Twenty-Five Reasons to Doubt

This is not meant to create doubt about your faith in a Creator, merely in the flawed human perception of God put forth by Christianity and the Bible. This thread is directed at those who take the Bible literally or believe it is the Word of God but all input is welcome.

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people.

Flaw 2: All Loving merciful God sees fit to damn people to an ETERNAL pit of fiery torment. God offers absurd choice “Either serve me or burn forever” and then remains utterly silent and says nothing causing men and women to end up serving a morally bankrupt Church Doctrine.

Flaw 3: God commands the Hebrews to slaughter every living thing in Jericho, I assume there were children living there also.

Flaw 4: Slaves are taken in several cities as the Israelites make their way to the "promised land". We are to believe God condones slavery?

Flaw 4.1: Numbers 31: 17-18 'Virgin' Slaves taken by supposed "Chosen" Israelites, supposedly people of God. They get away with it and God doesn't is never shown to step in and punish them for this sickening deviant behavior. Directly before this Verse, in the Chapter, the Israelites also have children as slaves along with the women so child slavery is condoned (and we can only imagine the horrors the virgin girls will face).

Flaw 5: God let's Satan test job by killing Job's children and robbing Job of everything he owns (again God is standing back and allowing the deaths of children for no reason.) Job 42:11 Says God brought the calamity upon Job.

Flaw 6: The Bible robs an older flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh, in the story the All Mighty God, who IS LOVE, decides to drown every living thing including thousands of innocent children. He rescues Noah, supposedly righteous, who later gets drunk and lays around naked (and yet in Genesis 6:9 it claims Noah was perfect).

Flaw 7: Ages of people before flood are either exaggerated or mistranslated. In fact historical evidence shows early man, due to poor nutrition and lack of medicine died much earlier than we do today and had stunted growth.

Flaw 8: Tower of Babel, we are led to believe that an ancient people thought they could build a tower into Heaven (remember Heaven here means sky, so apparently this is before God relocated out into Space and was just in the upper atmosphere). God becomes worried they will break through the clouds and so sends them into terrible chaos (some loving being, rather than move Heaven to another location he decides to screw with our brains).

Flaw 9: Numerous books thrown out of and added into the Bible. A Fragment of the Book of Enoch remains in Genesis but the book as a whole was thrown out. Many Gospels were tossed out.

Flaw 10: God sets up 10 Commandments and can't seem to follow some of his own rules.

Flaw 11: God smites Sodom and Gomorrah supposedly filled with evil people but I'm guessing at least a few of those people had KIDS, we can only assume those children were killed or turned to salt like Lot's wife. So apparently we see a trend of God enjoying the slaughter of children.

Flaw 12: God has Abraham nearly kill his son Isaac. More bizarre pagan blood sacrifice stuff.

Flaw 13: The Bible and Christians claim fornication is a sin and that God intends marriage before sex and yet our biology allows us to have sex prior to marriage and no such prerogative for marriage exists in our biology/instinct. The Bible further practices double standards by allowing many people in its pages to have more than one spouse.

Flaw 14: A PERFECT being creates imperfect ones and then blames the imperfect beings when they turn out to be more mistake-prone then he anticipated.

Flaw 15: Dinosaurs, where are they mentioned in the Bible? (and don't give me that Behemoth or Leviathan routine, I've read it all before).

Flaw 16: God, a supposedly perfect being, decides to plant a fruit bearing tree in the middle of the new Garden he made for Adam and Eve and yet he doesn't want them to eat from the tree. Seems an awful MISTAKE to make considering what happens down the line.

Flaw 17: God apparently forgets to put security guards up and a talking snake gets into the Garden. Seems another bad decision by God.

Flaw 18: Forgets to give Adam and Eve knowledge of right and wrong and so they were ignorant when they sinned and ate the fruit, shouldn't that absolve them from the sin (how can someone sin if they do not know right-from-wrong)? God doesn't think so in fact he's so mad he's going to curse EVERYONE who is human and a great deal of the rest of his creation gets cursed too, for eating from a tree HE planted there in the first place.

Flaw 19: One verse tells Slaves to obey their masters. Another says wives ought to be subservient to their husbands.

Flaw 20: Romans write the verse "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" in order to downplay Jesus' anti-religion anti-establishment teachings.

Flaw 21: Deuteronomy 22: 23-30 Deals with rape, apparently a woman raped is to be FORCED into marrying her rapist in certain cases and in other cases is to be STONED TO DEATH. Again these are God's "chosen" doing this and God seems to either condone or at the least shrug it off as no big deal.

Flaw 22: Contrary to Jesus’ teachings of being responsible for your own soul, salvation and sin, his followers buy into some weird human-sacrifice based system where they have to bathe in BLOOD of their innocent suffering Savior (and drink the blood during Communion). If this idea is some weird CULT idea I don't know what is.

Self-Responsibility:

Log in your own Eye
Golden Rule
Judge Not let you be Judged

Flaw 23: Numbers 25: 4 God (remember he is supposed to be a loving God) commands Moses to put the decapitated heads of their enemies before him so he can enjoy them. This is grotesque and absurd. Jeremiah 13:14 shows God becoming a merciless destructive being (a complete role reversal from how he is depicted in modern doctrine)

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

Flaw 24: Genesis 17 and 1st Chronicles 16:15 claims God's Covenant with Abraham will be everlasting and yet a few thousand years later he sends Jesus, so why did he claim it was everlasting if Jesus was right there (as part of him) and knew what would happen in the future? The New Testament claims Christians are no longer under the old law/covenant.

Flaw 25: The God who will "never leave you or forsake you" and who is "not willing that any shall perish but that all shall come to salvation" decides to kill most people on the Earth in the book of Revelation. Famine, war, death, stars falling, plagues, horrors BEYOND IMAGINING all PERPETRATED by a LOVING GOD. If this isn't a glaring enough contradiction to make question the validity of the Bible then you should check yourself into a mental hospital. To make matters worse after killing so many most of them will be melting in the Lake of Fire for an ETERNITY of HORRIFIC death and agony.

This should make you realize the conspiracy, minds working together to form a religious control grid that dictates how you think and behave using guilt, superstition, group psychology and fear. THERE’S A REASON THE BIBLE WANTS YOU TO BE A SHEEP IN A FLOCK! Organized Religion wants you to use a Middle-Man, wants you to believe the flawed writers of the Bible and obey the word of Pastors, Priests and Popes searching for God or truth you are taught that to question what you are told will ultimately damn you forever.

I beleive in a creator just not the one portrayed in the bible, god didnt write the bible, man did. The books where changed to justlfy actions or villanise some and build up others. I cannot argue with the points you made as the bible is a flawed book.
I belive that there is life after death and we are part of something much larger than we can comprehend however religion as a whole disgusts me, it is the route cause of all evil and wars.

The God of the Old Testament is not the God Jesus is referring to in the New Testament. The Old Testament God is an Extraterrestrial who is posing as God. The God Jesus refers to is the Supreme Source.

Because of this you have Christianity bringing forth some of the best and some of the worst we`ve seen.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

Interesting, but you overlook some things. For example, where did all those Egyptian firstborns come from? Who gave them their lives in the first place? If you believe the Bible, God gave them life. Since everyone dies, then God kills everyone, doesn't He? No matter how pure and innocent anyone is, they always wind up dying anyway. I'd say that God is the *only* one who should have the right to kill a person, since He's the one who gave them their lives.

You have to consider the Bible in its context. For its time, it was a very advanced and human book, something unheard of until then. Compared to what we know now, it is horrifying, but in its time it was radical. It put *limits* on the barbarity that was allowed. For example, there is a prohibition against eating the flesh of a living animal. Why is that? Because in those days, there was no refrigeration. One horrifying practice was to take a limb off a living animal, leaving the poor thing alive and suffering so that the rest of it didn't spoil until they came to get another limb. By forbidding this, and by commanding that any food animal be killed humanely and as quickly as possible, this was a step upward.

Slavery is horrible, of course. However, back then slaves were often treated worse than animals. Owners could kill them, mutilate them, torture them for no reason. The Bible placed strict limits on what you could do with your slave. Among other things, you had to provide them with food, clothing, and a place to sleep. If you only had enough food for one person, then the slave was to be fed. If you killed your slave, you could be executed for it. This was unheard of until then.

If you were to check the various rules in the Bible concerning slaves, you'll find that female slaves were protected from abuse. If a man had sex with a female slave, he couldn't then sell her. He had to keep her, or set her free if he no longer wanted to keep her. And, no matter what, there was a "jubilee" every 50th year, when all slaves were freed and all debts forgiven.

And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout [all] the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. (Leviticus 25:10)

The Bible doesn't claim that Noah was really "perfect". He was only "perfect" compared to the rest of the world, which was seriously warped at the time (at least, that's what the Bible says).

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)

Obviously Noah wasn't perfect, because after the flood, first thing he does is pant *vineyards*, and you do that because you want to drink wine. He does, lays around naked, and causes all sorts of trouble. He was far from perfect. He was just the best those generations had.

The Bible doesn't really have a double standard about marriage and sex. After all, Adam and Eve weren't married, right? Various activities were OK at different times, because God hadn't yet given humanity the Law. So some of the earlier guys married women who were sisters, but this becomes forbidden after God hands down the Ten Commandments. Before that, it wasn't illegal.

Also, the Bible doesn't forbid men to have more than one wife. In the times of tribes that were constantly warring amongst one another, there would be a shortage of men because they'd be killed in battle. It was merciful for a man to take on more than one woman as his wife, since otherwise she'd be unprotected and have no one to support her.

You also need to consider that the Bible is composed of may "morality tales", stories that are probably completely fiction, and intended only to teach some lesson or another. The story off Job is one example. Did God really make a bet with Satan (who, at this point at least, was an *obedient* son of God)? I doubt it. The story of Babel was probably a stab at explaining why there were so many different languages in the world. Same with Noah's Ark - the world is evil and gets destroyed, but one guy is worth saving, yadda-yadda. So behave yourself, kids. There must have been some legend about a flood in the past, because that's a very common story for that whole region (and even in India).

And so it goes. The Bible was a remarkable book for its time, changing the way people treated each other and their animals. "Eye for an eye" was the *limit* you ccould go. If someone hurt you, the most you could do back to them was the same hurt, nothing more. It didn't mean you had to do that; it only meant you couldn't do worse to a person. Also, it usually meant that you had to give the person *money* if you injured them, not that you'd have to be injured in return (since that doesn't do the victim any good).

You can always cherry pick through the Bible and find apparently ridiculous or horrifying verses. But almost all of them make sense, when taken in context. Keep in mind who the Bible wa written for (especially the Old Testament). A bunch of former slaves who had to be *told* not to have sex with their camels. They had to be told to bathe at least once a week, whether they needed it or not. These were not fine, upstanding citizens. They were the lowest of the low, a debased tribe that had lived in servitude for 230 years. You couldn't really teach them the subtleties of Christian apologetics or esoteric philosophy. About all they could understand is, "Why do we have to do this?" "Because God will turn you into blood if you don't".

The Bible is an advanced book for its time, as I said. It looks mighty bad now, but we've got the benefit of around 6000 years to get our act together (at least a little bit). We're not going after the camels so much, most of us wash more than once a week, and so on. So yeah, the Bible isn't really a good book to follow in our times, but even now it still has its place. We still haven't learned to follow some of the Bible's principles, such as forgiveness of debt, not taking usury, that sort of thing. That's what contributes to our economic crises. But I'll save that for another day...

strange that the Biblical tribal God had behaviors that were aligned with the neolithic, copper & bronze ages of men


strange that the old testament monotheistic God also fit well with the iron age thought...
and now, even the 2000 year old 'New Testament' God is trapped in the old roman/iron age paradigms, as his return will differ from his last mission on Earth,
to wit: the seals, thunders, bowls, vials, trumpet judgements to beset humanity & the natural world & biosphere\


see youse later,

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Titen-Sxull,

Thank you for posting this.

I was 'tapped on the shoulder' to organize a 'new' religion a few years ago. I had started, but put it aside until recently. I am now back to writing the by-laws of this 'new' religion that is intended to bring it back to the truth of what God intended for us all and dispell some of the myths created by wealthy man (like hell and demons, for example) to control the poor man through lies and fear.

The reason for this 'new' religion? In the current world we live (particularly the USA), people's religious rights (and rites) are protected by law. Unfortunately, if you are spiritual but not a part of any particular religion, your rights (& rites) are not protected in all states. This congregation is intended to serve and protect those rights/rites.

If God created everything and God is a perfect and loving Being, then how could this same Being create anything that is not of those same qualities?

reply to post by chiron613


Well, if you truly look at it God did not create the Egyptian children, their parents did. God creates the ability to procreate, so by extension it could be claimed we are all created by him but its really not a direct process. We weren't called into existence and suddenly teleported into the womb. Besides it was God's commandment that "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (yes I know it technically wasn't given to Moses until a little later in the story) I figure if God expects flawed humans to follow that sort of thing that He himself should obey his own commandments as well.

I agree with what you are saying though, it was an advanced document for its time and likely did at least some good at first. And it does look bad today which is why I wrote this thread, to point out to those who still cling to it as truth that it is anything but and that the time has come to give up the whole "this is the perfect word of God" that some Christians still believe. Its time to evolve ideas, I think we should take the few parts of the Bible that are still relevant in today's world and compile them into an Abridged Bible of some sort (its probably already been done by someone out there)...

Anyway, thanks for contributing

Originally posted by Skyfloating
... The Old Testament God is an Extraterrestrial who is posing as God. The God Jesus refers to is the Supreme Source.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

How did you come to that conclusion? I'm really curious.

Originally posted by Nichiren
How did you come to that conclusion? I'm really curious.

Look at the various teachings unbiased, without filters and look at their fruits and it will be obvious. The Old Testament God displays rage and bloody slaughter whereas Jesus displays Love, Kindness and Truth.

Its so in-your-face obvious that one wonders why the endless debate?

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hi Titen,

S & F to you for a brilliant post.

I have always been concerned about God - but I believe In Jesus absolutely.

God seems to be misrepresented by everyone.

reply to post by Skyfloating

The God of the Old Testament is not the God Jesus is referring to in the New Testament. The Old Testament God is an Extraterrestrial who is posing as God. The God Jesus refers to is the Supreme Source.

It's very seldom I see someone say something so stupid and so wrong, someone who clearly beyond a shadow of doubt has no understanding whats so ever of what they are talking about.

Jeff Foxworthy would say "heres your sign."

I long ago stoped caring about what people posted here, but I just had to respond to that cracked out post.

reply to post by dthwraith


Not to be off topic in my own thread but its Engvall who does the "Here is your sign" bit not Foxworthy. So insulting Skyfloating by saying something incorrect might not be the right approach.

There are a lot of people who believe aliens influenced early man and who believe the Bible supports that idea, how is that belief any more or less valid then believing in the God of the Bible as an actual deity?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people

I really don't understand how you could get this wrong, right off the bat No.1
Moses told Pharouh if one more curse comes on the land it will be by
his word not Gods. It just dosn't get more plain than that.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


TY for the correction, I no longer talk about the bible on ATS. I stoped caring and trying to correct moronic posts. The fake Christians that post here make me want to vomit. Every time a Christian posts something when they clearly don't have a understanding of it makes every other Christian look stupid. Cause very few people here catch the mistakes, they even encourage them. Sorry to hijack your thread, I couldn't stop myself from responding to that post.

reply to post by dthwraith

It's very seldom I see someone say something so stupid and so wrong, someone who clearly beyond a shadow of doubt has no understanding whats so ever of what they are talking about

Man brother why so harsh and condecending. That's not even called for at all.

TY for the correction, I no longer talk about the bible on ATS. I stoped caring and trying to correct moronic posts. The fake Christians that post here make me want to vomit. Every time a Christian posts something when they clearly don't have a understanding of it makes every other Christian look stupid. Cause very few people here catch the mistakes, they even encourage them. Sorry to hijack your thread, I couldn't stop myself from responding to that post.

I'm kind of worried how YOU are making Christians look right now.
This is no Christian attitude for sure and if you're a Christian you know that.

Anyways back on topic.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by dthwraith


But see that's the thing, why does it disgust you to see people believing differently? Its very easy to see why so many Christians are confused, just look at how many different denominations there are out there, doctrines and interpretations are vastly different. In fact even from priest to priest in one particular denomination will get you slightly different results. That's the whole point of my thread, to point out that organized religion just doesn't work and is there mainly to control and divide us and that in the end each and every person has their own set of personal beliefs and no two people are alike.

So why the belief that you are right while everyone else is wrong? What makes you different from all those others and what makes your beliefs more valid?

Originally posted by dthwraith
It's very seldom I see someone say something so stupid and so wrong, someone who clearly beyond a shadow of doubt has no understanding whats so ever of what they are talking about.

It is with great glee and satisfaction that I announce that I shall continue expressing viewpoints uncomfortable to the status quo.

______________________________________________________

I do believe in GOD btw...I just dont believe that the Old-Testament-Dude IS God.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

It is with great glee and satisfaction that I wish to announce that I shall continue expressing viewpoints uncomfortable to the status quo

I know that I am certainly expecting no less.
That is a popular belief nowdays but that attitude surely not.
What could have been the point of any of that.
Maybe he needs to go buy some chocolate.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


Yes Randy, Moses did warn Pharaoh a great number of times but does that suddenly justify a "Loving" forgiving and merciful deity to become a child murderer? I think not. Seems another instance of cognitive dissonance working itself out through justification. People don't want to come to the conclusion that the God being dealt with in the Old Testament is a mean angry wrathful child murdering psycho and so they go "Well the Pharaoh could have just stopped the whole thing, it was his fault."

Put yourself in the Pharaoh's shoes for a moment, we're dealing with the ancient world, slavery is common, its normal to get your labor that way and all of a sudden he's supposed to release his entire work force and believe its morally wrong to have slaves (at least to have Hebrew slaves)... Also the double standard, Pharaoh tried to have the Hebrew children killed, most people think this gives God permission to become a child murderer but it seems an awful lot like God's abusing his power with these 10 plagues and is a far cry from the Turn the other cheek philosophy later endorsed by the kinder more peaceful third of God's trifold persona.

Sorry Randy, it just doesn't make one bit of sense for a merciful God to kill kids no matter what the reason, even if he begged the Pharaoh really really nicely with sugar on top. Wouldn't it have been easier for an all powerful being to instantaneously teleport them out of Egypt, or was God's molecular transporter at the shop?