Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Ladyinwaiting…..May I just tell you that you have a very nice energy.
I will be adding you to my friends list. “The Little Soul and the Sun”
does pretty much sum up my opinions but I will elaborate a bit.

I definitely believe in reincarnation but beyond that I believe that I exist simultaneously
in many different incarnations. I also believe my being is eternal and not confined to this planet/time and space.

Earlier in my search for what forgiveness was, I came to same conclusion as an earlier poster, that forgiveness was about me and what I feel not about others. However now like another earlier poster stated, I don’t feel there is anything to forgive.

A belief system I am currently following, has a story of how many millions maybe billions (I don’t recall and people probably won’t buy it anyway, so just pretend) a group decided to make this a polarity game, The Victim/Victimizer Blame Game, they would switch off. So now it is really about attempting not to play that game. I am never a victim and try not to be a victimizer. Most people IMO just don’t want to take full responsibility for their lives and their soul/consciousness….I do take full responsibility, with and through my connection to Source.

So say something really bad happens, I cannot blame anyone or anything outside of myself. Not always easy, as old habits of blame are hard to break, but very empowering to me anyway.

reply to post by cindymars


cindymars, thank you so much for your kind words. This is special to me, coming from you.

I like the idea of "switching things off". I have several thoughts and feelings I am able to switch off, because they are just too bothersome, or too troublesome. Or mainly because now I am trying so hard to stay focused on the positives in my life, and these old haunts just "bring me down". lol

You said that you cannot blame anyone for anything outside yourself. I think the justification is in the "oneness", if I am reading you correctly.
But does that not place an enormous amount of guilt on yourself, if you experience all this wrongness and bring it in to yourself?

Do you think Justice is indicated for the vile, as in cases such as a Ted Bundy, or a bin laden? Bundy, for example, was incarcerated and put to death as that seemed the best way to protect the innocent, as he was a very scary, scary man.

Okay--here. Have you forgiven the attackers of 911? Just curious. This is over the net and I know you can't see that this is a genuine question out of curiosity, but it is. I wonder how your philosophy/beliefs compel you to believe/feel with this type heinous act. ?

Hi .. i have struggled with the issue of forgiveness in the past due to growing up with alcoholic parents, my father being murdered and then having the illness myself and almost dying from the demon drink. I was in a really dark place four years ago. I was depressed and tried to kill myself. The difference between then and now .. is forgiveness!!
Four years ago I asked the universe and source to help me and it did.. I have not touched a drink since. It took a while to get my life back together.. As I was still in pain and resentful, angry and bitter about my dads death. I never thought I would get through it. I got pulled onto the spiritual path by a higher power and started reading lots of spiritual books and learning that I had to let go of the past. The only way to do this was to forgive ALL.... myself, my dad, my past, the man who comitted the murder and life! I came to the conclusion forgiveness is not saying.. what you did was right.. it is letting go and allowing yourself the right to detach from it.. which can only be done without judgement.. through forgiveness. that doesnt have to be done literally to the person.. it can be said to the wind and the universe. It is saying 'i let go of this'. I also loved my dad dearly and know he is happy that I have let go and am living my life the way I am now. He would want me to forgive.
I also agree with others ... I realised when I looked outside the box.. there is really nothing to forgive!! Life is balance, duality, experience, karma.. no right and wrong.. just spirit experiencing life in the level of consciousness that they are at.. the full experience. Karma balances everything out anyway.
I hope this helps anyone...

love and light

reply to post by pantherstar


The murder of a loved one is perhaps one of the most profoundly difficult examples of offenses introduced here. An offense that could take some people a lifetime to come to terms with.

You've had your share of "demons", but you have run them away with your own will. I don't know you, and I know I don't have the right, but I feel proud of you. This is a huge accomplishment, to have overcome so many hurts.

It becomes clear in this thread, so many other's issues here are related to parental deeds, and childhood abuses. So many. Almost all.

You said: "letting go and allowing yourself the right to detach from it".

Beautifully stated.

As another poster pointed out, it is giving oneself "permission", to either forgive or not forgive, and move on.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

[edit on 7/19/0909 by ladyinwaiting]

Its hard to discus feelings when feelings are very personal to each and every one of us. Not even the feeling of pain or suffering can be associated with what other people might feel.

The only thing these people have in common is that abuse and afflicting pain onto others is wrong. And the important thing is to let them know that it is wrong.

To demand forgiveness is not something others can demand. Forgiveness is a very personal feeling or reason only justified by the victims choice. We might see it odd that some choose to forgive where others would not. But then again non of us feel the same things or shear the same thoughts.

By trying to understand what they feel and by trying to support what they feel is the right way to help them move on. Feeling sorry for them is just the first step of understanding what they might be going through.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

Forgiveness is not as easy and as simple as it might appear.

And what is it, really? how do you know when you have forgiven someone? You invite them over to dinner? You say you have? You pretend as though you have?

And if you pretend, then doesn't that make it harder?

If someone is truly, truly, sorry, then it makes it easier.

If someone steps on your toe in line at the grocery.

But what about the big issues? Murder. Rape. Genocide.

What if you say you do forgive to please other people, but in your private heart, you don't.

Then what?

Do you find it easy to forgive?

ladyinwaiting, you've done a wonderful job of bringing a complicated subject to everyone's attention! I appreciate it. Where do I stand on this issue? It makes me think very deeply.

How can I be forgiven if I do not forgive others?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You see, I view us all on this planet as people who have the ability to harness two very powerful forces. One force has the ability of producing immediate results and will have implications to the third and fourth generations. The other force has the ability of producing not so immediate results, but has implications to infinity. I am speaking of good and evil here.

How could I eliminate the evil from infecting the third and fourth generations? Forgiveness. Understanding. Patient but steady exhortation. If I hold a grudge, it will devour me and that one particular force (evil) will have its way to the third and fourth generation without me even noticing. I will be too wrapped up in the wrongs that have been done to me and mine. It will infect everything unchecked.

How could I forgive myself for the things I have done? Confess what I have done and let God have dominion over my life. I have found that, left to my own devices, I am not a very nice person. I realize that in order for me to truly harness the good force, I need to let go. Let go of my pride that tells me I am right and that I need no forgiveness. Let go of the hatred that would love to run rampant. Let go of the anger that would have me carry out the most wicked actions. Let go of the petty things that would keep me awake at night.

To be free enough to realize we are all just humans harnessing two very powerful forces that we know not much about.


Edited to add that God will not intervene unless we ask Him.


[edit on 19-7-2009 by jackflap]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by cindymars

 

cindymars, thank you so much for your kind words. This is special to me, coming from you.

I like the idea of "switching things off". I have several thoughts and feelings I am able to switch off, because they are just too bothersome, or too troublesome. Or mainly because now I am trying so hard to stay focused on the positives in my life, and these old haunts just "bring me down". lol

You said that you cannot blame anyone for anything outside yourself. I think the justification is in the "oneness", if I am reading you correctly.
But does that not place an enormous amount of guilt on yourself, if you experience all this wrongness and bring it in to yourself?

Do you think Justice is indicated for the vile, as in cases such as a Ted Bundy, or a bin laden? Bundy, for example, was incarcerated and put to death as that seemed the best way to protect the innocent, as he was a very scary, scary man.

Okay--here. Have you forgiven the attackers of 911? Just curious. This is over the net and I know you can't see that this is a genuine question out of curiosity, but it is. I wonder how your philosophy/beliefs compel you to believe/feel with this type heinous act. ?

Why should I feel guilty if I made these choices from a place of Oneness prior to coming into my body for this incarnation? So no, I don't feel guilty.
Guilt is a wastfull emotion, either change our perseption or the behavior, no guilt.

I am not opposed to justice from this concept, it is still a human egoic need to blame. I believe these contracts were made prior to incarnation and involve karma.

911 IMO was perpetuated by TPTB and not some "So called" terrorist, so nothing for me to forgive.

Do I wish that we all lived for and in awareness of the ALL-ONESS yes but we don't.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Jurisprudence is for the sake of mankind's state of mind, it has little to do with forgiveness or condemnation... though in these latter years, it errs more and more towards the mercilessness.

Justice is merely another word for fulfilling a need for recompense.

Terrible things happen... we are all either guilty of such things, or have had such things done unto us. Neither makes either type any less human.

If you seek justice, you seek it for perceived slights and harms... which are only capable if you or the victim internalizes the suffering.

Appealing to the nord Skuld; I myself feel pain, and I myself at times want justice done upon an individual... but it is largely and almost exclusively because I feel a wrong has been committed.

When reflected in a spiritual state of mind, right and wrong are merely what we place on the actions of human beings. When viewed from the perspective of a stone, everything simply is... without qualifiers or definitions.

Jai Guru Deva Om (Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary).

reply to post by TheColdDragon


Thank you so much for your interesting reply. Human Beings are riddled with many complexities of emotion. The question then becomes, how do we manage those emotions?

Does litigation really help to lessen the pain? I've met many people who believe it does, particularly when the one who has inflicted the pain is a non-family member. Moreso if it's a complete stranger. When it's a family member-such as a parent-the scope for forgiveness and the need for recompense changes significantly.

What is often seen in a grown adult is the attitude "I deserved it" and hostililties are turned on themselves.

There is no one to forgive since all comes from God. A person only has themselves to work on, then they will realize that it is up to themselves to bring the world to a state of merit. Since God is good, your outlook should be good as well, and if it isn't, then who is to blame? The person.

Thank you for your response, and there are many people who have posted here who share your philosophy. But, do you think that in order to keep our society out of chaos, we must have some type of ordained punishment and protection?

It seems we are all the stuff of good and bad. However this is perceived by the separation from the original source.
We come from the light yet therein the shadows can also envelope the self and muddy the waters.
The person you are is determined by the side you act on.
This guides us through forgiveness.
Can remorse if true be divine.
A true divine remorse for a cruel intended act upon another.
If a true divine remorse is seen to be evident then forgiveness can evolve and dissolve karma.
A sense of false remorse will never be enough.

Originally posted by headlightone

We come from the light yet therein the shadows can also envelope the self and muddy the waters.

Yes. Thank you for including this aspect.

reply to post by cindymars


re: The Little Soul and the Sun

Thank-You

Saved, printed, and posted on the back of my front door so I will remember to read it everyday before going out.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Litigation may make a person feel better, but they have dehumanized another individual and spread misery nurtured from their own suffering. Is it better to punish in retaliation than it is to turn the other cheek?

On the one hand, retaliating and seeing justice done upon a person may make the aggrieved person feel that jurisprudence was served, but I scarcely think it actually makes them feel better. If anything, I would imagine it imparts an empty feeling... not fulfilled, as much as expectations always exceed reality.

On the other, putting more pain into the world is only increasing the misery of the world in general, for where does it end when you ask for an eye for the eye you lost? Then everyone is pointing fingers, demanding their due and putting on for a pity party or condolences from the many.

I have always been of the opinion that hatred in and of itself is a vile poison, a disease which spreads and infects and perpetuates itself grievously from one person to the next, dragging the lot of us down to a watery death in the Lethe...

I've hesitated to post this story, but I think it's relevant to the discussion.

In my earlier post I said I was happy for someone who wronged me to eventually pick on someone more able to take them on. What I didn't take into account is the damage they could do in the meantime.

Prior to moving out of the city I spent some time staying at a friend's apartment. I managed to fall foul of a neighbour - a silly argument over our dogs. The friend I was staying with warned that neighbour to stay away from me. Just that, but the neighbour took things to another level.

He reported my friend saying that he'd threatened to 'cut him up' (lies). He accused my friend of stealing his dog, even though other people had witnessed the dog running away. To cap it all he sent a 'heavy' to our front door. This guy was as high as a kite and threatened to bomb us, chop up my dog and put a voodoo curse on us.

I went and talked to the neighbour and did my best to straighten things out. As I spoke to him I became aware that he really wasn't 'the full ticket'. I'm not just saying that, I could see him spinning a story to explain all his lies as if to convince himself as well as me.

Anyway, this guy had two beautiful dogs and I wouldn't have wanted to see them suffer, so I dropped it. We all managed to get back on friendly terms and there was no more trouble. I have to say these events spurred me on to get out to the country as fast as I could.

A couple of weeks ago, my friend told me what this neighbour had got up to since I left.

Apparently he'd befriended a woman with the view to swapping flats with her. She had a ground floor flat with two bedrooms and he wanted to live there. She refused. So he reported her for some behaviour he'd observed while getting to know her. As a result she lost her home. That woman was 'vulnerable'. She had to attend the local hospital to get her medication. She was in no position to fight her case.

Needless to say, he didn't get her flat. He hadn't taken into account that as a single man with two dogs he wouldn't be given priority over a family.

I feel sick about that - I had the opportunity to do something about this evil git and yet I did nothing.

Anyway, he now has fallen foul of someone bigger and nastier. He managed to get the local drug dealer (also a neighbour) into trouble resulting in the dealer being told to get rid of his dogs.

I suppose something will now be done about him - which doesn't worry me. But I still worry about his dogs. My friend has tried to persuade the dealer to take them into account before he retaliates too harshly. But why should he care, when he has had to give up dogs of his own?

I think this is an example of 'societal forgiveness'. But it solved nothing. I 'forgave' this person on one level because I didn't want to keep a cycle going between us. But he just moved on to other people and caused trouble for them.

And because he's just going round 'reporting' people for things most of us would turn a blind eye to, he's managed to look as if he's got the 'moral high ground'. And, as I said, he's not afraid to lie or embellish his stories.



[edit on 28-7-2009 by berenike]

reply to post by jackflap


One of the things I love most about ATS is how much I continue to learn from and about my fellow members. I learned a good lesson here, Jackflap. There is an inner wisdom here. Hatred is toxic. It is.
Thank you for posting.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Thankyou for your reply. I still think that I had help from source. I couldnt do it on my own. Forgiveness may or may not be divine. I can only talk for myself... I think to forgive the act that destroyed my family and killed my father.. I needed divine intervention. I was an unbeliever on my knees asking for help and I got that help from that second. It was as if it was a divine act that helped me to forgive, let go and get on with my life.

thankyou again ladyinwaiting... you are a special soul
love and light

reply to post by berenike


berenike...I have some commonalities with you here..the only time I have ever "had words" with my neighbors has been over dogs. lol.

But in your situation, you just cannot control what other people do, nor do you have a cystal ball to read into the future about it. This guy you spoke of is on a poor path. He has his own lessons to learn. Let's hope he does.

reply to post by TheColdDragon


But if you were dehumanized by the said individual you are "bringing to justice"? I do believe innocents have to be protected, and sometimes the only way to do that is to get them off the streets. I wish I did have more confidence in prison rehabilitation, and would like it to be more of just that. Although I think it may only be slightly better than it used to be it is still mostly punitive. But sometimes people for what ever reasons are just not suited to live among us. I know that sounds harsh, but here I am thinking of the Jeffrey Daumer's and the Ted Bundy's. We have to protect ourselves. And sometimes knowing that the person who harmed you is having to recognize it, and is given no choice but to be punished for it, is freeing to the victim, and actually in most cases they DO feel better.
imho.