1,000+ page bill would make health care a right in the USA

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Oh noes the evil socialism,an ideaology is only as evil as those enforcing it.And incase you didn't know...America has its fair share of socialism already.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by Animal

 

You must not be paying attention. Did you see the price tag of the new bill?
1.5 trillion. Where does that money come from?

Answer: the public sector. Either they have to raise taxes sky high or print money. That is a defacto take over of the US economy and makes the government the biggest player in the industry by far. Guess what happens when you create a class dependent on your largesse? You own them.

Yup its socialism as far as I can see. You know the saying, put lipstick on a pig......

Ok, now where are your complaints about the cost of healthcare skyrocketing and folks who can't even get any?

I see you complaining about the current solutions... what are yours?

Or are you completely satisfied with the current health industry? I mean look at all the healthy Americans out there....

Again, let England, Cuba and Canada have rationed health care, we don't need it here.

Speak for yourself.

I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of Americans disagree.

reply to post by xmotex




Yep... I disagree too!

I'm ready for healthcare as a right! This American votes YES!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

Exactly Seven Thunders.

Why ddo they think Cubans risk their lives to get to America?

Do you know the difference between running *from* something and running *to* something?

Do you have an understanding of degrees of difference and locations?

For example, why aren't Cubans fleeing to the UK? Well for one IT'S TOO DAMNED FAR.

So when you posit a question like "Why are so many cubans risking their lives to leave Cuba" You should also contemplate all of the various factors that go into such a complex human action.

Nope, these are not complex issues. I know many liberals want to make it complex because they always have to resort to, you just don't understand.

The problem is simple and it's called Freedom.

A boxer doesn't want to Box for the state, he wants the freedom to dream and try to acheive his goal.

The mother wants her children to live in freedom and achieve their dreams and not live for the state.

It's very simple and very human. This is what the Founders of this country realized. That you can't control the human soul because individuals have different hopes and dreams and things like socialism and communism kill the spirit of the individual.

We don't need rationed health care in this country. We don't need to be like Britain, Cuba or Canada. I wish Americans would realize this. What Obama and the Democrats are doing is destroying the economy in order to carry out their social programs.

Bush did the same thing. He borrowed and spent too much. We don't have it. The Government is not their to redistribute wealth. They are there to protect the God Given liberty of the individual.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Ya! Us Americans would prefer to have the WORST health care of any industrialized advanced nation.

None of this sissy, good, sound and affordable health care!

I'd rather be dead and free than healthy and, um....not free?

Originally posted by Animal

The USA spends twice as much on health care as OECD countries, an amount that equals $480 BILLION dollars. link

Now, I'm wondering, does this statistic take into account the ratio of population count:Healthcare costs, as well as, the cost of the healthcare for the unemployed and homeless of each nation that hospitals/government/etc... have to foot the bill for. I would think that would have a somewhat significant effect on the figures....time to do some number hunting I guess.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
The Government is out of control.

No, Government is out of control of the PEOPLE and it is still fully under control of the big corporations.

Yep, those same corporations everybody is kissing their butts around here...

Those same corporations who are spending literally millions a year to brainwash American people into believing that what they do is the best for this country and it's people and the way they do it is the best damn possible way in the world

Funny thing though is that all of these lil' (standard and rehashed all over again) "stories" about "huge waits" and "sub-standard" quality of NHC in other countries big corps are planting into the brains of American sheeple for all of these years are actually accepted as "facts", but when people from all over the world testify right here and NOW and reveal their own positive experience they are being ridiculed.

Most loud individuals around here who are against systems in other countries are most likely the ones who never, ever lived in any of them, and never experienced that very system they are against. Hilarious :p

But despair not ya all, there is actually one thing we Americans are really the BEST in in the whole damn world, judging others

Originally posted by numo16

Originally posted by Animal

The USA spends twice as much on health care as OECD countries, an amount that equals $480 BILLION dollars. link

Now, I'm wondering, does this statistic take into account the ratio of population count:Healthcare costs, as well as, the cost of the healthcare for the unemployed and homeless of each nation that hospitals/government/etc... have to foot the bill for. I would think that would have a somewhat significant effect on the figures....time to do some number hunting I guess.

Good question. Let's look at the population and GDP of some of the countries listed in this bogus study.

America

Population 200 million GDP 13 Trillion

Canada

Population 33 million GDP 1.2 Trillion

France

Population 61 Million GDP 2.5 Trillion

Germany

Population 82 million GDP 2.8 Trillion

I can go on and on but you get the picture.

The reason we spend more on health care care is because we have a bigger population and a bigger economy.

This is why the EU was started because they wanted a bigger GDP to compete with America.

We don't need to become like Britain, Cuba or Canada. Americans have 13 trillion dollar economy and big Government is flushing it down the drain.

reply to post by 5thElement


Wrong!

It has nothing to do with evil Corporations. Corporations are about profit so they are amoral in this situation.

The problem is Government because they are bought and paid for and then they don't regulate, they look the other way.

If you had a ban on corporate lobbying and public financing of campaigns than you could remove much of the influence that business has over Washington.

If business can pay off politicians to give them an edge, they will do it.

There will always be greed but you don't control that by wasting and spending trillions of dollars. You do that by controlling and limiting government.

Both parties are bought and paid for. So the blame doesn't go to the evil corporation because corporations are amoral. They will always do what's best for the Corporation.

Government is to do what's best to protect the people and both parties are bought and paid for.

You need:

Term limits
Public financing of campaigns
ban on corporate lobbying

The people in congress use evil business as a scapegoat while they are taking their money and perks and then telling you they need to waste and spend trillions of dollars.

Left to pick up most of the tab were medical providers, employers and the wealthy.





This country will fail.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
ban on corporate lobbying

Lol.

How come if Corporations are amoral that we need BAN on lobbying ?

Do you have another example of amoral and moral things that should be banned ?

I was always under impression that we only ban UNMORAL things here in USA ...

reply to post by 5thElement


If you would have read my post, that would be self-explanatory.

Corporations are neither good nor evil. Corporations are amoral because they will do what's best for the Corporation.

What's best for the Corporation is not always what's best for the American people. This is why you need a ban on Corporate lobbying. So the Corporations can not control Government through money.

It doesn't make a Corporation evil because they are doing what they thinks is best for the Corporation.

What's evil is when politicians who are elected to protect the rights of the individual look the other way when they get a big donation.

It's very simple.

reply to post by HunkaHunka



I'm so glad you asked. In fact I do have a solution that will solve both the healthcare problem and the social security ponzi scheme problem. It's based on free markets and works something like this.

1) Replace the social security scam with a medical savings plan. Recall that medical savings insurance only insures catastrophic illness. Day to day medical needs are paid for out of the savings plan.

2) Eliminate the FDA and replace it with a medical database that tracks the actual statistical cure rate of various proposed drug and alternative medicine therapies. Whatever works the best should be at the fingertips of every doctor plugged into the system. The system would be paid for by a small fee levied upon a visit to your doctor. Thus the government is no longer responsible for monitoring fraud, you are! Take freakin responsibility and don't be a drone.

3) Limit medical malpractice to actual damage done to reduce money flowing to the lawyers instead of to the doctors.

4) Reduce the onerous burden of bringing new techniques and medicines to market. Field trials can be directly entered into the med. practices database.

5) Eliminate the AMA and the drug companies monopoly on medical practice. If it works and is proven scientifically and statistically, it's valid.

There are a few more things that need to be done on the soc. security side of the issue but the effect of this sort of thing would be very positive. Cost competition would return to medicine since the consumer pays out of his life savings. That my friends is what brings the price of consumer electronics and other services down.

Case in point , have you ever compared the costs of treating your pet vs treating you? The med.s and surgeries are much less costly and in many cases better informed. That's all the power of free markets. But most of the government educated youth have no idea about how those work. No one remembers that you could once work at a gas station and buy a home for your stay at home spouse and your children. We've sunk a long way. All that productivity has been sapped by government and taxation. We forget that government is overhead and not the focus of society.


[edit on 16-7-2009 by SevenThunders]

im gonna quit my job and be a bum and get healthcare, its my dang right darn it!!!

It's quite easy to see if you should support this bill or not. All you need to look at is if you are going to be getting the same health benefits as your senator. There is a fat chance at that . Everything I mean everything the government touches turns rotten, I wish they would just go away I don't need them to tell me how to live I do just fine without them.

This is also being discussed here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The following part of the bill is disturbing:

Individuals who decline an offer of affordable coverage would pay 2.5 percent of their incomes as a penalty, up to the average cost of a health insurance plan.

Unbelievable!
This is such a huge government takoever, words can hardly describe it. This is just a plain old fashioned dictatorship!

This is mandatory forced health insurance bill which at $1.5 trillion is a country killer. Not only is it bad because it will make America a typical European type socialist country, it will bankrupt America.

We all know how wrong the government is on math figures. If they are saying $1.5 trillion now, that really means $3 trillion just to start.

Plus, since the government cannot run anything, we know that government controlled healthcare will create a disfunctional system which will ruin our medical superiority. Sad, just sad.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Really? It is absurb to you that under the Obama healthcare the STATE, and not doctors, will decide if patients can have certain treatments, and operations onlly if they are cost effective, and if there is no doubt the treatment or operation will work?

Is it absurb that doctors who don't follow the new policies by the STATE will be fined? Even if the doctors think a treatment, or operation can help a patient, but the STATE decides is too expensive, or the treatment, or operation might not work so it is better if this is not done?

Is it absurb to not want to pay a hefty sum of $1,000 U.S. dollars if we do not have, or even can't pay for healthcare insurance?

I don't really see your point here. The health insurance companies already do all of that. Does it really matter whether it is Big Brother or Big Pharma/Big Medical? You do realize that the insurance companies employ people just to find loopholes in the coverage, just so they can deny peoples claims? How is that any different? Sounds like: 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' to me. People supposedly have all these horror stories they 'heard' about, but never seem to have any evidence of, when it comes to nationalized health care. There seem to be alot of assumptions. Doesn't seem to be too many people that actually know what will happen, and what it will be like. Sounds alot like urban legends to me. I'd like to see some proof of all these claims folks keep making about 'how it's going to be'.

Chrono

I don't see the reason for any debate due to the fact that like it our not you are going to get it and the working people of this country are going to pay for it just like we always do, while the blood suckers get all they want. Thanks Hope and Change!