The Two Realities.

I post this thread to see if anyone can contribute more to this idea, or even to see whether people are ready to accept this concept at all. Please, do comment and/or contribute in constructive manner - although I will not dismiss objective critique.

This idea is something that has come to me by observation, although I am quite sure that this is nothing unique, and that many ppl before me have thought the same - yet I am unsure if it has been published in a same manner, and always - just like for me - it is useful to the people to think these things

So here we go:

The Two Realities

Obviously, many people say and believe that there is only one reality. This is true, but only in a limited sense. Of course there is ultimately single reality, like there is ultimately a single law that governs the existence itself. But to some creatures - like these walking humanoids which we call humans - there is at least two realities that intervene. A sensible person would experience only one reality, which is the true, objective reality. But most people live in two realities: 1) The objective reality, that appears similiar to everyone. 2) The subjective reality, which is kind of a reflection of the objective reality, only that has been painted with the colours of personality.

Allow us to clarify with an example and a picture. Imagine three different people which are you, person one and person two. Let's now say that you appreciate both of these persons; meaning that you consider both as a friend, and each of the others regards you as a friend. But person 1 and 2 are not friends to each other. This is a very common situation in human interaction; your subjective reality intervines with subjective realities of both these person's, yet their subjective realities are merely intervining with your reality, not theirs. And the objective reality which appears same to all of these three persons, somehow connects these realities. Yet, if the subjective realities (meaning values and so on) fail to intervene, these persons hold each other immoral or even evil.



Because of our dualistic experience of reality, we are unable to experience the objective reality as it is. The formation of subjective reality is the result of learned behaviour pattern, the social pressure, one's personal fantasies and many more factors, which contributes to the seperation of realities. Every time you take yourself a belief, dogma or build a fanciful theory in which you believe, you seperate yourself from objective reality - unless those beliefs you have, are one's of objective reality.

The further one developes one's subjective experience of reality, the further the objective reality seems to fade. Ultimately, neurosis is a result of this process. Easily enough, we spot this event going on in others, yet we fail to regonize it in ourselves. We see person that has been succumbed by one's subjective reality becoming more and more unstable and seperated from reality - and we are quick to judge that one as a nutcase, yet we don't see the same processes in ourselves.

It is most urgent that everyone that regonizes this process in oneself, starts to battle against it. If you allow it to swept you away, you are in the path of death - both mental and physical. The fight happens by auto-observation: You have to pay attention to the actions and thoughts of yourself. Observe the subjectivity of your vessel, also try to regonize the objective. Take a look of a tree for example: What does it bring into your mind? What kind of thoughts? Is it an obstacle of sunlight? Is it an important part of the ecosystem? Observe your thoughts in every observation - kill the sensation of subjective and defend the objective. This way you will come closer to reality and furthermore, you'll improve yourself and humankind in general.

NOSCE TE IPSUM!

-v

reply to post by v01i0


From A to Z, I disagree. Especially in light of the fact that a great many people confuse their subjective opinions with objective reality. Who's opinion do we follow? Yours? Mine? That guy down the streets?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I fail to see the basis of your disagreement.

The subjective opinions (as you state), corresponds with subjective reality in above text. No doubt there exists an objective reality, that appears to be the same for every observant - yet these subjective opinions (or the subjective reality) are those learned (often opinions of somebody else's) patterns of thought and behaviour.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


This is an opinion and thusly subjective:

No doubt there exists an objective reality,

Especially in light of certain things that encompass Quantum Mechanics. But please note I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I think you are wrong which different and I do respect your opinion.

[edit on 2-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by v01i0

 

This is an opinion and thusly subjective:

No doubt there exists an objective reality,

Especially in light of certain things that encompass Quantum Mechanics. But please note I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I think you are wrong which different and I do respect your opinion.

[edit on 2-9-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Of course, I don't mind being told that I am wrong. Please correct me if I got you wrong, but you think that there isn't objective reality at all?

Uh I seem to have issues with reading comprehension But bear with me, I'd like to read more about your opinion and the theory in quantum mechanics you are referring to.

Respectfully,

-v

[edit on 7-9-2009 by v01i0]

I think "reality" is relative to each person. Therefore there are an endless possible number of realities. I would not divide it into "objective" or "subjective". How do you judge what is "objective"?

Say a chair is RED to most people. That is an objective opinion because so many people agree on it right? That's why it's "objective".

What if a colorblind person says the chair is ORANGE? That's his reality even though everyone else disagrees.

reply to post by elaine


Elaine,

Good point, you are absolutely right. But please note, that with the definition of 'objective' I don't mean colours which appears as our subjective experience. I am not saying that I nor anyone can experience reality as it is, without subjective notion. I merely point out that there is an objective reality behind this subjective experience of it. If you would've read my complete post and checked out that external picture I linked, you would've been clarified with this matter.

Originally posted by elaine
I think "reality" is relative to each person. Therefore there are an endless possible number of realities.

That is exactly what the picture I linked, states: Person 1's experienced reality is his subjective reality, Person 2's is his and mine is mine, and so on.

Thank you for your input.

-v

[edit on 8-9-2009 by v01i0]

Originally posted by v01i0
Observe your thoughts in every observation - kill the sensation of subjective and defend the objective. This way you will come closer to reality and furthermore, you'll improve yourself and humankind in general.
-v

I take it you like Ayn Rand?
It's not a reproach just asking.....
It's an interesting subject, but I would have a hard time explaining my thoughts today, especially in English. I hope to return to this thread when I do.






[edit on 3-11-2009 by Ethereal Gargoyle]

I disagree that there are two 'realities'. When I think of the word reality, I think of something that is real and tangible to the world around us. How I interpret that objective reality does not make the interpretation a new and separate reality. It's nothing more than my own opinion/belief of what is real.

reply to post by sirnex

Originally posted by sirnex
I disagree that there are two 'realities'. When I think of the word reality, I think of something that is real and tangible to the world around us. How I interpret that objective reality does not make the interpretation a new and separate reality. It's nothing more than my own opinion/belief of what is real.

I see what you mean. But you wouldn't disagree that there is objective reality, of which we all can perceive? I am not saying that the 'subjective reality' is reality at all, except to the person that is experiencing it. Maybe there's a bad choice of words with my OP because you're not first one to bring this issue up (at least I think that Watcher-In-The-Shadows in his post was suggesting same).

For example, think of a color blinded person. Often they do agree that they are blind in the sense that they cannot see the colors that other are seeing. There he agrees on the standards of objective reality. But still the fact is, that he sees (for example) blue as green and so on. This is the subjective reality, or rather subjective experience of objective reality.

Would you agree if put that way?

reply to post by Ethereal Gargoyle

Originally posted by Ethereal Gargoyle

Originally posted by v01i0
Observe your thoughts in every observation - kill the sensation of subjective and defend the objective. This way you will come closer to reality and furthermore, you'll improve yourself and humankind in general.
-v

I take it you like Ayn Rand?

I am sorry, person going that name isn't familiar to me. I will google him/her later tho.

Originally posted by Ethereal Gargoyle
It's an interesting subject, but I would have a hard time explaining my thoughts today, especially in English. I hope to return to this thread when I do.

No worries, please come back once you feel right.

-v

reply to post by v01i0

For example, think of a color blinded person. Often they do agree that they are blind in the sense that they cannot see the colors that other are seeing. There he agrees on the standards of objective reality. But still the fact is, that he sees (for example) blue as green and so on. This is the subjective reality, or rather subjective experience of objective reality.

When put that way, it makes me think or wonder at what point your trying to make here. We all agree that objective reality, the one in which we exist is the only true reality; But what is this 'subjective reality' supposed to represent and mean in and of itself?

The brain exists within the objective world and processes vast amounts of information it receives from the five input senses it has, how the brain interprets that information doesn't in my opinion detract from the objective reality itself. Like the color blind guy, even if he see's blue as green isn't detracting from the objective existence of that particular wavelength of light. If I think about it, I would say the sensation of pain is a more perfect analogy for what your describing.

reply to post by sirnex

Originally posted by sirnex
When put that way, it makes me think or wonder at what point your trying to make here.

Haha, good question. It's already been a while since I posted this thread, I guess my original point is lost to the past

Anyway, now that you are asking, it may be that my point solely is to point out to the people, that their subjective observation of reality is not really objective. For example, if you remember that thread about "astral" travel where we used to have a chat? There I (and I guess you too) attempt to remark people that the astral traveling in the sense they were experiencing it, was not necessarily real in objectivity.

I think it is healthy for the people to recognize this "flaw" in themselves. At least it has helped me a lot... to become more insane

Forgive me if I cultivate poor humor at this fine morning. Sincerely,

-v

[edit on 4-11-2009 by v01i0]

Originally posted by sirnex
We all agree that objective reality, the one in which we exist is the only true reality

Really? How do you measure that reality? How do you measure the responses to that "reality"?
I am not totally convinced about this, but I think there is something to be said about "subjective" reality being actually the main part of every individual's perception of "reality".

Oooh, sorry, I see my English hasn't come back yet.....
Some other time.

reply to post by v01i0

Anyway, now that you are asking, it may be that my point solely is to point out to the people, that their subjective observation of reality is not really objective. For example, if you remember that thread about "astral" travel where we used to have a chat? There I (and I guess you too) attempt to remark people that the astral traveling in the sense they were experiencing it, was not necessarily real in objectivity.

So the purpose of the thread isn't to say that subjectivity is more real than objectivity? At least I would hope it isn't. If we take subjectivity at face value as being a true sense of reality, then we have to take the word of damn near everyone on what is real. We're now left with all sorts of thing's that *must* be real even if not personally subjectively experienced ourselves. That is a scary thought! At what point is something real or unreal?

reply to post by Ethereal Gargoyle

I am not totally convinced about this, but I think there is something to be said about "subjective" reality being actually the main part of every individual's perception of "reality".

It depends on your definition of reality I suppose. If you view the universe as it exists without requiring your existence as being reality, then what you subjectively experience is moot to what reality is. If you view reality as only existing because you perceive it to exist, then we are all either Gods or none of us actually exist or none of us objectively exist and are only the imagination of some greater being. Yet, if any of that subjectivity is true, then it need not matter how we conduct ourselves, because we are not real.

reply to post by sirnex

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by v01i0

 

So the purpose of the thread isn't to say that subjectivity is more real than objectivity? At least I would hope it isn't.

My purpose certainly wasn't to claim anything that would suggest that subjective observation of reality would anyhow exceed objective reality. Respectfully, as I stated in my opening post:

Originally posted by v01i0
A sensible person would experience only one reality, which is the true, objective reality.

I am sorry if you found my OP incoherent.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


It wasn't incoherent, I just misunderstood. Possibly due to the thread title a bit. I was under the immediate assumption that you were putting forth a concept of two tangible realities, but now with further explanation I understand better. Sorry for the confusion on my part!

reply to post by v01i0


Yep...

That's the core of Autotheism...

You live in your own world and for the most part when you think you are having relationships with others, you are really only having a relationship with all you project onto them.

In the end though, the objective reality plays very little role, for most of the time in ones life other than being the ground of existence.

So it's really not a positive thing to focus primarily on the objective reality as some sort of higher truth. Instead configure your own subjective reality consciously instead of reflexively. Your subjective experience is really all you can ever know directly... it is your soul. You might as well enjoy it.

Consider the Ten Commandments. These can be seen as a code which causes one to be auto-observant of their reactions, thus leading to a higher awareness.

Its the same with learning how to become aware of these realities you speak of. Though there are a different set of commandments :-)


[edit on 5-11-2009 by HunkaHunka]

One other thing... a little more abstract and a bit more mystical, you might enjoy...