China's strident tone raises concerns in West

Don't forget that the Chinese PLA had no clear command structure at the time because they abolished ranks in 1965. Yeah, they were basically a leaderless mob.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

China - Vietnam War 1979

Thank for that vid in particular, Slayer. Very informative since I wasn't aware of this failed attempt to divert troops from Pol Pot's murderous regime in Cambodia.

China certainly DID learn a painful lesson.

What I've been doing is certainly mere speculation, but it's worrysome when a large population has its back up against the wall. What did come through in the vid was the willingness to sacrifice large numbers of casualties.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Interesting videos, and the Chinese got their tails handed to them in Vietnam. However, they went in their with guns blazing, failing to learn the terrain, and practically with the perception of the Vietnamese as a second-rate foe. They went in their like the bullies, and were they given a big surprise. At the time the Vietnamese had just come off of routing the United States one of the most technologically advanced war machines on the planet, in a campaign that lasted almost 25 years if you want to count the war with the French.

I'm not going to argue over if the US lost The Vietnam war. We did lose in my opinion. However militarily on the battlefield the North Vietnamese rarely bested us the way they did the Chinese.

That's all I'll say about that.

Yes, I have to agree with you, the US bested the Vietnamese in battlefield engagements much of the time during the conflict. However, still the Vietnamese were a worthy foe. They just outlasted the resolve of the US government. It was the politics that defeated the US, and not the performance of the soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors. In all reality they met their objectives as assigned, but only amounting to mere points on a map.

If total war had been declared on the North with the massive bombings followed by a large ground invasion, perhaps the outcome would have been different. However, the reluctance of political leaders to leave no option off the table to break the backs of the North Vietnamese, cost the victory for the US. I think they were weary of the Soviet response if a no-holds barred approach was used against North Vietnam.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by Jakes51]

Originally posted by Jakes51
Yes, I have to agree with you, the US bested the Vietnamese in battlefield engagements much of the time during the conflict. However, still the Vietnamese were a worthy foe. They just outlasted the resolve of the US government. It was the politics that defeated the US, and not the performance of the soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors. In all reality they met their objectives as assigned, but only amounting to mere points on a map.

If total war had been declared on the North with the massive bombings followed by a large ground invasion, perhaps the outcome would have been different. However, the reluctance of political leaders to leave no option off the table to break the backs of the North Vietnamese, cost the victory for the US. I think they were weary of the Soviet response if a no-holds barred approach was used against North Vietnam.

Jake...

That's has to be one of the best level headed responses I've seen in a long time regarding the Vietnam war. The First here on ATS that's for damn sure.

I'll admit, I didn't read the entire thread. I just thought I'd post quickly, and give my two cents.

The United States obviously knew that this arms deal with Taiwan would add a good amount of tension to the already unsettling relationship they have with China. I mean, of course they wanted to supply Taiwan with weaponry in the event they have to defend themselves from China, as futile as it may be. However, this wasn't the main motivator for the United States.

It's clear that they wanted to stir up the hornet's nest. Though, it's not so clear what their agenda is. There are many assumptions and theories, but none have any good substance yet.

This is going to be an interesting year, that much is certain.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Jakes51
Yes, I have to agree with you, the US bested the Vietnamese in battlefield engagements much of the time during the conflict. However, still the Vietnamese were a worthy foe. They just outlasted the resolve of the US government. It was the politics that defeated the US, and not the performance of the soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors. In all reality they met their objectives as assigned, but only amounting to mere points on a map.

If total war had been declared on the North with the massive bombings followed by a large ground invasion, perhaps the outcome would have been different. However, the reluctance of political leaders to leave no option off the table to break the backs of the North Vietnamese, cost the victory for the US. I think they were weary of the Soviet response if a no-holds barred approach was used against North Vietnam.

Jake...

That's has to be one of the best level headed responses I've seen in a long time regarding the Vietnam war. The First here on ATS that's for damn sure.

Thanks for the kind words, Slayer! In a nutshell that is how I feel about the Vietnam War. The US military got the shaft by their civilian leadership. It is a wound that continues to fester, some 30 years after the conflict. Hopefully, that betrayal never happens again as long as I walk this earth, because it was an outrage of immense proportions for those that participated and died over there. As the Marine Corp press officer in "Full Metal Jacket," bluntly put, about the Vietnam War after "Tet," "It is a big s@@@ sandwich and we all have to take a bite."

[edit on 31-1-2010 by Jakes51]

Personally I don’t worry about China. China is firmly under the control of the Powers that Be. In fact it is their prototype New World Order State.

A totalitarian government mixed with capitalism and fascism that allows for personal productivity to be rewarded but only within the confines of certain freedoms under an autocratic rule.

The notion that we as citizens of some nation have to be worried about any other nation is a notion that is simply meant to frighten us and confuse us and manipulate us as individuals to support our governments and their policies to an end that our governments will never tell us.

The same Corporations that rule America, rule Europe and rule China and pretty much everywhere, we are simply taxed and extolled through instilled senses of collective pride to support the policies of war and destruction that keep inching us ever closer to a cataclysmic apocalyptic world war to redraw, reshape, and reform how the world is openly ruled and by whom.

The Bank of China, the Bank of England, and the Federal Reserve are all Rothschild/Rockefeller/Rome controlled central banks, that all use the same de facto instrument of debt fiat flat currency system attached to nothing of intrinsic value.

In fact debt, like national pride is simply one more way to enslave us to worry about and extol and support our governments in literally figuring out ways to manipulate us, enslave us and kill one another off for them so they can depopulate the world into an easier to control mass.

The United States, Brittan, France, Russia and China are all permanent members of the U.N. Security Council.

They also happen to be the world’s top five armaments dealers in that order.

China is simply convincing Taiwan to buy the weapons, and to buy more weapons, and convincing the U.S. Congress to authorize selling them the weapons and more weapons by its posturing.

They are in essence doing the U.S. Government a favor, and China is totally reliant upon us as an export market.

We stop shopping at Wal-Mart and Target and they have a huge problem on their hands, with unemployment and their own infrastructure.

People must understand that if you have matured and wizened to the point that you see our own left/right political paradigm as a dog and pony show that means nothing, then the international dog and pony show means even less just in a more self destructive way.

The minute Americans stop worrying about what Russia is doing, what China is doing, what Iran is doing, what Israel is afraid of, what Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are doing will be the moment we actually become Americans again and take back our country and put it back under our own control.

That will be the moment we begin back on the process to prosperity and self determination and full rights.

As long as you allow yourself to be manipulated by these intrigues that are in fact being manipulated by the international corporations, the international banks, and the international military industrial complex and energy consortiums they are going to work out in really increasingly awful ways.

We simply truly just need to retreat our military and our corporations and businesses back within our own borders, resume being self sufficient and wait for the day someone wants to come calling across thousands and thousands of open ocean and then worry about lighting them up like a Christmas tree at that point, which a strong, self sufficient America certainly would be able to. The truth is we have the energy resources and natural materials, manpower and labor, ideas and ingenuity to gainfully employ every last American and give them a quality of life.

All this nonsense is just distractions from that, and excuses not to do that. Our forefathers wisely did not want us taking sides in foreign conflicts or creating an empire. Why the heck we are is obviously a self defeating, bankrupting and dangerous road to be on.

Let the rest of the world worry about them selves and that includes Zionist Israel.

If Americans worried about their own country, instead of all these petty we are U.S.A. we are number 1 stories and nightmares we visit on everyone around the world and get caught up in the fiction, romance and intrigue of we wouldn’t be broke, with record unemployment and importing 90% of everything we consume and living on borrowed money and time.

Wake up people, you are giving me frigging ulcers already!


[edit on 31/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

One of America's problem with China is it's lack of transparency , it's inscrutable way of conducting it's affairs . If the US wants to attack Iran , it'd want a better estimation of China's likely reaction , it'll want to yank the chinese tail in a test run to have a more accurate picture of the Chinese response . If the Chinese let this Taiwan affair go with just some peeved disgruntled words of admonishment , then the US will take that as a sign of China's unwillingness to take real actions against threats to it's supply/security in it's near abroad. And an an attack on Iran will be taken in the light of a toothless Chinese reaction on Taiwan. So , the Chinese can't just let it go . Has nothing to do with them getting obstreperous and bolshy.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Great response. I agree, but probably on a different level.

It's real simple .. them against us. They rally up all these silly fear inciters to get us paranoid and then rejoice in our fear. That's when they have us right where they want us. Frightnend people are so damn easy to manipulte.

This entire 'show' is being carefully directed.

Nowadays I take it all a few steps further, we are living the final battle of dark against light. The dark can only get at you if you believe in it.

reply to post by blujay


So true blujay it is all about a battle between the light which is rapidly fading to darkness and the light.

Sadly while some of us will win that war, and evolve above and beyond far too many are going to loose and be lost.

It's a shame people can't open their eyes and their hearts and their minds and question and think more.

Great addition!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


U.S. Starts to Push Back Against China in Growing Rift

WASHINGTON — For the past year, China has adopted an increasingly muscular position toward the United States, berating American officials for the global economic crisis, stage-managing President Obama’s visit to China in November, refusing to back a tougher climate change agreement in Copenhagen and standing fast against American demands for tough new Security Council sanctions against Iran.

Now, the Obama administration has started to push back. In announcing an arms sales package to Taiwan worth $6 billion on Friday, the United States leveled a direct strike at the heart of the most sensitive diplomatic issue between the two countries since America affirmed the “one China” policy in 1972.

The arms package was doubly infuriating to Beijing coming so soon after the Bush administration announced a similar arms package for Taiwan in 2008, and right as tensions were easingsomewhat in Beijing and Taipei’s own relations.

China’s immediate, and outraged, reaction — cancellation of some military exchanges and announcement of punitive sanctions against American companies — demonstrates, China experts said, that Beijing is feeling a little burned, particularly because the Taiwan arms announcement came on the same day that Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton publicly berated China for not taking a stronger position on holding Iran accountable for its nuclear program.

reply to post by Jakes51


It seems while we've been distracted and spending billions over the last 9 years since 9/11 chasing phantoms down rabbit holes , that China has crept ahead by stealth.

With hindsight, it's beginning to look like 9/11 was done as the diversion to help China prosper unimpeded.

Wonder who would profit by selling us all down the river to China?

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
Plus the Chinese are our biggest trading partner and own our debt.

No Canada is our biggest trading partner.

Chinese trade is nearly a one way street.

Who cares if they own our debt they do this because we buy so much of their goods....its why one day you may not find a job here because all our mfg jobs will be in China one day.

Screw China, without us they fail.

Originally posted by blujay
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Nowadays I take it all a few steps further, we are living the final battle of dark against light. The dark can only get at you if you believe in it.

I am with you there. We are in a battle of dark against light, remember this though. You can light up the darkest room with one candle. All the darkness of the universe though cannot dim any light...it can only recede from the dimmest of light.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by blujay
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Nowadays I take it all a few steps further, we are living the final battle of dark against light. The dark can only get at you if you believe in it.

I am with you there. We are in a battle of dark against light, remember this though. You can light up the darkest room with one candle. All the darkness of the universe though cannot dim any light...it can only recede from the dimmest of light.

Well said though I think I burned out a couple of the brain cells I needed to figure out exactly what you said back in 1972!

You are right though the more we choose to individually shine and illuminate the further darnkess must recede from us.

The trick is to get people to stop thinking the way to shine brighter is to extinquish other lights so their own shines all the more brightly in that growing gloom.

We have to reject the dogmas. We have to stop allowing ourselves to be extolled to hate, and fear, and distrust to the point we want to extinquish the light in other people's the light that shines in them as it shines in us.

We have to stop letting our governments and medias and statesmen manipulate us with these petty intriques and by appealing to our fears and vanity.

If we each simply learned to only want to dominate and master the light with in ourselves, we would no longer be interested in trying to make our own all the brighter by extinquishing someone elses and making the world a darker place for that instead of a brighter and lighter place.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I agree, the fear element has been quite the political tool of choice these days, but it has always been a means to to spearhead political agendas, and in most cases, controversial ones at that. Now, some caution may be warranted, when dealing with certain affairs of the day on the international stage. However, I say fear nothing because all it does is cloud rational thought and problem solving abilities. Not to mention, disruption and confusion among the populace. It is a crime for undue fear to be marketed and sold by our media and governments, for political gain or an agenda.

Wars have often started with tacit of approval by the people as the climate of fear consumes their better judgment on such topics. However, if there is a legitimate threat to the well being of a people or nation, then war may be the only alternative, if dialogue and diplomacy fails. Now, China may be part of the whole hidden agenda for World Government, however, as it stands now; they may be an enemy on the horizon.

Could conflict with China or Russia be one of the crucial turning points for forming a New World Order? Who really knows, and is there a hidden agenda which remains in the shadows of the people? We may never know the answers to that, but in this world anything is possible. Interesting alternative view on the subject!



[edit on 1-2-2010 by Jakes51]

reply to post by Jakes51


Thanks Jakes51, and the truth is China can nuke us, but China does not have the deep water navy that it needs nor does any other nation to invade us.

Iran can't invade us. Vietnam could not invade us. Iraq could not invade us. Afghanistan could not invade us. Even at the height of it's Navy dominance and with the United States just in it's infancy the British could barely invade us and never for long without being repelled.

France wanted to invade us in the early 1800s to secure the Mississippi and everything west but even Napolean realized he couldn't invade us. He simply didn't have the ships.

Hitler wanted to invade England but couldn't he simply didn't have the ships. Let alone invade America a couple more thousand miles away.

Our oceans are our best defense.

With things like Star Wars and HARRPS potential its not even a given China could take us out with ICBM's.

TO what end, we are just going to fire back and even if we didn't the only thing they would have won is a radio active wasteland that couldn't be inhabited.

The fact of the matter is as the great man once said Jakes51, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself.



[edit on 31/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Ok, all of this interesting discussion about China being a world power. Who left Russia from the table? I don't know exact numbers, but isn't Russia still in the #2 position? The big three. All have different goals, problem is, 2 are going to have to ally when something big happens...

China's "attitude" is based in reality. I love the US but it has failed on so many levels in the past few decades and most seem to be in denial about the causes of the failures. So it's only going to get worse.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by Jacob08]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Screw China, without us they fail.

Most of their growth now comes from domestic consumption, the economy has been adapted during the "Great Recession." It is slowly drifting away from being dominated by American consumers.