Swiss voters favour minaret ban: exit polls

reply to post by shamhat


not likely, we had a thing in america here called slavery for awhile, when we abolished it and gave them a chance to go back to africa, thier homeland, and build a better world for themselves they refused. the exception being the country of liberia...

www.pohjolansanomat.fi...

good article here about how some cuktures refuse to assimliate making thier host countries "no longer feeling at home"

Originally posted by TheCoffinman
reply to post by shamhat

 

not likely, we had a thing in america here called slavery for awhile, when we abolished it and gave them a chance to go back to africa, thier homeland, and build a better world for themselves they refused. the exception being the country of liberia...

Uhhh...excuse me? By the time the US abolished slavery, many of those slaves were third, fourth and fifth generation US born. Most of them didn't even know from where in Africa their antecedents originated from. Of course they didn't want to 'go back' home, they already were home, and a damn fool proposal it was too.

Besides how is transatlantic slavery even remotely the same as refugees fleeing from war? Other than both are victims of profiteering and capitalism that is.

Yeah those Somalis from Michigan and Minnesota who are joining the battlefield in Pakistan remind me of the American African slaves. Oh wait, no they don't, they voluntarily returned to fight against non-muslims after living in a non-muslim country and taking advantage of all there is in non-muslim countries. hmmmm.

Back to the topic.
Yay for Switzerland. Democracy rocks.

The Christian half-hourly and hourly tolling of church bells in Switzerland
being forbidden between 22 and 6 o´clock, extended sometimes to 7 o´clock
because of citizens´ complaints and subsequent rulings, what use would there
be for minarets calling for prayer as early as 4 o´ clock ?

We have had highest court rulings in Europe to stop cocks from crowing too
early in the morning.

All this comes under environmental protection against noise.

I love my sleep.

Therefore, trying to build minarets is nothing more than a politico-religious
demonstration.

Originally posted by merkava
The muslims in kosovo never left even after facing the genocide.And now they have something called KOSOVA a muslim country of their own.

You and your Albanian gangster leadership, who run drug and prostitution rings all over Europe, and were engaged in terror against the Serbs, have annexed Kosovo due to my taxpayer dollars which that fool Clinton used to finance the murderous bombing campaign killing Serbs. I hope he burns in hell for that. You thugs prevailed this time, I give you that. There'll be another day.

You ethnically cleansed Serbs out of Kosovo and you are happy about it. Well, it's a slow start but finally people in the West start seeing you for what you are.
One minaret down, a few hundred more to go.

I won't question the vote , but there is something about this motif I find disturbing....

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[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9fc4a39b7a81.jpg[/atsimg]

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reply to post by TheCoffinman

western countries let muslims in because western people embrace western culture and democracy assuming they are moving to say switzerland, because they want to be swiss... they want to assimilate into the culture that already exists, not change it.

Hypothetically speaking, imagine a day possibly not be too far away when America's joblessness, crime and government corruption make it a hell-hole of a place in which to live. Perhaps you are almost there already. Given such a hypothetical situation, China, or even India might look like a better place to go for a job -- chances are their economies will be booming in the years to come.

How would you, as a proud American fare, hypothetically speaking, if forced with the decision to move to one of those countries? How quickly would you pick up Chinese, or Hindi? How quickly would you substitute your taste for steak with rice or curry? How quickly might you assimilate? Would you change your religion to fit in?

Putting the shoe on the other foot, which really isn't all that hypothetical, I am pretty sure your tune would change. You would most likely do everything you could to be as American as you could be; even tho you no longer lived in America.

Why should people from eslewhere be any different when they arrive in the west. For most its a gradual process, but at no time should they expect to just forget who they have been their entire lives up to that point. And contrary to your belief, they bring with them a lot that enriches the culture we have.

Originally posted by jam321

It's not what I want. The Swiss voted on this.

Unless I am missing something the vote had nothing to do with restricting religion. They are still able to continue to worship the way they please.

True, but it is a limitation on the way they worship. I was under the impression that "the West" was more tolerant than having to ban minarets. I get that they democratically voted on the ban, that's their choice.

We had a similar problem locally with the call to prayer being amplified from minarets. We managed to find a middle ground that accomadated everybodies wishes. You can have a distinct culture yet still assimilate with the rest of the country. Yeah....it takes a lot of work and understanding from both sides though.

Multiple religions can live side by side with eachother in relative harmony.

Not every Muslim is a Terrorist, not every Jew is a Banker, not every Christian is a maurauding Crusader. Most of us are just people.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by pavil]

[edit on 30-11-2009 by pavil]

reply to post by pavil

We had a similar problem locally with the call to prayer being amplified from minarets. We managed to find a middle ground that accomadated everybodies wishes. You can have a distinct culture yet still assimilate with the rest of the country. Yeah....it takes a lot of work and understanding from both sides though.

Multiple religions can live side by side with eachother in relative harmony.

I agree that there probably could have been a better way of handling the issue.

I also don't think this is the end of this issue. Not sure of Swiss law, but if their is a way to reverse this vote, I'm sure people will try.

reply to post by jam321


Yeah I always like it when politicans and judges try to change the will of the people who just voted for something. Like it or not, the vote of the people should be upheld. Only another vote by the people should change things.

reply to post by pavil

Like it or not, the vote of the people should be upheld. Only another vote by the people should change things.

That is the reason I support this decision. It was put to a vote. People from both sides had a chance to rally the people for their cause.

I do wonder what kind of threats Switzerland will receive for voting for such an issue.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Hooray for the SWISS for rejecting the trouble makers!.. ....

.....When did the saying

WHEN IN ROME DO AS THE ROMANS DO

fall out of favor....?!?!.....

And who were the PUKERS....who did that and are they still alive?

We all know what they would do to Christians who tried to preach in their homeland!

Pretty rude behavior if you ask me setting up a thing like that in a foreign land...and they're only looking for trouble, nothing else.

The world can thank the various 5th column leaders from all over for allowing this garbage to get out of hand, inducing bad behavior from homefront people so arrests can be made, [ maybe not here ] or court cases can make front page etc.
These people? are paper thin, I see right thru them, and they're gonna have a lot to answer for someday.

I don't think we have but a short cpl years before things get OTT scary

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by DataWraith

 

In Islam it is the law that worship takes place in a mosque. Not a choice. Do not confuse Western religious freedom for Islam which is government and 24/7 behavior.

See my point that you answered in your own reply

You are TOLD to worship .
You are NOT given the CHOICE where to worship.
You HAVE to GO to a specific place to show your faith.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by merkava
The muslims in kosovo never left even after facing the genocide.And now they have something called KOSOVA a muslim country of their own.

One minaret down, a few hundred more to go.

You see i am all up for right-wing parties too.If you want muslims to leave europe than muslims would expect the same from you right?

For Example The BNP party in UK has this foreign policy:

British foreign policy must be driven by one guiding principle alone – to serve British interests above all else. This iron principle will be strictly enforced by a British National Party government.

In reality, this means that Britain’s foreign relations should be determined by the protection of our own national interests – and not by our like or dislike of other nations’ internal politics.

Britain has no right to dictate the internal politics or social configuration of any other nation. We would also expect all other nations to grant this same right to Britain.

We would have no quarrel with any nation that does not threaten British interests. In this regard, a BNP government will:

- Reach an accord with the Muslim world whereby they will agree to take back their excess population which is currently colonising this country, in exchange for an ironclad guarantee that Britain will never again interfere in the political affairs of the Middle East or try to dictate to any Arab or Muslim country as to what their internal government form should be; and

BNP

That means Muslims countries can have:

-Withdrawal of all Western troops from all islamic nations.

-Withdrawal of all oil, security etc. contractors.

-An unlimited stockpile of nuclear weapons as long as they don't threat the West.

-An unlimited number of biological weapons.

-An unlimited number of militias without anyone dictating to them about their threats.

-No help for israel if the muslims decide to dogpile it or better move the jews back into europe.

-No mingling with internal affairs of any muslim country, islamic dictators can do what they want with their populus.

-No restrictions on arms and deadly weapons being traded.

-No restrictions on nuclear scientists trading and selling information and materials around the globe.

-No border controls or sanctions.

-No world policing.

What you reckon? Nice ehh??

Originally posted by wayno
Hypothetically speaking, imagine a day possibly not be too far away when America's joblessness, crime and government corruption make it a hell-hole of a place in which to live. Perhaps you are almost there already. Given such a hypothetical situation, China, or even India might look like a better place to go for a job -- chances are their economies will be booming in the years to come.

How would you, as a proud American fare, hypothetically speaking, if forced with the decision to move to one of those countries? How quickly would you pick up Chinese, or Hindi? How quickly would you substitute your taste for steak with rice or curry? How quickly might you assimilate? Would you change your religion to fit in?

Putting the shoe on the other foot, which really isn't all that hypothetical, I am pretty sure your tune would change. You would most likely do everything you could to be as American as you could be; even tho you no longer lived in America.

I beg to differ, and that's because I know firsthand. I am an immigrant in the US and have a large number of immigrant friends from all walks of life, coming from the former Soviet Union. Every single person picked up English in a remarkably short period of time, and many have acquired remarkable language skills. Most still like cuisine of their original country, but also have taste for steak and sushi. Some actually changed their religion and some didn't, but in the end of the day none of these people would propose erecting a highly intrusive structure (e.g. a minaret) in their neighborhood.

Face it: a minaret is a deeply foreign object to the majority of population. And that's that. I've met many muslims and they are a cool bunch, but that doesn't mean that the existing community must accept some exotic architecture in their backyard.

As much as I feel the people have made their voices heard when they voted, I am sure the EU will ensure another vote is carried out ASAP and the correct response given this time.

Edit to add:

Europe's top human rights watchdog said Monday that the ban could violate fundamental liberties, and questioned whether human rights ought to be subject to popular votes.

I'm guess that once this is declared a "human right" within Europe there won't be any need for future planning permission, as a "no" at any point in the planning process would in fact be in breach of their human rights...

[edit on 1/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
As much as I feel the people have made their voices heard when they voted, I am sure the EU will ensure another vote is carried out ASAP and the correct response given this time.

Do you realize that Switzerland is not a member of EU?

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
As much as I feel the people have made their voices heard when they voted, I am sure the EU will ensure another vote is carried out ASAP and the correct response given this time.

Do you realize that Switzerland is not a member of EU?

I am so silly, I implement EU directives in many member states and did not know this simple fact *slaps head repeatedly*

However since I did mention human rights, perhaps I might claify, the Swiss ratified the European Convention of Human Rights in 1974 and Giorgio Malinverni has been officiating as the Swiss judge at the European Court of Human Rights since 19 January 2007.

reply to post by OBE1


OBE1 -you could also say the attitudes and actions of the Saudi islamic religious police are similar to that of the Gestapo - it works both ways.