Time for 'Don't Ask' Policy to Go?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
if you have a girlfriend or a wife go ask her if she would mind showering in front of a bunch of men

i just did, her answer, which i really liked, was "if i was able to trust them to save my life in a gunfight, i think i could trust them not to jump me in the shower"

I think it's how do female soldiers cope with men
Answer = They don't shower with them!

so it's just a showering issue?

Originally posted by pieman
i just did, her answer, which i really liked, was "if i was able to trust them to save my life in a gunfight, i think i could trust them not to jump me in the shower"

I don't believe you that you asked her
what does jumping her have to do with anything

ok so men could stare at women's cleavages outside on the streets, look at their asses and all and make it look real obvious, but women won't mind as long as they don't jump them?

Oh my god am I really discussing such a non-topic?????

nehow, I guess if you don't understand by now you won't get it later either

I think the law should stay as it is...

There is absolutely no reason for anyone's sexual preference to be advertised in the military. There is no place in the military for it.

Gay's can join the military, nobody is stopping them. However, there is NO REASON for ANYONE to know they are gay.

Don't ask, don't tell, because nobody needs to know.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I don't believe you that you asked her
what does jumping her have to do with anything

her point was that if she's in a situation where showering in tents is the order of the day she has more important things to worry about than someone looking at her tits.

she never had an issue sunbathing topless and, to be honest, i've found it gets old pretty quick myself so there you have it. believe it or not, the world isn't entirely hung up on nudity and body obsession.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
Don't ask, don't tell, because nobody needs to know.

great, except if you want a career and you need to decide between your job and your relationship. to say there is no place for sexuality in the military makes a triviality out of all those army wives and children.

reply to post by pieman


omg i've been debating with a nudist all along about the issue of showering with gay men

no wonderrrr you didn't get itttt

Clearly, the American Govt. (and the American public) doesn't study ancient Greek Military History...

Sacred Band of Thebes

The Sacred Band of Thebes was the elite fighting force of the Greek Military machine for an estimated forty years. It was formed of men and their male lovers, under the proposal that lovers would fight and die to protect their partner. Neither would any individual likely betray the collective, or show cowardice.

From the moment of its creation, this fighting force quickly rose to become the elite of the Greek military machine. It was unbeaten in battle and is believed to have been used in every Greek Military exercise, initially scattered to strengthen the resolve of the entire military front, but later as a close unit.
In 375 BC it destroyed an army of Spartans three times its own size.

It was eventually destroyed in the Battle of Chaeronea. All other allies fled, but the Sacred Band refused to flee or surrender, and when surrounded and trapped they fought to their death.
The victor in that battle (Philip II of Macedon), when he discovered that his army had destroyed the Sacred Band of Thebes, is said to have briefly wept, and then saluted their bravery and actions.

I don't think I need to write anything else, do I?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


i'm not a nudist.....i'm neither old nor fat enough to qualify. i usually encounter the toplessness on the beach, on holiday. i'm not american, which is perhaps about the same as being a nudist.

reply to post by pieman


I've run across this issue many times in sports, and I still don't get it?

You guys would really be that uncomfortable with a gay man seeing you naked? It is an honest question.

120 degree heat, people dying around you, camel spiders and scorpions, and sand in your clothes. Carrying heavy equipment and riding in humvees damaged by IED with plywood for doors, but your concern is someone seeing you naked?

Women serving in the same units, using the sandbox for a toilet, prisoner's being sodomized your prisoners and theirs both! Women being coerced and raped by commanding officers or enemy troops, and gay men trying to keep them alive, but it makes you 'uncomfortable' that they may see you naked?

I am a proud American, I am flying the Gadsden Flag, I honor the military, and I pray for our troops, but I just cannot imagine a hardened military man being this frivolous, and then having the cahones to tell everyone else they don't have a right to criticize his opinion (JD!)!

ModernAcademia,
I have seen your other posts, you are intelligent albeit a little too liberal for me, so how does this jive with your other opinions? Even your name scream liberal, but you are scared of gay men?

I am sorry guys, but this thread has really disoriented me! I would not have believed it if it hadn't come from you guys!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
120 degree heat, people dying around you, camel spiders and scorpions, and sand in your clothes. Carrying heavy equipment and riding in humvees damaged by IED with plywood for doors, but your concern is someone seeing you naked?

lol, ya but I don't think all those things occur WHILE you shower though!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
ModernAcademia,
I have seen your other posts, you are intelligent albeit a little too liberal for me, so how does this jive with your other opinions? Even your name scream liberal, but you are scared of gay men?

I'm actually quite conservative and do not consider myself liberal at all
in my opinion everything that i speak of is mostly conservative

you say i'm too liberal, but quote me any of my statements in any thread and I can debate with you that's more conservative than it is liberal.

See for some reason people think freedom, libery, equality is liberal.
But that makes no sense, people have been fighting for freedom and equality for as long as history goes back.

And I am not scared of gay men
I just wouldn't at all feel comfortable in the shower with them whatsoever, not even 1%, not even .00001% comfort.

reply to post by jd140

Ok lets go with your view.

No segregation at all. Men and women of all sexuality shower at the same time and share the same quarters.

Yea.. And?

Anyone who would bitch "Eww no, I'm not going to disrobe in front of him he's gay." is a pathetic little complaining wuss. You're going to shoot Kalashnikov wielding Islamic extremists but a little awkward sexual tension is too much.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
And I am not scared of gay men
I just wouldn't at all feel comfortable in the shower with them whatsoever, not even 1%, not even .00001% comfort.

But where does that discomfort come from?
And why would another's sexual persuasion even matter?
What do you think will happen?

I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense on this particular matter. You suggest that you wouldn't feel comfortable, but I don't feel comfortable around spiders because I have a fear of them, a phobia.
I don't feel comfortable around criminals because I fear for my safety.
I don't feel comfortable in large crowds of people because I fear mob mentality.

You see where I'm going with this. Discomfort has to be based in something, you can't just throw that out there and expect no one to wonder exactly what you really mean

EDIT: my point was made better by detachedindividual above.

[edit on 18/8/09 by pieman]

Originally posted by detachedindividual

But where does that discomfort come from?
And why would another's sexual persuasion even matter?
What do you think will happen?

But as i've mentioned in this thread, nothing NEEDS to happen
wandering eyes are sufficient!
Even if they don't wander, I KNOW that if i was in a shower full of women my eyes would wander.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense on this particular matter. You suggest that you wouldn't feel comfortable, but I don't feel comfortable around spiders because I have a fear of them, a phobia.
I don't feel comfortable around criminals because I fear for my safety.
I don't feel comfortable in large crowds of people because I fear mob mentality.

I don't feel uncomfortable around spiders or any insect, maybe lizards though but i've held many in my hands.

Dont' feel scared around criminals, I grew up in a tuff neighbourhood
criminals were all around me whereever i went.

no fear of large crowds, i'm actually quite gregarious

Originally posted by detachedindividual
You see where I'm going with this. Discomfort has to be based in something, you can't just throw that out there and expect no one to wonder exactly what you really mean

I'll be honest with you.
I feel very alienated in this thread.
Never knew this many people wouldn't understand my perspective.

I'd say 99.9% of people I know would not only understand me but completely agree with me.

reply to post by ModernAcademia

I'll be honest with you.
I feel very alienated in this thread.
Never knew this many people wouldn't understand my perspective.

I'd say 99.9% of people I know would not only understand me but completely agree with me.

Try not to feel alienated, because I truly want to understand.

Would you feel uncomfortable if a woman saw you naked? If so, why? If not, what is different?

If your clothes were on fire, would you have second thoughts about shedding them?

Are you uncomfortable naked when you are home alone? A lot of people are, but it seems very odd, doesn't it?

This doesn't seem to be a homosexual problem, it seems to be a nudity problem?!? No one has stated they would feel uncomfortable in battle next to them, only in the shower or sleeping quarters!

Would you also be uncomfortable knowing that many of your heterosexual bunkmates were masturbating under their covers within feet of you? I would!! My Navy buddies always joke about the one sock that would stand up on its own!

reply to post by ModernAcademia

But as i've mentioned in this thread, nothing NEEDS to happen
wandering eyes are sufficient!
Even if they don't wander, I KNOW that if i was in a shower full of women my eyes would wander.

Here's what I say to people who say this. Suck it up! Your a man for goodness sake, you're not supposed to be scared.

Surely if anything you should be flattered. Gay men looking at you - if they weren't you ought feel bad wouldn't you?

I guess I might just be looking at this a little too simplistically...even if it DOESN'T really affect me...since I'm a general, I have a private shower.

I would like to think that men and women we have protecting our nation, defending our constitution, projecting the power we possess as a nation into foreign lands, would be big enough to accept that a principle attribute that makes this county great is diversity.

I know in junior high, I really didn't want to shower with anyone else. That hasn't really changed. Just because I'll lay my life down for my fellows, doesn't mean I want to shower with them. At the same time, in a wartime setting, you make compromises and adjustments.

When I went through my 'general' training, the only communal showers were in basic training. Every step of the way after that, individual stalls were provided. I would like to hear from someone who has been to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any OTHER theater of operations, that isn't belligerent, that could confirm whether or not soldiers are forced to shower in an open bay next to each other. It seems to me that for morale, the army would have the resources to put up some dividers. If this is the case, it really isn't about some gay 'deviant' staring at you, perhaps having gay sex in his head with you, while you shower....it's about homophobia in general.

I personally think that to discredit a persons contribution to our nation, or his potential to sway a battle to the side of victory based solely on his sexual preference is backwards and counterproductive.

I suppose if we were an androgynous race, or chemically neutered then maybe we would make a better fighting force, one that could focus on the rigors of battle, rather than whether or not the guy killing the 'commies' or 'terrorists' to keep you alive is really just checking out your junk.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Would you feel uncomfortable if a woman saw you naked? If so, why? If not, what is different?

Well i'm not an exhibitionist
But no I wouldn't, because if she is seeing me naked then she is most likely my girl

Originally posted by getreadyalready
If your clothes were on fire, would you have second thoughts about shedding them?

Well i own alot of expensive clothes so yes
but if I had no choice......
Dude I don't know, how do I answer something I know will never happen?
if you are on fire you don't have time for second thoughts

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Are you uncomfortable naked when you are home alone? A lot of people are, but it seems very odd, doesn't it?

Nope!
Love the breeze, especially with a nice cold beer

Originally posted by getreadyalready
No one has stated they would feel uncomfortable in battle next to them, only in the shower or sleeping quarters!

True but gays in the military imo is a fairly new topic
I'm sure you will now hear it more and more

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Would you also be uncomfortable knowing that many of your heterosexual bunkmates were masturbating under their covers within feet of you?

If it's not the same bed then no I wouldn't feel uncomfortable.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I would!! My Navy buddies always joke about the one sock that would stand up on its own!

Navy is cool but army is something else
I heard about hazing
People putting a bucket of ice in your undewear and due to shrinkage tellin you "you have sex with that"

Anyone tried that with me I would break their face and crack their necks.

Originally posted by Welfhard
Surely if anything you should be flattered. Gay men looking at you - if they weren't you ought feel bad wouldn't you?

Or.... Surely not!

You are a bisexual so you have a COMPLETELY different perspective than me.

I am a conservative

reply to post by ModernAcademia

TextI heard about hazing
People putting a bucket of ice in your undewear and due to shrinkage tellin you "you have sex with that"

Anyone tried that with me I would break their face and crack their necks.

Hazing is something else altogether! I have never been a fan of the sexual aspect of hazing. I have heard of sodomy and outright torture, but it sure wouldn't happen to me!

When I was a highschool freshman at 110 lbs, I played football and wrestled. After practice a couple of the Sr starters from the team decided I would take an ice bath. It didn't happen! One of them wound up missing three games with a messed up arm, and the coach was extremely unhappy with all of us, but I was still dry!

Later the same year, one of the other guys was playing very dirty in practice. I was on the practice squad and he was a starter, so I didn't have much clout. After one play, I came up and pushed him, he pushed me back and I punched him in the face mask, breaking all the clips and pinning his head in the helmet. The equipment guys took awhile to unbolt him from his helmet, he missed the practice and eventually lost his position to me!!

Back on topic:
Why is it different for your girl to see you naked compared to a gay man seeing you naked? Or knowing some straight guy is playing with himself, compared to a gay guy just peacefully sleeping? Isn't a battle situation similar to having your clothes on fire? Nakedness would be the least of your worries.

What about a gay doctor cutting off your clothes after an accident? (This has happened to me twice!!) Would you prefer they wait to get a straight doctor?