life they have to grow up and face responsibility but by and large most of the human population is not doing that, they are simply looking for a pleasant enough way to ignore responsibility.

It is what it is, and what it is, is highly questionable, self defeating and counter productive to human evolution.

It also keeps a very corrupt system entrenched and in power that certainly has no compelling reason of its own to end the chaos that stems from so many people abdicating personal responsibility.

They call them ‘feel good’ solutions for a reason and that’s because they are not a solution at all just a cause to feel good about something.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I agree that organized religion (especially christianity) is a detrement to civil society.

Christians are so pre-occupied with eternal salvation in the afterlife that they disregard all civic duties that would make this world a much better place. Christianity is constantly at odds with the state, with people committing their sovereignty to the eternal leader instead of the real-world leader.

All the social issues that people wory about stem from christianities disregard for the common will and their need to rule over the state. the two cannot co-exist peacefully.

JJ rousseaus ideas on civil religion are a good read on this topic. He proposes a religion that conforms to the dogmas of the state, so that civic duty and a commitment to the common will is enforced by the divine. But, it raises question's about free will, as he proposes people who dont agree can be banished or killed.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by SPACEYstranger]

[edit on 21-3-2010 by SPACEYstranger]

the problem with religion is...us vs. them. religion seperates people into "believers" and "non-believers". then people, depending on their strength of belief, use discriminating behavior often to harm "non-believers", some discreetly and in secret, and others overtly and dramatic.

you missed the point; its not about the beliefs, its more about the cult fact;

if you study the history of our world; control
if you study the history of these religion books; many interpretations(its a book)
if you study how our world works; $$
if you study politics;

you will realize that, the problem is the religion itself, its the fact that people were taught to not think about anything, since all the answers finished with God.

religion is the best way to control our bodies AND Minds;

if you study about our universe; see my signature; you will realize that, it doesnt make sense to believe that a God with our face exists, since there is life everywhere; so, God didnt came here, blabla, it doesnt make sense; I am not saying is not true, I cant know, but it doesnt make any sense, my math tells me that;

the reality is that we dont know nothing about where we live, so, people assume things to make life easier and to make them not think about it, since we cant live without having that understanding;

so, you missed the point; its all about the cult; people should be able to think for themselves and for them to realize what their brains tell them;

so I dont believe in any religion, I dont follow them, that doesnt mean I dont believe in God, creator, whatever ... you would say I am agnostic or whatever, I prefer to not classify myself, I am me and I have an OPINION

[edit on 21-3-2010 by Faiol]

I'd like to thank the OP for an almost perfect post S&F.

My thoughts on it ?

An atheist is a an exception. One who is absolutely truly convinced there are no higher beings around( more intelligent). And as a result forces his ideas on others while attacking every believe or faith. Well if there is anyone the feels I'm talking to you ? You are a close minded petty little fool.
This also counts for Christian, Islamic, Judean, well any other lifestyle, religion and so on.

Faith is a wonderful thing it brings and gives people hope, comfort an ease of mind. You name it.
Where I do feel it's nuts is when people discard or deny the other side.
Like science God did not give you a brain so you will keep it unused and clean.

Where it all goes to hell is where other people start to have the crazy idea to be right and are willing to force their ways on others.
Basically what religion is all about. Fear and punishment are not ever going to be victorious. I know allot of Christians and they are all friends not one enemy among them. Actually I've got no enemies at all.

But from all religions where I came in contact with Christians are the most hypocrite people I know. Everything they do from judging others to committing genocide. They blame the devil or act in Gods will. They use their religion to talk their crimes right and walk away from their responsibilities. Which all goes head first against what Jezus tried to learn them. Love God (IMO Life and everything in and around it) Love yourself for God lives in you and you live in God. Love your enemy. Turn your other cheek if necessary. Be kind help people in need.


But we let it all happen, even on ATS don;t get me wrong I love this subject but the rules say may not lie or give a a knowingly false post. Yet it's full of all different kinds of religion that do all the time.

a really interesting and thought-provoking post.

i, however, disagree. in my view, i believe it is incumbent on me to know what is real and what is not. it does matter to me, intrinsically, whether i feel my life is an illusion or not. since i am an atheist, i believe there is nothing else. nothing else now and nothing else after i die (though i am keenly interested in what other people believe and aspire for myself to be proven wrong).

partially for these reasons, i feel that one of the central purposes of my life is to try and understand my existence and the existence of the environment (the universe). this is a very difficult and frustrating path and i personally feel like i would be needlessly creating obstacles to try and live under the spell of what i believe are egregious, at worst, and silly, at best, illusions of things that aren't real.

since i believe there is nothing else now or after death, one could argue "why not believe, then? what does it hurt?" but i would be lying to myself and it would negatively impact my day-to-day life. to me, being an atheist, with no hesitations, is liberating. i know believers and agnostics hate that of some atheists, but it's not something i feel maligns other people, it's just a personal triumph for which i am proud of myself.

i still have hope, happiness, etc. an absence of belief doesn't strip from me anything that a believer has … except blind faith. believers indicate that religion can give them peace in times of struggle. but i don't want peace in times of conflict if it isn't warranted, particularly when i believe if indeed one can move into peace, it's yourself that does it. the brain is the religion.

it seems believers condemn non-believers as unable to have a system of ethics or principles but, at the risk of sounding pompous, i am far more compassionate and ethical than, in my view, the average joe. i don't believe ethics, morals and principles come from religion. religion hijacked these things (though i don't particularly object to a belief system molded around sound morals and principles). but the systems we have that provoke most of us to do the right thing to ourselves and others comes from our brain and our dna, in my view, and i don't attribute that to a deity.

in fact, this can be looked at as a point against religion. atheists are no more prone to violence or unethical behavior than believers. why is this the case? if religion is the cornerstone of morals and ethics, why are atheists moral and ethical? they shouldn't be. so, in this case, religion is lying. you can have these things without its influence.

Originally posted by SPACEYstranger
Condemning other peoples beliefs is futile when your likely to be completely wrong yourself. Offering you opinions should never provoke an attack.

the beauty of these statements is that one can't tell whether the person who says them is atheist, agnostic or a believer.

Anybody who spends time trying to believe in something, is wasting their energy on Mother Earth. Make the choice now, start seeing or not. Lack of sight is not proof of nonexistence. If that were so, then Cars wouldn't exist, because the bush people of Africa do not concieve of how something like that COULD exist. See my point?

Thanks God our Universe is not formed by people who lack vision beyond their 5 senses.

More importantly, you can then spare the rest of humanity, your version of Good and Bad. When in fact, both people who spend negative energy proving any belief, or lack thereof, they are in fact saying "I don't believe enough in what I believe in, I need others to agree to validate me"

If we take our minds above this positive vs. negative and enter into the quantum realm where something can be both things at once, we will see the emotional engine that drives every living thing on this planet.

A person could then raise his conscience above the squirming amoeba that is Mankind's flesh and see how they fight and bicker within the limitations of their existence. You would see them choosing to look at each other...instead of looking at themselves.

These people, which unfortunately contain both believers and non believers (they are both the same). will never see the truth that's looking right at them. Nor will they ever bother to see themselves in the mirror.

Even still, they will refuse to acknowledge the Universal law of attraction and how it has formed the reality you live in.

The Truth behind every argument or debate, no matter which side, is that neither person believes in what they are feeling. If you believed in what you are feeling, then why would you need validation from anyone other than yourself?

Holy Wars anyone? They are always motivated by either nonbeliever or believer. You are both equally the same. Both sides wants the other to come to it's senses.

When you find your truth, you're absolute truth. You will no longer need validation..you will never again put energy into convincing anybody. Instead, you will LIVE your reality and keep your mouth shut.

If you are still on a search to believe or disbelief, then know that you are operating within a mind that is blind. I don't care what evidence you see in the 3rd dimension or lack thereof.

Perception doesn't dictate truth. Any limitation of your mind is a wall of your perception. Any wall will keep you from finding the truth. Don't spend time and energy showing other people your walls, unless you are seeking help in knocking those walls down.





[edit on 21-3-2010 by manbird12000]