A Question For Christians Who Attend the Tea Parties

I just read the following thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It deals with the swine flu, ID bracelets with readable technology, and the laws regarding coerced, if not forced, vaccinations.

I need some answers.

There have been many posts regarding legislation this summer that allows States to do away with warrants in case of emergency, military troops to aid in vaccinations, forcible removal to health centers if you do not take the flu shot...all of these taken from the states, health departments, and military websites--this is no Alex Jones or Glen Beck stuff, but from their actual websites. Add this on top of the Patriot Act, that was rushed through Congress with lightning speed, stripping away our basic Constitutional protections...

More and more of our rights and freedoms taken away permanently and the only thing we can get off our arses for is taxation????

Years ago I stood up, wrote letters, stomped my feet over the Patriot Act and my fellow Christians (mostly conservatives) got angry with me and said I wanted the terrorists to win. It did not matter what I said, I was with the enemy.

Fast forward...to Fusion Centers collecting information on conservative Christians--oh, and don't blame Obama, he hadn't even come into office yet. Yes, conservative Christians who are card carrying members of the NRA are potential domestic terrorists. Fusion centers are taking your NRA and Liberty University bumperstickers as clues that you are a domestic terrorist. www.shortnews.com...

Now, who wants the terrorists to win?

You who supported the Patriot Act had better hope they let you win because you're now the target.

Do you not see where the slippery slope began? You, all of you who, ironically, supported Bush and Cheney to the bitter end because he claimed to know that Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior (Something the devil is supposed to know, too, btw) will be the first to be under suspicion.

Is the Tea Party's fiscal goals anywhere near as important an issue as the encroachment of your civil liberties, the removal of your right to choose what you put in your body?

Revelation 13:16-18
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a MARK in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the MARK, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev. 13:16-18

I am speaking to my fellow Christians, so atheists and agnostics please use some restraint. I already know that you think it's all BS and blah blah blah, consider it "heard" and "starred".

Do you all not see that this is the first step in the slippery slope to us being embedded with chips?

"Identity theft", the need for a strong global "currency", disease and bioterrorism...all of these fears can be used to slowly promote RFID technology. They won't chip you right away. They'll use the bracelets, but only for public health emergencies, but--Oh look! You can also hold financial records and this way people can't steal your information. Parents, think of all the child abductions. Your sweet little girl can be found so easily with the chip... What about grandma with Alzheimer's? You want to find poor wittle grammie if she wanders somewhere, don't you? You don't hate little kids and grandmothers, do you?

They will have you so convinced that they are doing this for your own good that you will give up the last bit of personal independence you own.

Am I crazy? Please, tell me if I am. Tell me this is not the first step to tyranny and make me believe it.

Why is money so important that you'll march in hundreds of thousands over it and not over your freedom?

I apologize for this unorganized, emotional ramble, but I am very sad now. Very sad.

Can you tell me what sections in the PATRIOT Act have anything to do with what you are talking about?

Originally posted by stevegmu
Can you tell me what sections in the PATRIOT Act have anything to do with what you are talking about?

Seriously?? Did you miss the point of his whole rant? Wow. He brought up the Patriot Act as an example of how this government is sacrificing our privacy and civil liberties under the guise of "safety". And the supposed reglious CONSERVATIVES bought it and lapped it up, calling anyone who argued with it a traitor.

He THEN went on to talk about how now they are getting their panties in a wad about taxes and health care, but ignoring the more serious issues about forced vaccinations and tracking bracelets, which ironically fits right into the mythos they supposedly believe in.

He did not imply that the patriot act was the cause of these new events. He merely used it as a starting point to show how religious fervor is blinding people and convincing them to follow evil leaders who take advantage of their beliefs as a means to an end.

Of Course, this is my interpretation of the OP, so I may be a bit off.

Edit to add: I find it ludicrous that anyone who supports things like the Patriot Act could even call themselves conservative with a straight face. Conservative, from my understanding, means small government, more rights to the states, and less influence over the lives of citizens; the GOP has done nothing to shrink the government, in fact they simply passed more and more laws to make sure that the only people who have a chance to "succeed" seem to be the people who already have. Course, liberals aren't much better.. *sigh*

[edit on 9-16-2009 by rogerstigers]

reply to post by rogerstigers


I read it. I also know the PATRIOT Act is used as a bogey man- especially by those who have never read it. Which sections is he referring to?

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by rogerstigers

 

I read it. I also know the PATRIOT Act is used as a bogey man- especially by those who have never read it. Which sections is he referring to?

Um, none of them?!? Is this sarcasm or cynicism? Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here.

reply to post by rogerstigers


He's the one who brought the PATRIOT Act up.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by rogerstigers

 

He's the one who brought the PATRIOT Act up.

So basically, anytime anyone mentions the USA PATRIOT act in any context, even as a side effect or causual factor in their comments, they must be able to attribute the title of said act in order to justify their comment?

He mentions the act in terms of his opposition to it. But his opposition to it is not the primary point of this thread. The reaction of other Christians to his opposition was his point. Why should he have to now justify his opposition to you or anyone else to make his point?

reply to post by stevegmu


Sorry, stepped away for a coffee.

To Name a Few:

1) "Sneak and Peek" warrants (Title II, section 213) -- this is the worst and sets the precedence for recent Massachusetts Pandemic law (refer to old post)
2) Tracking patterns of suspects to apply them in general patterns (directives of Fusion Centers)--Read the charter of Fusion Centers, then refer to link
3) Civil liability for disclosure (do a search on Washington Post dot com for how this has been abused)
4) NSL's (Title V)

Each of these provisions have been stretched the past few years and surveillance acts on citizens that have no criminal record have been predicated on the basis of it.

You ask if I have read it, and indeed I have because my Senator did not. Not only did I read it, but I wrote two different policy think tanks on either side of the fence because the legalese was confusing.

The Patriot Act began the slip-n-slide to the Department of Homeland Security, and then to the Fusion Centers (see above URL). Download the NIEM standard sometime, that is the common language between justice departments. Run a looksee at what they collect, then ask yourself how any of that is relevant?

Moreover, once the Patriot Act went through without anyone reading it then we get REAL ID, a biometric identification that the Fed wanted so badly they threatened non-compliant states with the removal of their citizen's ability to travel by air. Look it up.

When people started to object to REAL ID we get PASS ID which is worse in some cases, not so bad in others, but still...it is even more data collected on innocent people.

All of this was pushed with the old logical fallacy: If you have nothing to hide, then why do you care if we look through all of your things?

The fact is I don't have to have a reason aside from: I just don't want you to.

Our government workers are called "Civil Servants" because they are here to serve us, we pay them with our tax dollars. They are forcing me to purchase something that I don't want to buy.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by rogerstigers

 

He's the one who brought the PATRIOT Act up.

She brought it up.

Taken from Hampton Newspaper:

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine said Tuesday that he has ordered an investigation into how a unit of the Virginia State Police arrived at its conclusion that the state's colleges and universities are potential breeding grounds for terrorism.

The 2009 Virginia Terrorism Threat Assessment, produced by the Virginia Fusion Center, described Virginia campuses as "a radicalization node for almost every type of extremist group." The report singled out the state's historically black schools and Regent University, a Christian school in Virginia Beach, for special mention.

"Virginia is especially proud to be home to a number of faith-based and historically black colleges and universities," Kaine said Tuesday in a statement issued by his office.

The Fusion Center report "could be read to suggest a connection between terror or extremist groups and these universities," Kaine said. "This report is required by law and was illegally distributed to the public. However, I find the depictions in the report misleading and believe it improperly implicates these fine academic institutions."

In the absence of specific evidence of a link to potential terrorist activity, he said, "it is improper to single out these institutions for special mention."

Kaine said he has initiated an investigation of the "methodologies and process" that led to the report, "and I expect these concerns to be resolved in the near future."

The Virginia Fusion Center is an intelligence-gathering clearinghouse funded in part by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

This was BIG news in our region. People who "write in notebooks", "take pictures", have NRA bumperstickers, went to Liberty or Bob Jones...these are all shifty traits that give them due cause to investigate.

Google all about it if you don't believe me--in fact, even if you do. You ought to be mad.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by A Fortiori

Do you all not see that this is the first step in the slippery slope to us being embedded with chips?

A step but not the first step. We've been getting conditioned for a long time to be tagged, labeled, and tracked. We've also been conditioned for electronic money exchanges for a while.

Also, don't assume that because Christians support one cause (speaking out against insane government spending) they aren't paying attention to other issues.

I'm sorry you came across some who made fun of you for being concerned about other issues like the PATRIOT Act or our loss of liberties but we're not all like that. You'll meet many Christians on here who are not pro-Bush/Cheney and who are pretty upset with what is going on in our government and the world.

Sometimes it can get frustrating being a Christian interested or involved in politics. If you get involved, you get accused of being a crazy dominionist Christian trying to take over the world. If you're passive, you get accused of adding to the problem because instead of fighting for change, you just sit around waiting for Jesus to come back and fix everything.

Sometimes I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.

reply to post by AshleyD


Thank you, but I wasn't offended by anything he queried. I know why the Patriot Act disturbs me because like Cassandra (sorry, Troy reference) I knew what would happen. I said to everyone I knew that this was the first step to losing our most basic rights and all I got from anyone was: you want the terrorists to win.

I am a Christian, actually, which is why I wanted to speak to other Christians. Family business, as they say.

When we know that the new Rome (check out DC's Capital Hill, Tiber Creek, Republican form of government, Senate, etc) will produce the anti-Christ (typified by "greed", "cruelty", "oppression" under the guise of beauty), when we know that the day is coming when we will have to take the Mark, when we see that they are slowly encroaching on rights and freedoms, while backdoor biting the hand that fed them (NeoCon Christians) with the labels of domestic terrorist for those in the NRA and attending religious schools...why then, why, why, why is money the only thing that will motivate us to get off our arses to march?

It makes me so crazy angry! We threw out the Monroe Doctrine, set the precedence for preemptive war, threw out civil protections, cast aside the sanctity of home and hearth and we still call ourselves a democratic republic? We have thrown out free market capitalism and embraced corporatism...ARGH!

Note: Excuse me but I hit my limit and am now sliding into an emotional funk. Rambling dialog and mutters to come...

[edit on 16-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by rogerstigers


Well yes. Why mention it otherwise?

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by rogerstigers

 

Well yes. Why mention it otherwise?

Considering that this thread was a question, I will assume by your response to it that you :

a) are a Christian who has attended a Tea Party
b) and that you are fine with the Patriot Act, emergency pandemic legislation, Fusion Centers collecting information on the types of Tshirts you wear and the bumperstickers on your car (because we all know the supposed 9-11 terrorists wore: Down with the Great Satan tshirts), is all good with you.

Duly noted.

Thanks for replying, and I'll argue with you on another thread.

Any further debate of the finer points of the Patriot Act would be off topic as this is about "why" people choose fiscal policy to protest versus civil liberties, but should you start another thread on the Patriot Act I'll meet you there.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

[edit on 16-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by A Fortiori


Title 2 sec. 213 has nothing to do with 'pandemic law.' It merely states a warrant can be carried out with notification after the fact, if said notification can have an adverse result- such as the destruction of evidence.

I take it you couldn't find anything in the PATRIOT Act pertinent to this-

2) Tracking patterns of suspects to apply them in general patterns (directives of Fusion Centers)--Read the charter of Fusion Centers, then refer to link
3) Civil liability for disclosure (do a search on Washington Post dot com for how this has been abused)

What evidence do you have Homeland Security is using national security letters to get information about Conservative Christians? I can see Obama ordering them to, but that would make the front page of a legitimate news source pretty quick.

reply to post by A Fortiori


I think the PATRIOT Act is fantastic, and has nothing to do with fusion centers. Our intelligence agencies have far better things to do.

reply to post by stevegmu


Danke, Mein Herr!

That's all I needed to know.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

Title 2 sec. 213 has nothing to do with 'pandemic law.' It merely states a warrant can be carried out with notification after the fact, if said notification can have an adverse result- such as the destruction of evidence.

You wouldn't think so, but it does.

The legislation has been interpreted to allow warrant-less entry into your home if you are suspected of being a threat to public health (mind you "threat" they don't know if you refused the vaccine or accepted the measures), the implication being that you are treated as a potential "criminal".

This is my point, but you choose to throw out red herrings rather than try and address it, that the Act was written in such a vague way as to be stretched to fit situations with which it was otherwise unintended. In the case of a "select agent" or potential, all of this falls under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security.

My point, my arbitrary fellow poster, is that they told us at the time, what you are telling me now, that crazy liberals were turning it into a "bogeyman" and that it would never be used in such a manner; that it was specific to dealing with the war on terror.

And yet it is.

You are a potential threat to public health, your body a weapon if you do not accept the public health measures being mandated and thereby your house is no longer your sanctum. It can be invaded, they can wait for you no differently than if you were a terror suspect.

Three states: Oklahoma, Delaware, and South Carolina all allow for this.

I take it you couldn't find anything in the PATRIOT Act pertinent to this-

You are mistaken.

What evidence do you have Homeland Security is using national security letters to get information about Conservative Christians? I can see Obama ordering them to, but that would make the front page of a legitimate news source pretty quick.

You asked what I disliked about the Patriot Act specifically, and NSL's are on there. Our founding fathers were all about checks and balances and dismantling them, to me, is a violation of the spirit of our nation.

The Patriot Act was but one of the items I noted that I was unhappy with. You are latching onto that one because you think that I haven't read it and are now throwing out red herrings and creating straw men in the hopes that I will slip up and/or the thread can be derailed. What I stated was that the Fusion Centers (hence why I went to the trouble to place the article) under the charter set by the previous administration are trying to find the next Timothy McVeigh, as well as, the next 9-11 hijackers and in doing so have created a profile that includes Christianity and an interest in the NRA.

This has ceased to become an exchange of true dialog this is a point-counter-point for a one upmanship I don't really care about winning with you. The photo of your car says it all. You like corvette's and I like bug-eyed sprites. We've nothing in common. We won't have any understanding of each other.

At this point, if you would like to debate the Patriot Act, and I'm sure others would...let's take this to a new thread. I wanted this one to be a "Christian" thread for Christians to explain why they aren't afraid of the loss of civil liberties as it pertains to the Book of Revelations.

Is that what you want? To debate the Patriot Act? If so, I'll start a thread and invite everyone to jump in. I'm sure with you're superior knowledge you can assuage all of our fears.

Note: I'm only half-snarking. I really would like to feel like we're not the Whore of Babylon and that everything will be alright.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by A Fortiori

 

Our intelligence agencies have far better things to do.

Like this?

Disclaimer:This is still on my original topic because this is the abuse of powers granted to government agencies to support anti-terror activities, and something worthy of protest.

Defense Department Tracked Quakers, Student Groups

NEW YORK -- Documents released today by the American Civil Liberties Union reveal new details of Pentagon surveillance of Americans opposed to the Iraq war, including Quakers and student groups. The documents show that the Pentagon was keeping tabs on non-violent protesters by collecting information and storing it in a military anti-terrorism database.

"There is simply no reason why the United States military should be monitoring the peaceful activities of American citizens who oppose U.S. war policies," said ACLU attorney Ben Wizner. "When information about non-violent protest activity is included in a military anti-terrorism database, all Americans should be concerned about the unchecked authority this administration has seized in the name of fighting terrorism."

Spying on non-violent, Christian groups such as the Quakers? How "American" is that?

The documents come in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the ACLU earlier this year after evidence surfaced that the Pentagon was secretly conducting surveillance of protest activities, anti-war organizations and groups opposed to military recruitment policies. The Pentagon shared the information with other government agencies through the Threat and Local Observation Notice (TALON) database.

Because avowed pacifists like the Quakers with a non-violent history really deserve to be spied on by DOD. What's next? Surveillance cameras on nuns?

The TALON database was intended to track groups or individuals with links to terrorism, but the documents released today show that the Pentagon gathered information on anti-war protesters using sources from the Department of Homeland Security, local police departments and FBI Joint Terrorism Task Forces.

Military engagement in both Iraq and Afghanistan, supposed Islamic terror cells in the US, and they still have time to spy on anti-war protesters. Wow! How efficient!

If they're that good at multi-tasking it is a wonder that any planes were able to slick past NORAD and attack us on 9-11.

Among the documents are reports on protest activities across the country organized or supported by the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), a Quaker peace group.

"Spying on citizens for merely executing their constitutional rights of free speech and peaceful assembly is chilling and marks a troubling trend," said Joyce Miller, AFSC Assistant General Secretary for Justice and Human Rights. "Our country is built upon a system of checks and balances. The Pentagon’s actions violate the rule of law and strike a severe blow against our Constitution."



"The Pentagon has gone too far in collecting information on Americans who pose no real threat to national security," said Wizner. "It is an abuse of power and an abuse of trust for the military to play any role in monitoring critics of administration policies."


Money was spent spying on peaceful protesters exercising what is left of their First Amendment rights, and in their dragnet they scoop up the Quakers of all people!

There was once a presumption of innocence in this country. I don't care Steve what you want to protest, even if I disagree with it I want you to have the right to do it and not be treated as a criminal and thrown in a database with the likes of Timothy McVeigh.

This is the stuff that we let slide because of a disgust for people who would protest a war, because we felt that it was disloyal to the troops it somehow made it okay. The pendulum swings both ways. You mentioned Obama...what if you are under surveillance for being "right wing" and posting on a web board known for having paranoid conspiracy theorists? Is that "okay"? Would he be in his rights to do it?

Sorry, don't mean to pick on you. I know this could prompt another back and forth, if so ...don't straw man me with some of the protesters could have been blah blah blah. Innocent until proven guilty. If you're at a non-violent, anti-war protest, if you're religion's precepts is extreme non-violence you should not be scooped up in TALON.

reply to post by A Fortiori

More and more of our rights and freedoms taken away permanently and the only thing we can get off our arses for is taxation????

I've noticed the same exact thing. It shows me how corrupt Glenn Beck is. He is only promoting taxes, when there is an entire broad spectrum of things We should be protesting, or even rioting about. How about all the fallen Veterans We are supposed to encourage going to war, but when they come back from war there is little support, and NONE basically from the Govt.; when compared to how they supported troops going. Like I said a whole wide range of topics, and the People are once again letting Elite doop them. I know the Elite are playing with fire; in regards to hijacking the Patriot movement they have to give up some truth to gain a leadership role in it. This to myself is a very risky move.

Is the Tea Party's fiscal goals anywhere near as important an issue as the encroachment of your civil liberties, the removal of your right to choose what you put in your body?

Er, I'm not interested in Civil Liberties. I am absolutely interested in my Natural Rights as laid out by creation, and the cosmos. They are enumerated on a piece of paper called the Bill Of Rights, but the paper only outlines what I can see everyday all around myself in Nature. Should People really realize where their Rights come from, and that they are only defined for clarity on a piece of paper, then I think We could have some real movement potential.

I am speaking to my fellow Christians, so atheists and agnostics please use some restraint. I already know that you think it's all BS and blah blah blah, consider it "heard" and "starred".

Hey, I'm a heathen??? Where's that leave me?? I totally understand where Your coming from; with 80%+ of US Americans being Christian. They should be standing up, and screaming; they are selling their beliefs down the ole' proverbial creek, and they don't have a paddle.

I apologize for this unorganized, emotional ramble, but I am very sad now. Very sad.

Wow, if that was unorganized, and sloppy, then I know You can write some truly powerful works

S&F

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


Sancho, you may always weigh in. My original idea was to ask people whose ideals and agenda I ought to understand as a fellow Christian, but it got a bit hijacked, as usual.

Jefferson told Madison that the Bill of Rights was a bad idea because it would make people think that those were the only rights they had. Our government's very origins was to be small, and ironically the people who feel they love America best are the ones that argue against the intentions of its Founders.