Masons and conspiracy theories

He was shady because he did not want to have to lie bold-faced to his flesh and blood, so he was hoping you would change the subject.

My Grandfather was basically President of a Bank, and he belonged to something called the Broeder Bond, which I won't get into, but I never expected to get anything about his past out of him. You would ask him what he got out of it, and did he respond with great spiritual truths?

No, and that is revealing, because there is no reason to hide the gains a man has made in that arena.

Hi,

I've just read over almost this whole thread and after hearing jhova's rants vs the combined front of the freemasons, I do have more questions for the masons than poor jhova.

Im from Perth, Australia, some small insignificant city in the world, and even over here, there are about 15 - 20 local masonic lodges in the city alone, not counting the rural lodges.

Anyways, my point being is that out of all the lodges and masonic parks over here that I've seen, they all have an obelisk of some sort as part of there architecture or in some monument.

One in perticular is at the Kewdale lodge where in the middle of this beautiful park is an obelisk with a nice masonic dedication.

I need to take a photo of it and post it here if possible.

I have also noticed that at our cemetarys, a lot of masonic gravesites have the obelisk incorporated into the gravestone, instead of say the common cross.

Now correct me if i'm wrong but it seems to me that I can draw the conclusion that there seems to be some general consensus amongst freemasons that the obelisk is a symbol of importance.

Now don't get me wrong, my Australian state and national governments seem to love this symbol aswell and have adopted its image into many war memorial monuments complete with eternal flames that burn constatnly.

Our war memorial right here in Perth is an 18 meter obelisk with an eternal flame, which looks quite stunning in all its glory.

Maybe theres some connection between governments that use this architecture because I know the U.S. has a lot of them aswell, significantly the D.C. monument, which was designed by a mason, Robert Mills, whilst the cornerstone of this obelisk was laid by M.W. Benjamin B. French, Grand Master, Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia.

Obelisks designed my masons, and cornerstones laid by grand masters in masonic ceremonies.

There aslo seeems to be other facinations with egyption style architecture that known masons have been famous for, like Francois Mitterand, who commissioned a "glass pyramid" modelled on the Great Pyramid of Giza for the Bicentennial of the French Revolution. 666 glass pieces in total? some dont believe that.

I think the idea of masons having some fixation with obelisks and egyption symbols is pretty much undebatable.

How about the masonic U.S. president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who commissioned the great seal of the "all seeing" eye in the capstone of some unfinished pyramid. - the work yet to be finished maybe ?? -

Again, more masons using egyption style symbols as there own, on something as blatant as official government legal tender.

Talk about hidden in plain site.

I could spend a novel on the all seeing eye but i think ill leave that one, its almost popular culture now how mainstream that knowledge is.

back to the obelisks,

Well, im pretty sure that the first civilization that popularized the obelisk was the egyptions, which according to some represents the phallus of ra/baal the sun god.

From a secular point of view that really aint that bad, but egypt was a fairly cruel culture that put pharoh and the gods above all else.

The biblical account of the obelisk is that God ordered them destroyed once his "chosen" conquered pagan lands.

Really the only main critic of the obelisk is the christian bible and jewish torah, (possibly the moslem koran but i havnt researched it), and anyone who has bothered to research what they are, what history says about them, and the biblical account of what God thinks of them.

Can you blame Christians for having a go at the Masons for blatant idol worship.

Ahh worship you say, "WE DONT WORSHIP OBELISKS" is what ive seen a few times on this thread.

If you allow me,

Say for instance that the masonic D.C. obelisk is blown up tommorrow. or like defamed in some way, or some cherised masonic sculpture or monument is defamed or damaged wantonly by some idiot christians out there, wouldnt the masonic community as a whole want justice brought to the perpetrators.

Say for instance that your car, or house, or golf clubs or boat get destroyed or damaged by idiot hooligans who dont like masons, you would be just as angry about that too.

But why would you be worried about the scuplture/obelisk.

The other things served a purpose, and actualy did something in your lives that ment something like conveiniece with the car or leisure with the clubs and boat, whilst this cherised obelisk serves no purpose, has no meaning.

Or does it ?

Its given purpose and meaning by masons who build them in full knowledge of what they are while the masses who know not are fooled yet again by such blatent paganry. They are given purpose by a reflected glory, a symbol of the strength of the brotherhood. If they wern't, why do masons see fit to have them on there gravestones.

Its a symbol of Masonic power and majesty. A form of communication.

That belief alone is worship. Just because most masons dont personally get down and bow to an obelisk doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

Albert Pike was no dummy, so I trust his words when I paraphrase from his book morals and dogma when he says that "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries"

I dont know how important morals and dogma is today to masons, but the fullfillment of the 2 World Wars as spoken of by Pike and the 3rd to usher in the NEW AGE is a pretty scary prediction of his.
If you believe he ever made those predictions.

Maybe the person who leaked this information about Pikes grand goal is part of the currupted segment of freemasonry.

So I am going to assume by this, that he is still well respected and morals and dogma is essential reading for any high level mason.


I think its fair enough when some sites that are critical of the masonic order, say they openly have pagan symbols such as the "all seeing" eye and obelisk as cherised symbols.

And is also fair of them to say these symbols are tools used to communicate to other masonic organizations around the world the will and intent of the nation with the past, present and future administrations.

Hidden in plain site. Messeges within messages.

Maybe the reason for this obsession for obelisks as war memorials is because there a quite a few masons in power in Australia.

Masons like to boast of how many brothers they have in high places.

See how you have to find out yourself if a politician or a judge or someone else who is influential has an affiliation with the masonic order, and they just dont come clean on it themselves.

Why do people like that seem to hide there affiliation with the masonic order, even tho they no longer need to use the survival mechinism of going secret/underground because no ones is persecuting them to the extent of killing them.

So whats there to hide.

Take say a christian church, or a moslem mosque for instance, or a buddist temple. Most of these religous groups have no problems letting a stranger in the doors, allowing them to pray and join in the service and become one of them.

They have quite open doors in my experience which is reflected in there interpretations of the various religions.

Any judge, politician or someone influentual like that in society who is affiliated with a mainstream religion has no compunction telling the world they are this...... or that religion.

But not with masonry. What do they have to hide ?

The only exception in true organized religion is the Vatican. Which also has a taste for pagandry and obelisks, noting the one that sits smack bang in the middle of St.Peter's Basillica.

Personally i dont trust the roman church on the grounds that they shield the bible from its followers and interpret anyway they see fit.

Which in the end has led to there total corruption.

The same failure of Rome in handling corruption is basicly the same cancer effecting masonry since its inception to present day.

Think about it, rome thought it was morally superior to all religions, so became complacent and moraly bankrupt. She gave herself over to the devil so to speak.

When the masons on this site, mainly Leveller, post back to jhova, it seemed as if he/they where talking from some moral highground, with an air of arrogance.

Dont get me wrong, jhova means well but needs to brush up on diplomacy a bit aswell.

Anyways my point is that when Leveller said that the higher you go in masonry, you have to give up your ego in order to benifit the masonic order, if you dont give it up, your out.

But it seems to me that the ego itslef didnt exactly die but merely became assimilated into the masonic collective ego.

And is used like some shield of pride for defence of critisism like some reflex action.

Like every critisism of the masons is always met with, "they are the most charitable" "they are the nicest people ive ever met" " they helped me out with my life" "we take care of each other" "they spend money on hospitals"

Its like you feel as if the masons are immune from corruption and sin.

Like your above reproach, beyond critisism and own the moral highground.

Its like you believe that apsolutly NO BAD MASONS EXIST ANYWHERE.


I find that hard to believe because all men and women are capable of corruption and bad deeds.

So if you continue to believe that masons are some god like-charitable-help the poor-super-mega-corruption free-humans you got another thing coming.

Even in China where corrupt officials are put to death, does it not stop.

Anyways, some food for thought.


Some questions if they can please be answered by masons.



What does the obelisk mean to masonry ?

What does the great seal of the US dollar mean to masonry ?

Do you believe or disbelieve in Albert Pikes 3 world war prediction/prophecy/plan ?

How do you feel about Skull and Bones monopoly of the last U.S. presidential elections ?

Why is masonry so damn secretive ?

Is masonry ever going to go public and be more transparent ?

Why do masons hide there affiliation to masonry in public ? i.e. judges and politicians ppl of influence.

Do you aggree that if someone runs for power in a democratic proccess, that they should disclose there affiliation with masonry ?



Anyways that will do, thanks for ya time, interesting stuff !

the freemasons were using the eye symbol way before the bavarian illuminati was ? president roosevelt stuck that # on the dollar bill
and he was a freemason not an illuminatus



how is the bavarian illuminati connected with the freemasons?

this is some bull crap seriously the bavarian illuminati is an atheististic secret society there is no way they are connected with masons


masons have to follow a god to be able to join

[edit on 21-2-2005 by tomb_of_lazarus]

[edit on 21-2-2005 by tomb_of_lazarus]

Best...
Post...
Ever!

You are only going to get personal attacks for that one, my friend.

You put it perfectly when you said that Masons give up something the higher up they go, but that it gets replaced with something, the collective ego, as incarnate in Leveller, and Brother Karnes (who blatantly uses his backwards name, implying no significance).

Originally posted by akilles
Best...
Post...
Ever!

You are only going to get personal attacks for that one, my friend.

You put it perfectly when you said that Masons give up something the higher up they go, but that it gets replaced with something, the collective ego, as incarnate in Leveller, and Brother Karnes (who blatantly uses his backwards name, implying no significance).

You're just pissed because they make you look like the fool you are, akilles. Get a grip dude.

Originally posted by Qui Bono
What does the obelisk mean to masonry ?

Nothing that I know of, other than being a fine example of architecture/ engineering/ construction.

What does the great seal of the US dollar mean to masonry ?

Nothing. People make a connection because the All-seeing Eye means something to masonry, but an eye over an unfinished pyramid: nothing.

Do you believe or disbelieve in Albert Pikes 3 world war prediction/prophecy/plan ?

No.

How do you feel about Skull and Bones monopoly of the last U.S. presidential elections ?

I could care less that two presidential c andidates happened to be in the same college fraternity. That doesn't mean it's a "monopoly" OR intentional.

Why is masonry so damn secretive ?

It's not.

Obviously you need to do a bit more research on the subject before you
ask questions. If you think it's "so damn secretive" because others say it is, you need to find another source of info.

Is masonry ever going to go public and be more transparent ?

It has been the past few years. There's been a real and conscious effort to improve our public image.

Why do masons hide there affiliation to masonry in public ? i.e. judges and politicians ppl of influence.

They don't. Most masons wear rings and pins and have stickers on their cars. I don't know of many masons who try to conceal knowledge of their membership. Masons are VERY proud of their affiliation.

Do you aggree that if someone runs for power in a democratic proccess, that they should disclose there affiliation with masonry ?

Absolutely not. I don't see how it makes any difference.



You REALLY need to stop buying into these myths about Freemasonry and do some researech on the subject before you post already-answered, tired, repetitive, mythic questions. Everything you have asked has 2 things in common:

1. It's not true
2. It's a popular myth about the fraternity.

Don't buy into what you read on coinspiracy websites, there's much better, more informative sources of information out there. Use them to your advantage.

Originally posted by akilles
Best...
Post...
Ever!

You are only going to get personal attacks for that one, my friend.

You put it perfectly when you said that Masons give up something the higher up they go, but that it gets replaced with something, the collective ego, as incarnate in Leveller, and Brother Karnes (who blatantly uses his backwards name, implying no significance).

Dude you know NOTHING so why open your beak at all? PLEASE STOP POSTING UNTIL YOU GET A CLUE.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Dude you know NOTHING so why open your beak at all? PLEASE STOP POSTING UNTIL YOU GET A CLUE.

sorry i aint up to your superior intellect on masonic knowledge, and have obviously been brainwashed by some christian peddling hate on some web site,
but i wasnt trying to critize anyone with my dimwittedness.

I just wanted some opinions from the shields of masonry about why theres such a fasination with egyption symbols.

Dude, there all over the place here and undenyably masonic, its just observations ive made of masons and there symbols in my time on this planet.

And with the transperancy of the order, the only TRUTH people who are not masons know about masons, is obviously what masons say and tell them on there own websites and in there own publications.

Would i be aloud to walk around a masonic lodge, go through your holy books, examine all ceremonies and decide for myself ?

secrecy breeds conspiracy.

problem is when i type "freemason symbols obelisk" in google,


a million conspiracy sites turn up.
i dont see many pro mason sites or debunkers out there in my cyber travels

Originally posted by Qui Bono

Now correct me if i'm wrong but it seems to me that I can draw the conclusion that there seems to be some general consensus amongst freemasons that the obelisk is a symbol of importance.

Maybe it's just a regional thing in Australia. I've never seen an obelisk at a Masonic Lodge in the USA, and obelisks aren't mentioned in any Masonic rituals, at least to my recollection. In all probability, obelisks have more to do with architectural preference in the land down under than with fraternal symbolism there.

I think the idea of masons having some fixation with obelisks and egyption symbols is pretty much undebatable.

Not only is it debatible, but I'd wager that the statement wouldn't hold even under just a little scrutiny. It's true that a few Lodges have been designed on an Egyptian model, but there are many more Egyptian-designed casinos in Las Vegas alone than there are Egyptian-designed Masonic Lodges in the entire USA. The true fixation with obelisks and Egyptology, at least from my experience, seems to come from those opposed to Masonry, instead of from Masons themselves.

Don't get me wrong: I personally find Egyptology and Egyptian symbolism extremely interesting and aesthetic. But the Masonic Fraternity as a whole generally ignores those kinds of things.

How about the masonic U.S. president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who commissioned the great seal of the "all seeing" eye in the capstone of some unfinished pyramid. - the work yet to be finished maybe ?? -

Roosevelt indeed commissioned the Seal to be placed on US currency, but he certainly didn't invent it. The Great Seal of the United States was designed in 1780 and approved by Congress on June 20, 1782. Of the Committee who created the Great Seal, only one, Dr. Benjamin Franklin, was a Mason.

Again, more masons using egyption style symbols as there own, on something as blatant as official government legal tender.

As noted above, only one Mason was on the Committee, and Franklin's design was much different than the Egyptian symbol which was eventually adopted. Franklin's suggestion was a cut of Pharoah in a chariot chasing the Israelites across the Red Sea, with the waves overhead crashing down on him. Franklin's motto for the Seal was "Rebellion To Tyrants Is Obedience To God."

The Egyptian symbol on the Great Seal was actually created by non-Masons.

From a secular point of view that really aint that bad, but egypt was a fairly cruel culture that put pharoh and the gods above all else.

Yeah, it's a good thing that that's no longer the case .

The biblical account of the obelisk is that God ordered them destroyed once his "chosen" conquered pagan lands.

I'm curious...just where in the Bible does it say that?

Really the only main critic of the obelisk is the christian bible and jewish torah, (possibly the moslem koran but i havnt researched it), and anyone who has bothered to research what they are, what history says about them, and the biblical account of what God thinks of them.

See above.

Can you blame Christians for having a go at the Masons for blatant idol worship.

Well, the good thing about America is that people are free to "blatantly worship" an obelisk if they want, but of course, I've never met a mason who does such a thing.

Ahh worship you say, "WE DONT WORSHIP OBELISKS" is what ive seen a few times on this thread.

If you allow me,

Sure.

Say for instance that the masonic D.C. obelisk is blown up tommorrow. or like defamed in some way, or some cherised masonic sculpture or monument is defamed or damaged wantonly by some idiot christians out there, wouldnt the masonic community as a whole want justice brought to the perpetrators.

The obelisk that you're presumably speaking of, the Washington Monument, is not a "Masonic obelisk." The fallacy in your logic is that you seem to assume that obelisks have something to do with Masonry, and that therefore obelisks must be Masonic. Now personally, obelisks don't bother me in the least; but to pretend that all obelisks are somehow supoosed to be "Masonic" just doesn't hold any water.

Its given purpose and meaning by masons who build them in full knowledge of what they are while the masses who know not are fooled yet again by such blatent paganry.

Maybe I'm just a slow-learner, but I don't see how any type of popular architecture could be labelled "blatent paganry" (sic) without inviting a charge of silliness.

Albert Pike was no dummy, so I trust his words when I paraphrase from his book morals and dogma when he says that "Masonry is identical to the ancient Mysteries"

Instead of paraphrasing him, let's quote him accurately and in context:

"Though Masonry is identical with the ancient Mysteries, it is so only in this qualified sense: that it represents but an imperfect image of their brilliancy, the ruins only of their grandeur, and a system that has experienced progressive alterations, the fruits of social events, political circumstances, and the ambitious imbecility of its improvers...Masonry is not the Coliseum in ruins. It is rather a Roman palace of the middle ages, disfigured by modern architectural improvements, yet built on a Cyclopean foundation laid by the Etruscans, and with many a stone of the superstructure taken from dwellings and temples of the age of Hadrian and Antoninus.
"Christianity taught the doctrine of FRATERNITY; but repudiated that of political EQUALITY, by continually inculcating obedience to Caesar, and to those lawfully in authority. Masonry was the first apostle of EQUALITY. In the Monastery there is fraternity and equality, but no liberty. Masonry added that also, and claimed for man the three-fold heritage, LIBERTY, EQUALITY, and FRATERNITY."

("Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry" by Albert Pike, 33°, p. 23, emphasis in the original)

I dont know how important morals and dogma is today to masons, but the fullfillment of the 2 World Wars as spoken of by Pike and the 3rd to usher in the NEW AGE is a pretty scary prediction of his.
If you believe he ever made those predictions.

Needless to say, such "predictions" were written well after the fact; which of course was long after Brother Pike had passed on to his reward.

So I am going to assume by this, that he is still well respected and morals and dogma is essential reading for any high level mason.

Albert Pike is well respected in the Scottish Rite of Masonry for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, where he had served as Presiding Office of the Supreme Council. He is not well-known outside of this jurisdiction, except by Internet conspiracy theorists who read fictions about him online.
The book "Morals and Dogma" is actually the collection of the Lectures for the 32 degrees of the Scottish Rite in the Southern Jurisdiction USA.

I think its fair enough when some sites that are critical of the masonic order, say they openly have pagan symbols such as the "all seeing" eye and obelisk as cherised symbols.

As previously mentioned, the obelisk is not a Masonic symbol. However, the All Seeing Eye is indeed a symbol of Masonry; what I find interesting is that you've labeled it "pagan". From the context, I can only assume that by "pagan" you mean "older than Christianity," which of course it is.

Why do people like that seem to hide there affiliation with the masonic order, even tho they no longer need to use the survival mechinism of going secret/underground because no ones is persecuting them to the extent of killing them.

I've never heard of a single case of someone hiding the fact that they were members of the Fraternity. On the contrary, Masons are very forthcoming concerning it. We are understandably very proud of our Fraternity.

Take say a christian church, or a moslem mosque for instance, or a buddist temple. Most of these religous groups have no problems letting a stranger in the doors, allowing them to pray and join in the service and become one of them.

Masons likewise are glad to allow qualified applicants to become one of us.

Anyways my point is that when Leveller said that the higher you go in masonry, you have to give up your ego in order to benifit the masonic order, if you dont give it up, your out.

And he said that where?

Like every critisism of the masons is always met with, "they are the most charitable" "they are the nicest people ive ever met" " they helped me out with my life" "we take care of each other" "they spend money on hospitals"

These are simply people who have had contact with real life Masons and Masonry and know what we're about. In other words, they got their information about us from real life, not from seedy conspiracy theory and hate websites. Their testimony, because it is based on actual experience instead of fantasy and distortion, seems to be the most realistic.

What does the obelisk mean to masonry ?

Nothing. As previously mentioned, obelisks are not mentioned in Masonry.

What does the great seal of the US dollar mean to masonry ?

The Great Seal is not referred to in Masonry, nor is it Masonic. It does, however, share a symbol with Masonry, viz., the All Seeing Eye.

Do you believe or disbelieve in Albert Pikes 3 world war prediction/prophecy/plan ?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this "letter" is a hoax, written long after Pike's death.

How do you feel about Skull and Bones monopoly of the last U.S. presidential elections ?

I think members of Skull and Bones are too busy throwing beer bashes and staging panty raids to give a damn about the elections.

Why is masonry so damn secretive ?

Who told you masonry was secretive?

Is masonry ever going to go public and be more transparent ?

It's my underrstanding that Masonry has been public for centuries. Am I missing something here?

Why do masons hide there affiliation to masonry in public ? i.e. judges and politicians ppl of influence.

Who does that? Every Mason I know wears a Masonic ring, Masonic tie-tacks, and has Masonic decals on his car. Most even have Masonic jackets and Masonic baseball caps that they wear.

Do you aggree that if someone runs for power in a democratic proccess, that they should disclose there affiliation with masonry ?

Only if they disclose every other affiliation: Lions Club, PTA, Boy Scouts, Church, etc. To single out Masonry would be offensive and oppressive, especially in the United States, which was founded upon Masonic principles.
Nevertheless, I've never heard of a candidate for public office who tried to hide his Masonic membership. President Harry S. Truman even gave a speech while wearing his Shrine fez.

Originally posted by Qui Bono


Dude, there all over the place here and undenyably masonic,

How is it "undeniably Masonic"? Did you see them in a Masonic Lodge? What are you basing your assertion on?

And with the transperancy of the order, the only TRUTH people who are not masons know about masons, is obviously what masons say and tell them on there own websites and in there own publications.

What exactly is it that you want to know?

Would i be aloud to walk around a masonic lodge,

Masonic Lodges are not secret, and many have libraries that are open to the public. The public are usually invited to officer installations and other functions. You can also request a personal tour.

go through your holy books,

Holy Books are those that belong to religions, not fraternities. Most Masons are Christians, and their Holy Book is the Bible. If you want to "go through it", be my guest.

examine all ceremonies and decide for myself ?

No. Masonic ceremonies are for Masons. What you "decide for yourself" is your business, and what are ceremonies contain is our business.

Originally posted by Qui Bono

i dont see many pro mason sites or debunkers out there in my cyber travels

Then allow me to assist:

www.masonicinfo.com...
www.srmason-sj.org...
www.acts17-11.com...

thanks for the reply, there is certainly a warped view on the net of masons,

Well would it be fair enough to say that freemasonry has helped brothers out with say police matters within the freternity,

i dont mean like anything violent but like the myth of one mason going to court and signaling to the judge his memebership in the secret ways to get off paying traffic fines or something stupid like that?

i know that may be something masons may not want to divulge , but you couldnt help from the outside looking in think thats what happens.

If ya get what i mean.


Plus the whole obelisk thing is strange, like i've seen one thats definatly masonic, at one lodge in the park attached to it, and have been up to it,
and have seen other similer type obelisk style designs on masonic building Plus our nice big one thats a war monument for soldiors, so i couldnt help but make the connection.

See i jump on the net, type "freemason obelisk" in google or something similer and all this stuff comes up, and i instantly recognize what they are from egypt.

From what your saying its not that common amongst most masons.


but if you dont mind im still on the sidelines with the whole obelisk thing,
must be an aussie thing with the masons down here, and as i said the Main symbol of the masons, forgive my ignorance but im not sure of its correct name, the rule and compass with the G thingy, is on lots of grave stones with obelisks instead of the crosses.

just observations dude,
must just be some Australian mason thing.

look, dude, i DONT HATE MASONS , just confused by the net and some of the symbolism.


im not trying to bag anyone, and i will check out those sites,


Thanks !

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Also, check out this address: 1733 - 16th Street NW

It is 13 blocks north of the White House.

It is DIRECTLY north of the non Obelisk, even more directly than the White House.

It is the Mother Lodge of the World. Of the Scottish Rite, not regular Masonry, as if you can be one, but without also belonging to regular Masonry.

Also, if you want to connect 4 Circles, and a Square, it points to the White House. IT being an upside down Pentagram, of course. Washington, DuPont, Logan and Thomas circles, and Mt. Vernon Square, for reference.

Also, a symbolic owl is laid into the street plan surrounding the White House, and it would be jumping to conclusions to compare it the 45 ft stone Owl at Bohemia Grove, wouldn't it.

quote: The biblical account of the obelisk is that God ordered them destroyed once his "chosen" conquered pagan lands.


I'm curious...just where in the Bible does it say that?



im quoting leviticus 26:1
coupled with Numbers 33:52

there are many interpretations that are all similer from the various bibles out there, im going from KJV, but at this website bible.gospelcom.net...:1;&version=47;

you can go through all of them, it cleary, IN MY OPINION refers to an obelisk, and the amplified clearly says, Obelisk.

anyways religion is a massive subject and feel its best to stay away from that.

hey akilles, like its hard to draw those conclusions in this forum without upsetting people, i tend to lean towards that there is no such thing as a co incidence, especially in road and city designs.

this page that has already been posted
www.canoe.ca...

even some mainstream media is talking about it

Question: Are you like Lions or Rotary?
Answer:
In some respects it is similar, such as in our charitable works, but Masonry can be distinguished from service organisations by its emphasis on the traditional manner in which it passes on its ancient beliefs.


www.uglq.org.au...

this is the site for the grand lodge of queensland.

Yes, i chose the best question that may fuel the conspiracies that most masons are subject too, but its an official Freemason site of the United Grand Lodge of Queensland.

also

Question: Is it a religion?
Answer: No.
Freemasonry does not instruct its members in what their religious beliefs should be, nor is it a substitute for religion.

See i just dont understand the doublethink of freemasons who say they are not religious but as this lodge state that there Group "is a unique society concerned with moral and spiritual values."

how can someone or some group who is not religious or does not encourage religion onto members talk about spiritual values, when if you look at dictionary.com definition of "spiritual" as

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

seems like the word spritual is married to the concept of some form of religion.

This is a bit of a mind f***

getting more confused

Same as Masonic Light on this one.
I'm a UK mason. I've never seen an obelisk in a Lodge here or on a Freemason's grave.

Originally posted by akilles
You put it perfectly when you said that Masons give up something the higher up they go, but that it gets replaced with something, the collective ego, as incarnate in Leveller, and Brother Karnes (who blatantly uses his backwards name, implying no significance).

I didn't give up ANYTHING, but if you want to continue living in your delusional world and think so, why should I care? Did I gain anything? Sure did. But words can't express it and not everyone who joins gets it indeed. Masonry is labor. With labor comes it's rewards. And it's not world-domination or secret satan worship either. It simply cannot be grasped by the profane.

As to my name spelled backwards, if you're implying that it has Masonic (or other) significance you're more nutty that I thought before. I've been called Senrak by my close friends since I was about 11 or so. MANY years before I was eligible to be a Mason or even knew what one was.

(Private note to the other Brother Masons on-line: Sorry, guys ol' akilles-troll has discovered our most coveted secret. We spell our names backwards. Leveller, you'd better go ahead and admit that your real name is Brother Rellevel. ...Sebatwerk, well I'm not sure what you need to do.)