1,000+ page bill would make health care a right in the USA

This health care bill would never have even made it to the floor if it wasn't for the greed and corruption in the "for profit" healthcare industry.

CEO's of HMO's getting multimillion dollar bonuses while charging $15 for a Tylenol pill and denying the claims of sick people because they might have to actually spend some money taking care of the people that put their trust in them.

Finally the people might see some progress a supposedly modern nation deserves.

Originally posted by whaaa
This health care bill would never have even made it to the floor if it wasn't for the greed and corruption in the "for profit" healthcare industry.

CEO's of HMO's getting multimillion dollar bonuses while charging $15 for a Tylenol pill and denying the claims of sick people because they might have to actually spend some money taking care of the people that put their trust in them.

Finally the people might see some progress a supposedly modern nation deserves.

Who is going to pay for this?

It always amazes me how people get wrapped up in the emotion of these things and they lose all reason.

We have a 13 trillion dollar GDP with over 11 trillion dollars in debt and Obama just said that unemployment is going to get worse.

If you have no jobs, how are you going to pay back all of this borrowing and spending?

You can't tax the rich because many people will move their money overseas and plus you will stop economic growth.

The reason why the wealth creators are not taxed to death is because they invest in start ups and growth companies. If you tax them to death to pay for your social programs then you wil stop the economy in it's tracks.

People will not risk their wealth to invest in the next you tube or google which creates jobs, tax revinue, more opportunity for other entrepreneurs and this means donations to charities and non profits.

This is what socialist don't understand. The main thing this Government should be doing is paying down the debt and controlling their spending. Instead they are going on trillion dollar spending spree's everytime you look up.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

Originally posted by whaaa
This health care bill would never have even made it to the floor if it wasn't for the greed and corruption in the "for profit" healthcare industry.

CEO's of HMO's getting multimillion dollar bonuses while charging $15 for a Tylenol pill and denying the claims of sick people because they might have to actually spend some money taking care of the people that put their trust in them.

Finally the people might see some progress a supposedly modern nation deserves.

Who is going to pay for this?

I personally would rather my tax dollars go to a one payer Healthcare system than my insurance premiums go to pay for a villa or yacht for some CEO. Especially when I am denied treatment, have to pay a huge copay, for nothing.

This system will actually improve healthcare as it will remove some of the bloated corruption at the top of the current system and use that money more efficiently. I have no doubt that Obama's plan will save me money in the long run and at least get some treatment for my wife the HMO scumbags denied.

[edit on 16-7-2009 by whaaa]

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

It's not about health care or the uninsured it's about medicaire costs. The Democrats want to control the health care system in order to artificially bring down health care costs because of Medicaire.

See, when health care costs go up then the Government has to pay more for Medicare. Instead of the Government living within their means and controlling spending, they just want to spend and waste trillions and tax people to death.

What you seem to be overlooking is that in actuality the money for health care will be coming out of the pockets of those PAYING for health care. Its not like the government is going to magically pull some cashola out of its arse and say here ya go guys, free health care.

It also is NOT going to come from taxes. See this is a PUBLIC OPTION. And it seems apparent you dont know what that means. What it means is THOSE WHO PAY IN GET CARE. It is not going to come from taxes so don't sweat it smokey.

We have a 13 trillion dollar GDP with over 11 trillion dollars in debt. Obama said on C-Span that we are out of money and yet everytime you look around Obama and the Democrats want to spend a trillion dollars.

Who's going to pay for this? In a global economy with cheap labor, Americans can't sustain and pay for all of this borrowing and spending in Washington.

Already pointed this out. THINK about it mate. This is not Universal Health Care nor is it Socialized Health Care. The only thing being considered is a Public Option. Meaning you pay in you get health care out. The money is raised the same way private companies raise money. Dont want to pay in? Then dont. Get it? It is after all incredibly simple.

As to where the money could and will come from:

" PNHP Co-founders Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein published this definitive study of the administrative costs of the U.S. health system in the August 21, 2003 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine. After analyzing the costs of insurers, employers, doctors, hospitals, nursing homes and home-care agencies in both the U.S. and Canada, they found that administration consumes 31.0 percent of U.S. health spending, double the proportion of Canada (16.7 percent)" link

The USA spends twice as much on health care as OECD countries, an amount that equals $480 BILLION dollars. link

So it's not about Health Care but Prevention. Everytime I see a Doctor on TV they talk about Prevention. Americans health care system is fine and the uninsured has access to health care. The problem is Prevention and you don't need to give the Government 1.5 trillion to take over the health care system.

Dear god mate WHAT are you talking about? The above paragraph makes me want to pull my hair out for the massive lack of logic, or dare I say intelligence. 'the uninsured have coverage', really? How so. I'd love to see your proof of this mate.

And once again, WE ARE NOT GIVING THE GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF HEALTH CARE. The government is simply going to enter the game as an insurance provider. This has NOTHING to do with Socialized Medicine.

You can have a Nationally recognized Health Care Charity that gives out 2-3 free physicals per year to the uninsured and if the Doctor feels a follow up is needed, you create a catostrophic fund to handle severe problems.

You can do this and there would be no need to give this wasteful Government that already has us in 11 trillion dollars in debt another 1.5 trillion to waste and spend.

Who is going to pay for all that mate?

The Government wants to ration out health care in order to control cost and this will lead America down the road to Cuba or Canada.

ROFLMAO. "WASHINGTON (Reuters) - France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday...The researchers compared these rankings with rankings for the same 19 countries covering the period of 1997 and 1998. France and Japan also were first and second in those rankings, while the United States was 15th, meaning it fell four places in the latest rankings." link

Just relinking from my last post, looked like you didn't bother to ready it. USA is already at the bottom of the industrialized nation barrel mate, don't worry about it getting worse.

I was just watching a woman from Canada who had to fly to America to get an MRI because she was put on a waiting list. Well she had a tumor and if she would have waited to get the MRI, she might not be alive today.

Source please.

The last thing we need is a Government takeover of the Health Care system. This is not Cuba. People risks there lives to get to America from Cuba and we don't need Government controlled Health Care.

you keep saying the government is going to take over health care, a clear display that you have no idea of what is really going on. My advice to you is do some research and THINK FOR YOURSELF. You can keep towing the party line if you want, but honestly regurgitating those ideas when you dont know what the issue actually is makes you look ignorant.

[edit on 16-7-2009 by Animal]

It's amazing how well the insurance-industry funded "government health care" FUD is working.

Yeah, your new doctor is going to be Josef Stalin

Americans are finally going to get a national healthcare system like the rest of the industrialized world has had for decades - it's about time

reply to post by dolphinfan



Get ready for waiting lists for heart surgery, hip replacement surgery, cancer treatement etc. etc. Socialism always creates shortages due to it's terrible inefficiencies. Oh the elite will opt out of the system to be sure. There will be an alternative health care system for congress.

As for expensive life saving procedures? Well that depends on how valuable the government feels you are to society. Are you too old? Do you belong to the wrong political party? Does Mr. Rockefeller need your kidney?

This is the future of health care, get used to it and expect it. The Obama socialists will think it's great since they are yet too young to have many serious illnesses. Yes socialized medicine works great if you aren't really sick.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by dolphinfan

 

Get ready for waiting lists for heart surgery, hip replacement surgery, cancer treatement etc. etc. Socialism always creates shortages due to it's terrible inefficiencies. Oh the elite will opt out of the system to be sure. There will be an alternative health care system for congress.

Must be rough to be so far behind. Of course there are going to be opt outs man, the Public Option is only going to be ONE OF MANY options out there.

And once again in case you didn't pick up on it the last dozen times I pointed it out THIS IS NOT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.

You can bash the public option all you want but at least don't use terms that don't apply when doing it.

As for expensive life saving procedures? Well that depends on how valuable the government feels you are to society. Are you too old? Do you belong to the wrong political party? Does Mr. Rockefeller need your kidney?

So sad. You dont even understand what you are saying. The government, no matter how much you have been forced to believe it, is NOT going to be running health care.

This is the future of health care, get used to it and expect it. The Obama socialists will think it's great since they are yet too young to have many serious illnesses. Yes socialized medicine works great if you aren't really sick.

Well socialized health care is actually kicking the USA's health cares butt, see my previous posts we are dead last in the developed nation ranking.

And yes this is the future of health care according to rush limbaugh and bill o'riely but not according to reality, thank god.

reply to post by Animal


You need to stop believing all of the liberal propaganda.

Of course everyone in America has access to Health care. There's not a hospital in this country that will not treat an American with or without insurance.

The problem is Prevention. Many Doctors talk about Prevention not health care in America. Prevention is the key and we don't need to give the government trillions of dollars to control the health care system when they already have us in an 11 trillion dollar hole.

Obviosly your buying every piece of liberal propaganda but this is America not England, Cuba or Canada.

We can handle Prevention through things like a national health care charity or making health insurance mandatory for those making over 20,000 dollars a year and allowing Americans to buy health insurance across state lines.

Here's a video of Dan Hannon from Britain talking about the dangers of universal health care.
www.youtube.com...

Here's another video where it's reported that 400 people died because of lack of care in Britain.
www.youtube.com...

The total waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased this year; rising to 17.7 weeks in 2003 (from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02).

“Canadians are waiting almost 18 weeks for essential medical care. And these lineups have almost doubled over the past ten years. The standard solution -- throwing more money at the problem -- is just not working. The federal and provincial governments are still failing to act in the face of international evidence that increasing patient options for private care reduces waiting times,” said John R. Graham, the Institute’s director of health and pharmaceutical policy research.

...

The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 8.3 weeks, an increase of 14 percent over last year (7.3 weeks).

The shortest waits for specialist consultations were found in British Columbia (6.7 weeks), Manitoba (6.9 weeks), and Saskatchewan (7 weeks). The longest waits for specialist consultations occurred in Newfoundland (12.6 weeks), New Brunswick (11.8 weeks), and Alberta (10 weeks).

...

The growing waits to see a specialist and to receive treatment were not the only delays facing patients in 2003. Patients also experienced significant waiting times for computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and ultrasound scans.

The median wait across Canada for a CT scan was 5.5 weeks. The shortest wait for computed tomography was in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Prince Edward Island (8 weeks).

www.parapundit.com...

Here's more:

In England, health care is "free"—as long as you don't mind waiting. People wait so long for dentist appointments that some pull their own teeth. At any one time, half a million people are waiting to get into a British hospital. A British paper reports that one hospital tried to save money by not changing bedsheets. Instead of washing sheets, the staff was encouraged to just turn them over.

Obama insists he is not "trying to bring about government-run healthcare."

"But government management does the same thing," says Sally Pipes of the Pacific Research Institute. "To reduce costs they'll have to ration—deny—care."

"People line up for care, some of them die. That's what happens," says Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure. He liked Canada's government health care until he started treating patients.

"The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting for radiation therapy, waiting for the knee replacement so they could finally walk up to the second floor of their house." "You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! Just wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! Just wait six months."

westernstandard.blogs.com...

You can't treat a capitalist country of 200 million with a 13 trillion dollar GDP like Cuba who has a GDP of 45.58 billion and a population of 11 million.

You make like the horrors of Englands health care system and you may like that the Government is tanking the economy but In America, I don't think the Government deserves to waste and spend trillions more when they have us in 11 trillion dollars plus in debt.

Yes, it will be a Government takeover.

The reason they want to control the health care system is to ration healthcare because of Medicaire. It has nothing to do with the uninsured.

[edit on 16-7-2009 by Matrix Rising]

Universal Health Care in Britain is a disaster.

We don't need rationed Health Care in America!!

Long wait times have become second nature, despite dangerous consequences. In the period between 2001 and 2006, the United Kingdom saw the median wait time increase from 44 to 51 days for hospital admission after the decision to admit had been made. In 2004, according to a BBC report, waiting times in Scotland and England were 8 months for cataract surgery, 11 months for hip surgery, 12 months for knee replacement, 5 months for repairing a slipped disk, and 5 months for hernia operations. In 2007, in 42% of the localities surveyed, hospitals had to turn women in childbirth away because their maternity wards were full.

Former British diplomat Christopher Denne had prostate cancer symptoms and went to his NHS entry-level doctor. It then took six weeks to see an urologist who did not obtain a biopsy for 10 more months. The biopsy was positive for prostate cancer, but Denne had to wait another three months for another test to determine if the cancer had spread. Unfortunately it had, but after more than 14 months, the time for early treatment options had passed.

Waiting times are not the only way in which the NHS rations care. The government’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) advises which high-cost treatments should and should not be covered. As reported in the June 8 Time magazine, “NICE uses a metric called quality-adjusted life year (QALY), which grades a person’s health-related quality of life from 0 to 1. ... NICE rarely approves a drug that costs more than 45,000 per QALY.” For example, it recently chose not to pay for two expensive colon cancer drugs for NHS patients.

www.nrlc.org...

The Government in this country should have to control their spending. They never want to do this. When any problem occurs they just want to waste and spend trillions.

This is silly and it has to stop.

They should have to pay out Medicair costs like they promised and control spending in other areas. They don't need trillions of dollars to take over the health care system and ration out health care.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by Animal

 

You need to stop believing all of the liberal propaganda.

And you need to stop believing all the conservative propaganda...

.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Universal Health Care in Britain is a disaster.

We don't need rationed Health Care in America!!

Former British diplomat Christopher Denne had prostate cancer symptoms and went to his NHS entry-level doctor. It then took six weeks to see an urologist who did not obtain a biopsy for 10 more months. The biopsy was positive for prostate cancer, but Denne had to wait another three months for another test to determine if the cancer had spread. Unfortunately it had, but after more than 14 months, the time for early treatment options had passed.

Well, here, in the Colonies, my PC was taken care of within 2 months from suggestion to biopsy to treatment. $32 dollar paid for parking at the cancer centre. You don't think American deserve that kind of treatment, at that kind of cost? I will also mention the fact that PC is one of the slowest forms of cancer.

I just don't know what you guys are fighting. I can respect a constitutional response that the government has no role in delivering medicine, though I don't understand it. But you guys are getting screwed and you're fighting to maintain it!

[edit on 16-7-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

reply to post by Matrix Rising


YPur sources are WEAK.

My sources were a collection of information outlets. Take them time to look them over they are NOT in anyway liberal propaganda sites, they are a collection of both left and right leaning sources.

My favorite one to point out to you is this one (because you made such a fuss about waiting times): BUSSINESS WEEK is a known right leaning source of information and they say this about the wait times:

In reality, both data and anecdotes show that the American people are already waiting as long or longer than patients living with universal health-care systems.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by Animal

 

You need to stop believing all of the liberal propaganda.

And you need to stop believing all the conservative propaganda...

.

It's not propaganda it's facts. We don't need Government rationing health care in America. This is not Cuba, Canada or Great Britain.

We don't have the money. They borrowed and spent like crazy under Bush and now they are doing it under Obama.

The American people need to say enough is enough and they need to stop the kids(Congress) from wasting and spending our money and it's money that hasn't even been created yet.

How can we pay for all of this spending without jobs? We will not create the kind of jobs or enough jobs to sustain this spending in a Global economy with cheap labor.

Again, let England, Cuba and Canada have rationed health care, we don't need it here.

reply to post by Animal


Gee where will the folks from your great socialist paradise go to now when they have life threatening illnesses?

Canadians flock to US for healthcare

When healthcare becomes a right it will have to be rationed. That's how all your socialist systems work. That's why Brit.s don't have any oral surgeons or why Canadians come to the US for heart surgery if they want to live.

I'm amazed how we have to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Yes American liberals will finally get socialism right since they are soooo much smarter and more enlightened than Stalin or Mao ever was. Clearly, just because it has destroyed every economy that has tried it, doesn't mean that it will happen to us.

reply to post by SevenThunders


Wow, must be rough bieng so out of touch!

THERE WILL NOT BE A SOCIALIST SYSTEM INSTALLED IN THE USA.

NO ONE IN THE USA IS PROPOSING A SOCIALIST SYSTEM.

Come back when you actually know what is going on, we will talk then.

The world and some in America want this country to be socialist. They want the Government to control everything.

This is America not Britain, Canada or Cuba.

We don't need rationed health care in this country. We don't need the Government controlling every aspect of our lives.

This country was built on freedom and the liberty of the individual. This is why we have prospered.

It's because the founders wanted a limited government that would protect the God Given rights of the individual and not a Behemoth that waste's and spends trillions of dollars.

Our children and grandchildren will be debt slaves because we can't sustain all of this borrowing and spending.

We can manage prevention in this country because every American has access to health care when they get sick. The problam is Preventive care.

We can control and fix this problem without a trillion dollar giveaway to Government.

The last trillion was supposed to produce jobs and unemployment was not supposed to rise over 8% according to Obama. That has already occured and he says it's going to get worse.

The Government is out of control.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by Animal

 

You need to stop believing all of the liberal propaganda.

And you need to stop believing all the conservative propaganda...

.

It's not propaganda it's facts.

Ok... sure... that's what the liberals say about *their* propaganda too....



[edit on 16-7-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by SevenThunders


Exactly Seven Thunders.

Why ddo they think Cubans risk their lives to get to America?

I don't know why Americans want this Government to be socialist. Socialism kills the spirit of the Individual because it wants group think.

If we go to rationed healthcare only the rich will have quality health care and the poor's healthcare will be rationed.

This is why Wal-Mart wants this plan. They can put there employess in a Government run program and they can recieve rationed health care while the Executives can afford treatment on the spot.

The executives can get MRI's and results in 24 hours but the poor will have to wait 3 to 6 months.

The Government doesn't need to go on another trillion dollar spending spree.

reply to post by Animal

You must not be paying attention. Did you see the price tag of the new bill?
1.5 trillion. Where does that money come from?

Answer: the public sector. Either they have to raise taxes sky high or print money. That is a defacto take over of the US economy and makes the government the biggest player in the industry by far. Guess what happens when you create a class dependent on your largesse? You own them.

Yup its socialism as far as I can see. You know the saying, put lipstick on a pig......

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

Exactly Seven Thunders.

Why ddo they think Cubans risk their lives to get to America?

Do you know the difference between running *from* something and running *to* something?

Do you have an understanding of degrees of difference and locations?

For example, why aren't Cubans fleeing to the UK? Well for one IT'S TOO DAMNED FAR.

So when you posit a question like "Why are so many cubans risking their lives to leave Cuba" You should also contemplate all of the various factors that go into such a complex human action.