Overthrow the democratically elected president, "how patriotic"

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Amen, Proto.

It is unfortunate, but it appears that things have gone so far off center, that it's going to require a national enema to even have hope of setting things straight again.

This guy is up to something no good. I'm not talking just about his dumbass reallocation of wealth, his ruining of the American economy, his circumventing the Constitution through his (Russian) Czars, his spending like a kid with a credit card.

He's really up to something that makes these things seem insignificant by comparison.

Nothing else makes sense.

Every opportunity to turn the economy around - he went exactly the opposite way.

Every opportunity to let piss-poor corporations liquidate was not allowed.

On one hand, it's like amateur hour.

On the other, it's like peering into the pit of hell, and he's tugging us into it.

And our damned Congress is pushing us.

I'd like to know why the government sees fit to bail out the automakers and bankers and leave farmers with their backs against the wall.

Before ANYONE jumps down my throat here, I was very much against Bush, and am very much against Obama (because it's the same $#!T, different @$$hole). And it's not that I don't like American cars... I have a 68 Mercury parked in my front yard right now! And do you know why I won't buy a new one? Because they DON'T MAKE THEM LIKE THEY USED TO. I kinda like having a car that I can fix MYSELF, in MY garage, WITHOUT a computer.
So what's the deal... We're bailing out automakers so they can go make their (crappy) cars in foreign countries (of course, it's not like America even makes the steel that those cars are made out of either way), and bailing out the banks so they can foreclose on more farmers, while the farmers are told to "suck it"? Hate to break it to ya folks, but the "family farm" practically doesn't exist nowdays... And where it does, it's dying. Sad place this country is in, eh?

Originally posted by dooper
First, taxation as currently done, is unfair and unconstitutional.

First of all, taxes has been done in this way for nearly a century now, and never has there been all this "outrage" until recently, and funnily enough even the blame for "income taxes" has been put soley on this president. So really its a matter of adding more blame.

Secondly, there was no real form of taxes that was ever officially accepted because the founding fathers never contemplated the need for such a form of system in the near future. So, by your definition, since the 16th ammendment was never ratified, somebody else could argue that no form of taxes was ever passed, so essentialy, in all stupidity, by your logic nobody needs pay taxes and we will all be dandy right? You take out income taxes, folks are going to argue against paying taxes at all, and I'd wonder how on earth you expect modern civilization in this country to survive, really now.

But I would love Ronnie to become president and for him to end income taxes installing another tax system that was never accepted by the constitution as well, the fair tax. Just moving the taxes from income to products, only for folks to make their daily migrational trips into Canada or Mexico for their cheap discounts. What a way to deal with growth for businesses in america.

If it's to be fair, then all should pay an equal percentage.

This isnt about what system of taxes anyway. By you merely claiming income taxes as unconstitutional, your leaving the door open to claims that any for of tax is unconstitutionally as it was never signed into law upon the founding fathers.

The federal government was only to provide for things specifically stated in Section 8 of Article One.

The US constitution:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

www.usconstitution.net...

No damn health insurance.

As far as I can see it, they have been given the duty to watch over the welfare of the nation. No where do they forbid congress from enacting law for the welfare of americans, and looking at the 40 millions americans who have pre-existing conditions or who cant simply afford to pay healthcare, I think that very much counts.

We cant all be businessmen, business owners, doctors, scientists or lawyers. In society there is a need and an inevitability for those who have no choice but to work lower waged jobs to contribute to the structure of society. For you to sit there and totally disregard the welfare of these people merely over your ideological biasness is a clear indication to why this nation went down over the last 8years, because of people like you.

How the hell do you expect a lower wage working class man who earns $420 a week manage to pay on his cigna healthcare plan with his other costs? Food, rent and savings for him to possibly purchase a house? To possibly open up his own business? And this excluding if he had a family to look after There are millions of americans who are burdened more with healthcare insurance than others. Its not only costing americans, its costing the country and costing possible growth but ofcourse there are tools of the healthcare industry who continue to turn there other way. Its not working for this country.

SG

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Yours is a heartfelt admonition. I buy it. You are right on every point.

This "old boy" legacy government, with so many skeletons in so many closets that will never even see the light of day

MUST GO...

This is "change"

What nobody even wants to consider is that the hulking, gangly, ghostly, grisly MESS that is our 20th Century-style central government......

Must Be Removed

That would make a nice mantra, don't you think?

— Doc Velocity



[edit on 9/13/2009 by Doc Velocity]

I just had a late bar b q chicken dinner! I'm going to watch The Man Who Would be king, one of my favorites with my wife of nearly 30 years and go to bed! i will post on sunday.
Good night all!

One of my favorite movies!

My favorite scene is when the avalanche gives them passage. It has spiritual meaning.

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by redhatty


You pointed out some excellent things regarding the automakers. First I have to say that there is one little item you overlooked but likely just because you might not have been aware. GMAC is a bank and General Motors Acceptance Corporation is in the auto loan business as well as the mortgage business. Chrysalis Financial is Chrysler/Dodge’s bank and part of their corporation so these companies aren’t just auto makers but financial institutions as well.

Having said that, from a national security standpoint we do need automakers of our own, and under no circumstances should we not have a strong domestic auto business.

However, the only reason the auto makers were in trouble was because of frozen credit markets and the poor economy. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai all posted record losses in the billions as well so it really had nothing to do with poor manufacturing or marketing that led to them loosing so much market share that they were on the verge of bankruptcy.

Loaning them money makes sense, buying them makes no sense.

In reality two things have happened neither of them good. The finally killed off the U.A.W. by making the Auto Workers majority share holders in the new corporations. The unions now own the bulk of the stock now, not the government and not the former share holders who only receive pennies on the dollar. The union though is no longer in essence a union, since the union no longer represents labor, since it is now in fact not only labor, but management and owners. Majority owner, so there went the last living wage powerful union that showed an ability to get a living wage out of the oligarch elite owners and preferred share holders.

Ultimately this will continue a trend towards non-living wage labor jobs.

The other bad thing that has happened is government now controls with the union, when, what and if an alternative energy mode of transportation will develop any time soon, and at what cost and what incentives funded by tax payers will be involved.

The Cash for Clunkers Program while a good short shot in the arm is a sign of how much tax payer money will be thrown at an industry crippled by frozen credit markets and a bad economy and to what extent it will go to begin promoting a costly green energy concept. The premise was to take older gas guzzling cars off the road by paying an average of 5 times their actual wholesale cash value to the current owner. The engines all have to be destroyed and the bodies junked as part of the process. While the actual customers received 3,500 to 4,500 dependent upon their qualifications the actual additional administrative costs of the program because of how the government bureaucracy administers and accounts for these transactions will be around 28,000 per vehicle to the tax payer. In other words a tremendous amount of money is being spent to destroy older working vehicles just to replace them with other gasoline consuming non-green vehicles. Not only are you taking cheap older cars out and off the market that poor people in a bad economy might love to own, you are doing it at a staggering cost per unit with no real appreciable gas mileage pickup or pollution reduction.

Worse still many of the dealers still have only been paid on a very small percentage of these transactions and many might be left holding the bag for numbers and amounts that if they aren’t reimbursed from the government will cause many independent franchise dealers who were teetering on financial collapse to start to go bankrupt and out of business and possibly pave the way for unionization and government take over of not just the manufacturing, but the retailing as well, which one has to consider Cash for Clunkers put it in to retailing by offering a retail incentive at tax payers expense.

The way it stands now with the Government and the Union being the major share holders of the Auto Companies is in fact true communism.

The significance of that is truly being overlooked and lost in the shuffle of a seemingly endless list of other socialist programs like Health Care and Cap and Trade.

It is also an ominous sign about the true state of the economy because the Federal Reserve could have simply lent GMAC and Chrysalis 10, 20, 30, 40 billion dollars like the other banks. Once the credit markets unfroze and the economy would have picked up they would have resumed being profitable businesses again and could have paid back the loans just like the bank.

People really aren’t paying attention to just how significant and ominous all these developments are, or realize this is something that George Bush, and not even Franklin Roosevelt could have gotten away with.

Centering the Obama debate and the current situation within the Government and how it is being run on racism and partisan politics is going to be the total death of this nation during what is in fact a very fast march to socialist/communist state.

It’s why the selected the first black man to be President and built a cult of personality around him, to keep the debate centered on him instead of the truly frightening and unconstitutional things that are being done by the White House, Congress and the Federal Reserve.

Drastic measures indeed might have to soon be taken by the citizenry to stop this rapid march to a communist state.

reply to post by dooper


Dooper my friend as I pointed out above, Obama and his corporate eltiist Masters are exploiting the current reality on the ground to drive the nation rapidly towards a communist state.

I have in fact outlined how it is not only being attempted but being done, by the communization and takeover of the largest manufacturing segment in America by the Unions and the Government.

That is not a bailout, that is a take over and a radical departure from any accepted status quo, any where in America's past.

Sadly thanks to the way Obama is being played the debate is being focused on why its wrong not to love the President and why you should love the President, intead of what the heck really is going on, on the ground.

We have a major problem here Houston.

The fact of the matter is people like the OP would love nothing better to engage us in arguments about how the Obama cult of personality should be accepted and embraced instead of the real reality on the ground.

This is worse than a Bushwacking, this is an Obaminization going on.

The two back to back one on the heels of the other? The nation will not survive it. Anyone who can't see that at this point just doesn't want to see it for the sake of not having to admit or deal with it.

We in some trouble son.

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Doc, right now we are suffering from what is going to be a case of terminal velocity.

The old boys tried this trick before back in the 1930's the last time they collapsed the economy on purpose.

Then it was an attempt to go facsist and socialist, not it's an attempt to go socialist/communist.

The old guys end up owning everything, and making more than even and paying less than ever, and paying us less than ever.

It's a real dilema.

Southern Gaurdian appears to be gaurding against the South, but the reality is that the South is going to need to Rise again to save the Constitution it failed to during the War for States Rights if Constitutional Government is going to survive.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Just because they snuck income taxes in by promising only a two percent maximum on the very top earners doesn't make it right.

Constitution, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4 - "no direct tax shall be laid . . ." and a direct tax is a tax that cannot be avoided.

The federal government, according to the Constitution, cannot directly tax the citizens, but instead, must lay the apportionment to the states, which do the taxing.

A direct tax by the federal government on citizens is illegal and unconstitutional - and I don't give a damn what those slack-jawed-goobersmoochers in Washington say.

It's clearly unconstitutional.

Get it?

And if THAT'S not enough, the Sixteenth Amendment only allows the fed to tax corporations.

Again, not individuals. Eisner vs Montgomery.

And by the way, Mr. Constitution. Since Congress cannot make laws retroactively, isn't it strange that Ohio didn't become a state until something like 1931, and combined with other CHANGES states made (which nullifies the ratification) in the Amendment, yes, I'd say the damn thing is unconsitutional.

Ohio couldn't have ratified it. They weren't properly a state. The Fed made them a retroactive state, but that isn't allowed under the Constitution either.

You see, they just make this **** up as they go along.

And you're defending this abortion?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by OldDragger


Wow....

the fact that over 49 trillion dollars were "suddenly lost' under the Obama administration
[edit on 12-9-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

WTF

Source???

Source please!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by dooper

 

Dooper my friend as I pointed out above, Obama and his corporate eltiist Masters are exploiting the current reality on the ground to drive the nation rapidly towards a communist state.

I have in fact outlined how it is not only being attempted but being done, by the communization and takeover of the largest manufacturing segment in America by the Unions and the Government.

That is not a bailout, that is a take over and a radical departure from any accepted status quo, any where in America's past.

I call BS...

Communist This have been the same dance for fifty years, everything is communist if it does not suit our liking A? It is becoming Corporatism, Multi national corporatism at that... I don't think you are referencing reality or history very well IMO.

Communist movements are NATIONALIST MOVEMENTS, EVERY SINGLE ONE in history
has depended the strong promotion of all thing patriotic - COMMUNISM cannot thrive and will never thrive in a place were people do not understand and openly PROMOTE communist ideals. Communism is an IMPOSSIBILITY if there is not a majority of the population who PROMOTE IT, DEFEND IT and ENFORCE IT.

IN communist state the PEOPLE are the KEY to its implementation, are willingly complicit in the TRANSFORMATION and instrumental in its establishment.

Have you read up on it at all???

There is currently no popular communist movement in the USA and without such a movement there is no actual Foundation for the structure on which such a system
flourishes.

This constant deferment to the word as applied to this case only makes for illogical
fortune telling and unnecessary pandemonium.

On to the Auto industry

Do you recognize which nation built the automotive industry???

Might the auto bailout be related to the fact that our nation and its people have a long history with the sector?

Or that a substantial amount of our work force would immediately have gone on to the rosters of unemployment in an already strenuous time?

Could it just be that the government was attempting to avert the lose of an entire industry and millions of jobs?

I have given you four motives that do not seem so far fetched and I would think a reasonable person could see the merits in these basic explanations.

It does not seem that your cause and effect parameters are even powered on.

Your assertion could be read as

Because Obama is a communist he took over the auto industry!!!!!!!!!

LASTLY

LET us look at some socialism shall we?


www.fbo.gov...


AHHH

LOWEST/BEST BID contracts provided by the RECOVERY ACT... gee

Notice where the money is going, not being redistributed to lazy poor people,
or mega corporations.

These are distributed and awarded on a state by state country by county level, the determinations are made by regional officials. A good deal of these contracts are specified small business or 100% disabled veteran owned business. Grants are determined by cost, local and timeline provided in the initial bid.

COMPETITION

CAPITALISM

Seems a great way to start a COMMUNIST empire right, by promoting COMPETITIVE BIDING on external contracts.

SawStop 10" Table Saw
FA5215-09-T-0033
32 -- Woodworking machinery and equipment
Department of the Air Force
Pacific Air Forces
15 CONS - Hickam Combined Synopsis/Solicitation Sep 12, 2009
36--CABLE ASSEMBLY (SEE BELOW)
N6339409T0140
36 -- Special industry machinery
Department of the Navy
Naval Sea Systems Command
NSWC Port Hueneme Division Combined Synopsis/Solicitation (Modified) Sep 12, 2009
RECOVERY--R--PROJECT NUMBER 322746, ARRA LPOES REAL ESTATE, ARRA Appraisal Services for Frontier Site, Northport WA Pre-Solicitation to Solicitation

W912DW-09-Q-0163
R -- Professional, administrative, and management support services
Department of the Army
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
U.S. Army Engineer District, Seattle Presolicitation (Modified) / Total Small Business Sep 12, 2009
Laser Scanning Coordinate Measuring Machine
RA1341-09-RQ-1437
66 -- Instruments & laboratory equipment
Department of Commerce
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
Western Acquisition Division-Boulder Combined Synopsis/Solicitation Sep 12, 2009
RECOVERY Y--Recovery Act - Upgrade Medical Gas System, Phase 2

VA-260-09-RA-0567
Y -- Construction of structures and facilities
Department of Veterans Affairs
VA Northwest Health Network
VA Northwest Health Network Award Sep 12, 2009
RECOVERY--PROJECT NUMBER KNMD08-1020B, Repair Roadway Pavement Hangar Ave from C to E Street, Hickam AFB, Hawaii

FA5215-09-D-0010-0002
Z -- Maintenance, repair, and alteration of real property
Department of the Air Force
Pacific Air Forces
15 CONS - Hickam Presolicitation Sep 12, 2009
12--Optical Sighting and Ranging Equipment
W52H0909T0216
12 -- Fire control equipment
Department of the Army
U. S. Army Materiel Command
U.S. Army TACOM Life Cycle Management Command - Rock Island Award Sep 12, 2009
Elevator Services
FA4855-09-Q-0043
J -- Maintenance, repair & rebuilding of equipment
Department of the Air Force
Air Combat Command
27 SOCONS Combined Synopsis/Solicitation / Total Small Business Sep 12, 2009
Mat Cutting System Wizard CMC 8500e
F2C3VB9105A001
99 -- Miscellaneous
Department of the Air Force
Pacific Air Forces
15 CONS - Hickam Combined Synopsis/Solicitation / Total Small Business Sep 12, 2009
Helmet Mounted Display Software
F1STAB9208B001
D -- Information technology services, including telecommunications services
Department of the Air Force
Air Force Materiel Command
AFFTC - AF Flight Test Center Presolicitation Sep 12, 2009

[edit on 13-9-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by dooper

No damn health insurance.

As far as I can see it, they have been given the duty to watch over the welfare of the nation.

Unless we get all English language on this biotch

en.wiktionary.org...

Noun
welfare (countable and uncountable; plural welfares)
(uncountable) health, happiness and prosperity;

GENERAL WELFARE (HEALTH?)

Synonym

thesaurus.reference.com...

Main Entry: welfare/well-being
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: health and prosperity
Synonyms:
abundance, advantage, benefit, contentment, ease, easy street, euphoria, felicity, good, good fortune, happiness, interest, luck, profit, progress, satisfaction, success, thriving

Golly it seems the only PHYSICAL thing the FOUNDING FATHERS could have been referencing is HEALTH.


Or maybe they meant the federal government should provided ABUNDANCE????

Socialisms

OR profit?

Socialisms

HAPPINESS?

Hippism

I was not going to reply to this thread but then thought what the heck..
I find it funny those who complain about tax paying Americans saying they are unhappy with how both the president and congress are doing things. That's what the tea parties are about.
Now take all of the tea parties and town hall meetings and compare them to the protests over the past 8 years. Show me where all the signs are to kill the president? Show me all the hateful comments being made towards him? Odds are you will not find many except many against Bush. What you will find are so called media so in love with him they can and will not report any facts. What they will report is how great their god is and how he can do no wrong, and any one who even hints at he is not a god is a racist. Show me where they have reported why tea party members are upset and call them tea party's and not tea bagger ( a sexual insult). Show me where they have not changed the facts to support their lies. Case in point the guy with a gun in I think it was Az. He was black yet they reported and made it look like he was white to cry racist again.
Why is he appointing czars? This is not Russia we have a vented cabinet to do that job. Or we are supposed to have. Yet as of now he has not filled his cabinet but keeps adding more and more proven racists, socialists, and others who can not even come close to passing a background check to work in a 7/11 let alone the White House. Ask yourself what would you be saying right now if Bush had done any of the things he has done?
It just goes on and on. A liberal media along with acorn and people voting race put someone in office they knew nothing about. See the black panthers in Pa. who intimated people but the White house refused to prosecute. ( You can bet if a couple white guys had done that we would still be hearing about it) Anyone who tries to use the small fact called freedom of speech ( the same thing others used without any issues the past year) are insulted or arrested.
So why should the people who are having to pay for all his spending be upset? After all he wants a welfare country. This country has done better than the rest of the world in taking care of it's own people and many other countries. Why should they have to ram this so called health care bill through so fast if it is for the good of the people? After all the ones voting for it DO NOT have to use it and no one else can get the same coverage they have now.
After all remember all are equal here except for congress right?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


You are right.

Now, I am not saying ANY other candidate would have done better than Obama...

But it is a shame when people only vote for someone because of color/a few good speeches. Not ANYTHING on the issues.

It is also a shame that you must have MONEY to even have a chance at becoming president. Represented by the average person or the "rich"?

Just a few of my pet peeves...

Our country had lies, corruption, deliberate deception, and conflict of interests crammed down our throats for eight years. If you people can't see that, then you are the ones with the issues, not this administation.

Someone is elected to office because he has the health and wellbeing of our country at heart, and you are whining about impeachment? Really?

What happened? Did your eyes grow so accustomed to darkness during the last administration that you can't see the light anymore? You've gone completely blind? Following in your icon's footsteps of slaughter and greed?

Someone is here who is trying to focus on the citizens, rather than just trying to start another world war, someone who is not a member of some rapture religious cult otta Texas, (wants to force the second coming? Oh please. George Bush thinks he can manipulate God? You've got to be kidding. How sick is that?) .....and who is not in the OIL business?

Yeah. Give Obama hell. How dare he try to give the country back to it's people. And no, the little tea parties are not the full representation of "the people". Sorry. Try on the "quiet majority" for size. The polls told the real story not too long ago.....



[edit on 9/13/0909 by ladyinwaiting]

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
reply to post by Southern Guardian
[more.

But it is a shame when people only vote for someone because of color/a few good speeches.Not ANYTHING on the issues.

...

My vote, as well as everyone else with whom I associate, was based on the issues. Nothing more. Sorry. Nice try.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


You mean those same polls that now have his approval index at -9 for the month of August? Or the ones on that link I just gave that have his job approval at 49% last month? Seems the majority disagree with you.

reply to post by Jenna


Isn't it just sweet how every body complains about how the media distorts everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, until it comes in handy for one's personal agenda? Of course, I don't believe it. You go ahead.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Rasmussen Reports is the media now? First time I've heard that one. And of course you don't believe it. Only believe the ones you like huh?