bipedal walking robot : help wanted

I have for the past 40 years design'd robots as a hobbie .

practicaly , I have never buildt anything .

I build test arms , build guidance systems on test beds , build parts , test assumptions , work out the details .

frankly speaking , I would love to build and sell the real thing .
but I have not the slightest intrest in starting a company , running the marketing , or being famious .

I am a very good machinist , pretty fair at board level design and electronic's ... and remarkably good at robot design .

honestly... my best success was walking for 15 minutes between ( motor cycle battery ) chargeing ... and was really only testing the walking cycle .

what I need is a air breathing hydrogen fuel cell in the 28vdc / 20 amp range that weighs no more than 12 pounds .

but I would settle for a company , corparation , or person who wants to sponcor a crazy old guy for room and board to build something like art .

I am a walking , talking , get it done , and get it right kinda hermit ....


what I am asking is... does any one reading this have a single idea , or thought on either : 1) bipedal walkers , 2) how to get the attention of some one who will sponcor me ( or you ) 3) questions on or answers to the engineering problems of bipedal walking robots .... 4) any comments or thoughts on robotics .

I should note , robot clubs seem a waste of time , because you spend all your time going over ground that you left 30 years ago .... robots are a thing you do... you don't talk about them.
robot clubs are nice , social , and intresting network things... but I want to just build sheet .

Thats a helluva hobby, maybe if you post some pics of your previous projects they'll lend you credibility. And maybe attract some more attention. Good luck.

reply to post by readerone


Great subject. I am sure you are well aware of the serious competition you have concerning this endeavor.

world.honda.com...

Asimo is the Bi-Pedal you must overtake. Granted, Honda has 100's of millions of dollars to work with. Perhaps contacting them may assist you further.

Becker

Here's a great section on the mechanics employed for "walking"

world.honda.com...

Hope this helps.

Becker

reply to post by red_leader


I don't have anything worth showing . most if it means something to me , but would just confuse people looking at it .

I have a graphic vidio but don't know how to load it to this format.

honestly , I build systems better that try to figure out this one .

thank you for commenting .
it is quite frustrating .... artists get billions of dollors a year to dance or play a cello .... I pay for the right to work on technology alone , that fills box's in my apartment , and will only be seen by accident who ask ... " you should do something with it. " ... or... oh yes , the japanese are doing that , ...or ... I saw that on t.v. ...

what is very frustrating ... is most of the time... what I have is 10 years old... and I see it as the new thing today .

Sadly I can't help you but your idea and thread is so refreshing that I'll just do what I can do - flag, star and bump it.

I wish you all the luck in this endeavour.

Cheers readerone.

reply to post by Becker44



yes I am quite aware of the honda , they use spring loading to over come some remarkable engineering problems .

I suspect their concept work is flaw'd , but their engineering is beautiful .

they use lithium ion batterys which have heat and explosive problems , and are expensive in the extreme .

if I had their snack food budget for their cleaning crew... I suspect I could do a wee bit better.... but frankly speaking... no one on earth could touch their engineering...

honda is doing art... not robotic's

reply to post by readerone


Masato Hirose is credited with the majority of Bi-Pedal robotic development. I'm sure he isn't hard to contact. I'd do the legwork for you but I have to be somewhere.

I'll check the thread on Sunday morning and see where you're at with this info.

Read this and don't give up!

techon.nikkeibp.co.jp...

Becker

[edit on 26-9-2009 by Becker44]

( post script )

I should say , concept work is done , when you have no money for engineering .

complxity is what makes their robot work , when weight is the problem , energy is the solution .

reply to post by Becker44


I am aware of Masato Hirose work.. they diffrence between his work and hat I do is that he is building humaniod devices .

I am working tword walking platforms which are light weight and hardy .

I suspect he would be unimpressed with anything I have done... we are heading in diffrent directions .

if I can ever figure out how to upload my vidio , I will show you the basic configuration I have in mind .

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences.

Explanation: S&F!

1stly I would focus on the skeletal form of the robot and match/mimic the bone and joint structure of humanoids and I would probably use a female skeleton for the wide hips structure to help provide stability! i.e wide and low centre of Gravity. getting the robot to squat slightly may help with balancing!

2ndly standing up from a prone or foetal position and maintaining balance is far more important to start with than walking 1st and this should be obivious for many reasons. i.e getting up after falling over.

3rdly maybe a shivering system could be employed to help maintain balance as a solid rigid robot only needs a bump to destabilize it where as a constantly shivering system might be able to compensate for this faster and smoother than other less dynamic systems.

4th. Ape and chimp style knuckle walking might be usefull to mimic but I agree that human upright walking is far more efficient. But baby steps 1st ok! Get the balancing act right from the get go and walking will become far easier.

5th it might be interesting to use real muscles from dead animals for a short period of time to replace the need for hydraulics and pistons etc as they can be simply electrical activated. might smell a bit and needs to be replaced often and regularly..but hey meat is far cheaper and comes it the perfect form! i.e muscles!

6th don't forget that arm swinging is very important to help maintain balance as well. Its not just the legs and hips! Maybe getting the robot to take a sprinters starting mark and set before actually walking or running may help the robot maintain balance whilst under forward momentum or whilst accelerating.

Finally slowing down and washing off speed i.e braking must also be considered and I would watch how the olympic sprinters do this for any insight on how this may be achieved.

Personal Disclosure: I recommend using compressed air to run your energy needs! Air is free and ubiquitous here on earth and can be compressed with relative ease and simple devices and once bottled the energy stored lasts far longer than any battery would.

Cut Asimo's torso and retain the legs then replace the torso with something simple like your platform. It'll look like a walking platform in no time.

If that's not enough then research the Japanese robots. They made a lot of various industrial types that will help you get great ideas.

Hi readerone. Sorry I don't have any helpful advice for you. I wish I did, but I just wanted to comment on how much I admire your tenacity and perseverence, even though frustrations arise at times, as with anything worth doing.

Just a thought: sometimes research grants are available for different endeavors..scientific/inventions.....have you ever considered applying for something of this nature?

I know it might sound like a pie in the sky, but stranger things have happened.

Good luck, and it is afterall, great to have something you can feel such passion towards.

Originally posted by readerone
I have for the past 40 years design'd robots as a hobbie .

practicaly , I have never buildt anything .

I build test arms , build guidance systems on test beds , build parts , test assumptions , work out the details .

You kind of lost me there, you never built anything but you built all that?

what I am asking is... does any one reading this have a single idea , or thought on either : 1) bipedal walkers , 2) how to get the attention of some one who will sponcor me ( or you ) 3) questions on or answers to the engineering problems of bipedal walking robots .... 4) any comments or thoughts on robotics .

Make a resume, make a cover letter. On the cover letter put everything you just wrote here(take out the hobbie part but leave the 40 years design experience) - make it neat though(may want to have it checked by a professional). Start emailing right away.

Now chances are, if anyone hires/sponsors you, you won't get to design the whole thing, but a small part of it, say an arm, or a foot, so don't get hopes too high on that.

Now there is one thing I really hope your not doing: When you said 'bipedal', are you limiting yourself to humanoid like? I'm saying this because there are other bipedal things out there that need improvement. Ever saw a roboraptor? That thing has got to have the worst lower extremity design ever! Maybe you could contact Mark Tilden and let him know you could improve it.




[edit on 27-9-2009 by daniel_g]

I hope your engineering skills are better than your spelling/grammar skills.

I'm not being rude, I'm telling you like it is. No one is ever going to take you seriously if that's the way you communicate in order to drum up work.

So if you are wondering why no one ever takes you seriously, now you know why.

That being said, if you don't want to improve your writing skills, then you better have some very impressive real world functioning machines that demonstrate your craft if you want anyone to notice you.

Good luck.

my programming , and graphic skills are limited ..
that said..
on youtube you can find the basic conceptual design

www.youtube.com...

if the link does not work I will try again

I just watched some videos of Robert Full's work dealing with locomotion. Basically mimicking nature's designs and improving them, very cool.

polypedal.berkeley.edu... is his site

reply to post by Pipebomb24875



practicaly speaking... he is more into the electronics... and guidance than I am .

functionaly , I just want my beast to get from one place to another ... I reduced my design to the simplest answers I could manage... tested it , and reduced it to what would work .

what fuller is doing is studing how biological systems do things and mimic'ing how it is done in nature...

my design has a diffrent skill set , therefore a diffrent set of answers

reply to post by OmegaLogos



1stly I would focus on the skeletal form of the robot and match/mimic the bone and joint structure of humanoids and I would probably use a female skeleton for the wide hips structure to help provide stability! i.e wide and low centre of Gravity. getting the robot to squat slightly may help with balancing!


1) I began with the human /skeletal substructure , but quickly discovered that form follows function , and the skeletal substructure is based on muscles... which I can't repeat... much less match in elegance of operation or preformance .

the design I have is therefore not remotely like any life form .


2ndly standing up from a prone or foetal position and maintaining balance is far more important to start with than walking 1st and this should be obivious for many reasons. i.e getting up after falling over.


2) what is not seen in the vidio is that the actual design uses tetrahedrons of a common size for both the feet and the fraim.
the feet are quite large infact , with long fingers , and spring loaded closed /powered open w/ 2 knuckels . this address's balance and standing , also it keeps the center of gravity over the foot print .
the fall down schedule of operations is to involved to discuse at lenght here .


3rdly maybe a shivering system could be employed to help maintain balance as a solid rigid robot only needs a bump to destabilize it where as a constantly shivering system might be able to compensate for this faster and smoother than other less dynamic systems.


3) what is not shown is that the connection between the arm and fraim are bipolarstepper motor driven worm/gears , with the worm stationary and the arm mounted to the driven gear .

this configuration allows the angle of the arms to adapt to accelaration , uneven surfaces and stair climbing .

the feet size requires adaptations not required by animals or people


4th. Ape and chimp style knuckle walking might be usefull to mimic but I agree that human upright walking is far more efficient. But baby steps 1st ok! Get the balancing act right from the get go and walking will become far easier.


4) I have to respectfuly disagree , a chichen walk , where the hand opens befor contact with the ground , and close as it leaves the ground will give a greater degree of flexiblity to balance and uneven surface confirmation , animals and humans have greater speed and flexiblity than a robot , which costs more energy which the robot does not have . what a robot does have is prescion and strenght ... frankly it may look like a chicken walk , but it will only look that way .... the physics and function are a good deal diffrent .


5th it might be interesting to use real muscles from dead animals for a short period of time to replace the need for hydraulics and pistons etc as they can be simply electrical activated. might smell a bit and needs to be replaced often and regularly..but hey meat is far cheaper and comes it the perfect form! i.e muscles!


5) hehehhehe... oh my word... PETA would just love that... please go right ahead and post it on a myspace account , or a youtube site...

you will be wareing a bullet proof vest for the rest of your short life ( befor your violent end ) .


6th don't forget that arm swinging is very important to help maintain balance as well. Its not just the legs and hips! Maybe getting the robot to take a sprinters starting mark and set before actually walking or running may help the robot maintain balance whilst under forward momentum or whilst accelerating.


6) in concept , there is little that is more fundimentaly important to a bipedal walker than the center of balance/ center of gravity , and matching side to side accelarations for a sine wave path of the center of gravity over the ground .


Finally slowing down and washing off speed i.e braking must also be considered and I would watch how the olympic sprinters do this for any insight on how this may be achieved.


7) after a great deal of failure... I put the arms on rotation to the fraim . slowing , speeding up and stair climbing is all a matter of 4 limit switches on two sensors ( 8 total ) and a very simple echo circuit that drives the sholders motors useing mechanical relays .
I do with hard ware what the rest of the world does unsuccessfuly with software and computer programs .


Personal Disclosure: I recommend using compressed air to run your energy needs! Air is free and ubiquitous here on earth and can be compressed with relative ease and simple devices and once bottled the energy stored lasts far longer than any battery would.

as for compressed air... only battery power weighs more , pressure regulation is a nightmare , and explosive problems will make it unmarketable .
I hate electrical , hydrolics is better , but still I need power

Good luck; you're gonna need it.

I am in a similar rut. I have some projects that are awesome. One has already passed a initial test with a first prototype, with flying colors. Another prototype (two actually) are being constructed right now. But there are problems.

I was driving a truck and making a pretty good living at it. I spent my nights in the sleeper with a pad and pen working out bugs in several designs. I had my computer to look up information I needed, since my library is here at home. But at some point I realized that I was going over the same ground again and again. The design phase was over; it was time to enter the prototyping phase.

I left, determined to build the things I had designed while I lived off a fairly substantial savings I had accumulated. I had already built a new shop and stocked it with tools and some materials. After a few months it became painfully obvious that I wasn't going to be able to live just off of savings long enough to complete the projects. So I went to find a local job, preferably part-time.

I drove a dump truck for a while. I would come home exhausted, and have to leave out the next morning. The pay was decent but the only time off was when it rained. Some of my work I have to do outside, so that sort of made working on the projects a no-go.

I did get a good job driving a semi on a dedicated route. It allowed me to rebuild a little on my savings, and gave me a little time to work on my stuff. But it was short-lived and the economy took that one away from me.

Now I work a grunt job, part-time, because there are no other jobs here. I make barely above minimum wage, and that only because I have the driving background to drive the company van. It is not enough money to make ends meet, and my savings are still slowly disappearing. I also have almost no time to work on my projects, except for a few lulls in the workload which last from 2-5 days. The first day or two is spent recovering where I was, since these lulls are so far apart.

I doubt anyone realizes the expense of building something new, unless they have already done it. Every piece has to be created. Every force has to be calculated. Every part must be sized. The shipping costs alone for a piece here, a piece or two there, some transistors from this place over here, a chip from that place over there, is outrageous. In electronics, there are 81 different standard resistor values in 5% tolerance values. A project may require 10 or more of any particular value (more in some logic circuits). That's 810 resistors one would have to keep in stock to truly be able to work unhindered by waiting on an order which cost $10 to ship $1 worth of items. There are also 3 different standard wattage ranges for each resistor. There are two major surface mount case sizes, if you are going to miniaturize your circuitry. And that's just for small resistors, not including power resistors, the various types of capacitors, integrated circuits, transistors (bipolar, and MOSFET, both having two different polarities each as well as an innumerable range of characteristics), inductors, transformers (many are over $20 each if you are talking about power projects), and all the miscellaneous parts.

The cost to have an electronics lab is astounding. Copper-clad boards are as high as $15 for a square foot, sometimes as low as $3 for something like an 8x10 if you can happen to find them surplus. Etchant? I just placed an order for 6 liters of etchant, at a cost of over $70. I had to get a laser printer for circuit board design, since I no longer can find the dry transfers I used to use. That was over $100. And we are still talking about circuit boards. The machine shop I own (Smithy Midas 1220) was over $4000! A single end mill for it is $20 if I'm lucky. That 4-jaw chuck I now need? Try another $300. Plastics? 4 square feet of 1/4" polycarbonate set me back $60. The last steel order I got in was over $100 and it took about 5 minutes to unload it all by hand. Nylon gears run anywhere from $3 to $30... nylon, low-power gears! A single steel worm gear set for one project is over $150!

Yeah, I feel for the OP, in ways I can't even express.

It has come down to this for me: I will finish the project I am on, at least this prototype/test unit. I swear to God above and on my own life, I will complete this one thing. I will apply for a patent on it once it is working. I will then make some attempt to create a media buzz about it. I will, should this not succeed in making me financially able to continue, finally return to truck driving and give up all hope of ever completing another project.

I have lost my savings, I have no operating vehicle (both pickups are down needing repairs) meaning I cannot hold another job now, I am losing my health due to the stress level I am under, and I seem to be coming close to losing the respect of my family. The cost is too high.

My area of work? ENERGY PRODUCTION.

So this thread is as good a place as any to inform someone, anyone, everyone, that all the economic woes that have been brought down upon the common people by the crashing economy, all the regulations that continually increase the cost I must pay to live, all the cigarette taxes and the income taxes and the high energy costs associated with the Global Warming hysteria... they worked. They did exactly what they were designed to do. They kept you in the dark and under the control of those in power. They destroyed me, so I could not create a better system.

How many more 'mes' are there? How many people are trying desperately to change the world, only to have theirs fall down around their ears? There is no funding... there is no help... there is no benefactor to assist those of us who are trying so hard... Honda? They have no interest in the small inventor. They have only an interest in their status quo. Those of us who have spent their lives in this stuff know this already. If they do offer to help, it will be for a pittance in order to get the rights to your latest idea. A lot of companies include in the employment contract a patent/copyright clause that gives your company rights to any patent or copyright you may get while under their employ.

Sorry if this post is a bit of a downer, but this needed to be said. To the OP, I wish you well, certainly much better than I have fared. I only wish I could help you.

reply to post by daniel_g

You kind of lost me there, you never built anything but you built all that?

I understand what he is saying. I have tons of old project test units that worked just fine, but the results are a bit intellectual as opposed to practical. The average person just looks at them working and shrugs their shoulders, as if to say, "OK, so what?"

All research is not amazing; most of it is not even obvious, save to the one doing the research.

TheRedneck