Children given fake memories easily...

www.nrc.nl...

UFO's remembered but never there.

Children given fake memories easily...

It's believable. I've heard of many, many cases of false memories in children concerning abuse. The FBI investigated so many alleged incidences of "ritual abuse" that they did a study on the phenomenon and determined that most cases were in fact based in possible false memories:

Many "victims" may develop pseudomemories of their victimization and eventually come to believe the events actually occurred. Noted forensic psychiatrist Park E. Dietz (personal communication, Nov. 1991) states:

"Pseudomemories have been acquired through dreams (particularly if one is encouraged to keep a journal or dream diary and to regard dream content as 'clues' about the past or as snippets of history), substance-induced altered states of consciousness (alcohol or other drugs), group influence (particularly hearing vivid accounts of events occurring to others with whom one identifies emotionally such as occurs in incest survivor groups), reading vivid accounts of events occurring to others with whom one identifies emotionally, watching such accounts in films or on television, and hypnosis. The most efficient means of inducing pseudomemories is hypnosis."

"It is characteristic of pseudomemories that the recollections of complex events (as opposed to a simple unit of information, such as a tag number) are incomplete and without chronological sequence. Often the person reports some uncertainty because the pseudomemories are experienced in a manner they describe as 'hazy', 'fuzzy', or 'vague'. They are often perplexed that they recall some details vividly but others dimly."

"Pseudomemories are not delusions. When first telling others of pseudomemories, these individuals do not have the unshakable but irrational conviction that deluded subjects have, but with social support they often come to defend vigorously the truthfulness of the pseudomemories."

"Pseudomemories are not fantasies, but may incorporate elements from fantasies experienced in the past. Even where the events described are implausible, listeners may believe them because they are reported with such intense affect (i.e. with so much emotion attached to the story) that the listener concludes that the events must have happened because no one could 'fake' the emotional aspects of the retelling. It also occurs, however, that persons report pseudomemories in such a matter-of-fact and emotionless manner that mental health professionals conclude that the person has 'dissociated' intellectual knowledge of the events from emotional appreciation of their impact."
source

S&F


TA

not all who see UFOs are children....there are thousands of people who see UFOs..men, women, children, doctors, pilots, mcdonald's workers..etc etc..so I don't get the point of this thread

Originally posted by primetime2123
not all who see UFOs are children....there are thousands of people who see UFOs..men, women, children, doctors, pilots, mcdonald's workers..etc etc..so I don't get the point of this thread

I am the type of person who would come in here and throw down a quick jab, poking fun....but I've seen one too. Just check my history of posts...(almost) never post in UFO threads...despite the fact that I've seen w/my own eyes. So, YES, not all sightings are by children...matter of fact...few are seen solely by children...if they are, they are not reported.

Originally posted by bloodline
www.nrc.nl...

UFO's remembered but never there.

LOL Hang on. Just because it can be demonstrated that fake memories can be created in children, that doesn't in any way prove that every memory of seeing a UFO, even in children, is therefore a false memory. What a huge unwarranted leap to make.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by primetime2123

reply to post by Malcram


I don't think the point of the thread is to imply that only children see UFO's. I'm a firm believer in extraterrestrial life and the possibility that we have been visited, but I also believe that confabulation, false memories, and outright hoaxes only serve to hinder the investigative process.

What the OP is pointing out, is an important thing to bear in mind when looking into the subject from an objective perspective, not a cheap shot at believers. Or, even if it is an attempt to discredit UFO sightings, the fact remains that things like false memories must be ruled out lest the field of Ufology be labeled unscientific.


TA

Originally posted by TheAssociate
I don't think the point of the thread is to imply that only children see UFO's. I'm a firm believer in extraterrestrial life and the possibility that we have been visited, but I also believe that confabulation, false memories, and outright hoaxes only serve to hinder the investigative process.

What the OP is pointing out, is an important thing to bear in mind when looking into the subject from an objective perspective, not a cheap shot at believers. Or, even if it is an attempt to discredit UFO sightings, the fact remains that things like false memories must be ruled out lest the field of Ufology be labeled unscientific.


TA

No, I don't think the OP was suggesting that only children see UFOs. I think they were pointing to a phenomena that it has been demonstrated can happen in children and attempting to generalize it as something that supposedly explains away UFO sightings. Their comment was:

"UFO's remembered but never there."

That is a generalization and an assumption. It is a generalization because the statement is not limited even to children, and it is an assumption, as, just because it can be demonstrated that something can happen in no way proves that it has happened in any particular case, nevermind in many, most or all cases.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by Malcram

just because it can be demonstrated that something can happen in no way proves that it has happened in a particular case

Agreed, but it is still important to acknowledge that things like the false memory phenomenon occur, and to rule them out as a possible explanation.

Fact of the matter is, Ufology is considered a joke by a lot of people, and they will use any available argument to discredit any attempt at a serious investigation. Therefore, all possible explanations must be considered and scientifically ruled out, because to fail to do so is to give ammunition to those who seek to keep the notion of aliens and UFO's a joke among the general population.


TA

Originally posted by TheAssociate
Agreed, but it is still important to acknowledge that things like the false memory phenomenon occur, and to rule them out as a possible explanation.

However, for some it's not important to investigate whether or not a particular sighting may be explained by 'false memory' but simply to raise it as a general objection and by doing so hope to cast doubt on the entire subject.

Fact of the matter is, Ufology is considered a joke by a lot of people, and they will use any available argument to discredit any attempt at a serious investigation.

Ah, I agree, and TBH I think that is one possible interpretation of the intent of the 'throw-away' generalization in the OP.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by TheAssociate
I don't think the point of the thread is to imply that only children see UFO's. I'm a firm believer in extraterrestrial life and the possibility that we have been visited, but I also believe that confabulation, false memories, and outright hoaxes only serve to hinder the investigative process.

What the OP is pointing out, is an important thing to bear in mind when looking into the subject from an objective perspective, not a cheap shot at believers. Or, even if it is an attempt to discredit UFO sightings, the fact remains that things like false memories must be ruled out lest the field of Ufology be labeled unscientific.


TA

No, I don't think the OP was suggesting that only children see UFOs. I think they were pointing to a phenomena that it has been demonstrated can happen in children and attempting to generalize it as something that supposedly explains away UFO sightings. Their comment was:

"UFO's remembered but never there."

That is a generalization and an assumption. It is a generalization because the statement is not limited even to children, and it is an assumption, as, just because it can be demonstrated that something can happen in no way proves that it has happened in any particular case, nevermind in many, most or all cases.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

I'm not sure how to respond other than 'what are you talking about'? The article is specific. The comment is that UFO's in this case were remembered but wasn't there. This is a fact. Children remembered abductions and UFO's but never had abductions or UFO's.

I'm sorry you don't like the facts of this article.

This has nothing to do with you making the assumption that this article is in any way related to whether or not it has happened before.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by bloodline]

Originally posted by bloodline
I'm not sure how to respond other than 'what are you talking about'? The article is specific. The comment is that UFO's in this case were remembered but wasn't there. This is a fact. Children remembered abductions and UFO's but never had abductions or UFO's.

I'm sorry you don't like the facts of this article.

This has nothing to do with you making the assumption that this article is in any way related to whether or not it has happened before.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by bloodline]

Are you noticing a common theme here? Your OP's are one liners and definitely imply a position that you later deny holding. If you don't hold the positions that your one liners suggest then maybe it would be better to flesh out your OPs more, so that we know exactly what you are suggesting (if not what they seem to imply)

In short, your OPs seem like brief generalized comments designed to dismiss the reported UFO phenomenon by implying it's entirely composed of false memories and hallucinations brought on my watching ET movies, etc.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by bloodline


Children given fake memories easily...

Impossible. I distinctly remember livning in a little house on the prairie with my two sisters having a loving childhood. Then when a little older I and Ralph mouth and Potsie would hang out at Arnolds when I was in High-school.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by bloodline

 

Children given fake memories easily...

Impossible. I distinctly remember livning in a little house on the prairie with my two sisters having a loving childhood. Then when a little older I and Ralph mouth and Potsie would hang out at Arnolds when I was in High-school.

LOL.

Actually, what you say raises an interesting point about how likely 'false memory' is as an explanation of some UFO sightings.

Small children watch TV all the time and by the time they learn to talk, they tend to obsessively talk about TV with their parents and friends. This is surely one of the best ways to "program" children (and adults for that matter). But how often do children falsely "remember" being TV characters or having experiences they saw on TV that they were repeatedly exposed to and absorbed while in a TV 'trance'? It's not something you hear of, is it?

I tend to feel that while it may be possible to implant false memories in some children intentionally, that it is extremely unlikely to occur in relation to UFO sightings. It would be a very rare occurrence, at best, and hence, hardly worth considering in relation to the UFO phenomena in general, I would think.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by bloodline

 

Children given fake memories easily...

Impossible. I distinctly remember livning in a little house on the prairie with my two sisters having a loving childhood. Then when a little older I and Ralph mouth and Potsie would hang out at Arnolds when I was in High-school.

LOL.

Actually, what you say raises an interesting point about how likely 'false memory' is as an explanation of some UFO sightings.

Small children watch TV all the time and by the time they learn to talk, they tend to obsessively talk about TV with their parents and friends. This is surely one of the best ways to "program" children (and adults for that matter). But how often do children falsely "remember" being TV characters or having experiences they saw on TV that they were repeatedly exposed to and absorbed while in a TV 'trance'? It's not something you hear of, is it?

I tend to feel that while it may be possible to implant false memories in some children intentionally, that it is extremely unlikely to occur in relation to UFO sightings. It would be a very rare occurrence, at best, and hence, hardly worth considering in relation to the UFO phenomena in general, I would think.


[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

Now you are on the point that the thread was originally created for.

I mean this little girl says "we blowed it up together" and she's meaning the death star with luke, solo, leia and chewy.

Originally posted by bloodline
www.nrc.nl...

UFO's remembered but never there.

Good for you.
Now, can you move along?

Originally posted by bloodline
Now you are on the point that the thread was originally created for.

Cool! But maybe I might have done so earlier if you had actually made it clear what it was created for, rather than leaving it as a total guessing game with only a provocative one liner for an OP. But, moving on....

I mean this little girl says "we blowed it up together" and she's meaning the death star with luke, solo, leia and chewy.

Yes, in a monologue of thousands of words in which she consistently refers to "they" and demonstrates a perspective in which she is not involved, she once says "we". What does that prove exactly? And what - explicitly - are you suggesting this indicates with regard to UFO sightings?

Do you believe this girl, if seriously questioned further about her part in blowing up the Death Star, would still repeatedly maintain that she was actually involved, and that she would have a persistent "false memory" of bringing down the Empire?

I just don't buy this theory as having an impact on the reported UFO phenomenon that would make it worthy of serious consideration.



[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by bloodline
Now you are on the point that the thread was originally created for.

Cool! But maybe I might have done so earlier if you had actually made it clear what it was created for, rather than leaving it as a total guessing game with only a provocative one liner for an OP. But, moving on....

I mean this little girl says "we blowed it up together" and she's meaning the death star with luke, solo, leia and chewy.

Yes, in a monologue of thousands of words in which she consistently refers to "they" and demonstrates a perspective in which she is not involved, she once says "we". What does that prove exactly? And what - explicitly - are you suggesting this indicates with regard to UFO sightings?

Do you believe this girl, if seriously questioned further about her part in blowing up the Death Star, would still repeatedly maintain that she was actually involved, and that she would have a persistent "false memory" of bringing down the Empire?

I just don't buy this theory as having an impact on the reported UFO phenomenon that would make it worthy of serious consideration.



[edit on 21-11-2009 by Malcram]

Why is it not worthy? These kids are saying they were abducted. They were not abducted. Certainly it could happen outside of this test right? I mean certainly someone could believe something happened and it in fact did not happen right?

So it deserves no serious consideration why exactly?

Oh wait. I don't really care because you've stated that your opinion is that you don't buy that this should have no impact on the UFO phenomenon already so. Case closed in your book.

Originally posted by bloodline

Why is it not worthy? These kids are saying they were abducted. They were not abducted. Certainly it could happen outside of this test right? I mean certainly someone could believe something happened and it in fact did not happen right?

So it deserves no serious consideration why exactly?

The reason why I don't think it will be statistically relevant to the issue of UFO reports are as follows.

1) This experiment was only regarding children.

2) Further, it was only regarding 7 - 12 year olds. Less than 45% of the 7 and 8 year olds could be implanted with false memories, while less than 30% of the 11 and 12 year olds could. So there was clearly a large failure rate.

3) Adults in a controlled setting had to purposefully and repeatedly lie to the children in order to accomplish these percentages.

4) When told that it was a lie, many children said "yes, I thought it was weird." - they we're not completely convinced, despite purposeful efforts by adults.

5) There is no clear evidence that the children who said they believed the lies, actually believed (4 would suggest not), and the researchers concluded: "We will further investigate this soon, to find out once and for all." So they admit this is not proven.

6) THere was no evidence that the false memories persisted into later life accepted as real events.

So, the amount of UFO reports that would fit the same or similar criteria as were demonstrated here would be miniscule (children, aged around 7 or 8, purposefully lied to by adults about seeing a UFO etc). I'm not even sure if there would be any. We would have to make some huge, unwarranted assumptions in order to consider what this experiment reveals to be relevant to the UFO issue in general. Consequently it becomes virtually worthless to consider "false memory" as a viable explanation for UFO sightings on this basis.


[edit on 22-11-2009 by Malcram]

I'm sorry, but that article is an amateurish attempt at dealing with the abduction phenomenon,

"Kids can make things up unknowingly",

It's almost as naive as "Kids see things on TV"

As said already, the abduction phenomenon is not isolated to children, but all ages, all cultures around the world, and all social classes. So they only scratched the surface of the phenomenon with this one.

Kids do have a lively imagination yes, so do adults. Which is why countless abduction testimonies should have quite a bit of variety and creative imagination to them, spiced up by the pop culture media, TV, video games, etc.

Instead, the abduction phenomenon shows consistency, a repeated modus operandi with common denominators.

Abductee victims do not 'borrow' their experiences from pop culture, pop culture borrow from the abductees.

It would be so much more rewarding - for the sake of the debate - if debunkers actually studied the phenomenon and the research made on it, as for instance the late John Mack's work.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by Heliocentric]