Georgia freemasons at loggerheads over admission of black man to lodge

reply to post by getreadyalready


I am pretty sure that since PH is now recognized by the Grand Lodge, they are no longer clandestine. I did a thread about a visitation that just happened and made the news. Are PH not recognized in FL?

reply to post by network dude


Nope, still not recognized in Florida. I heard they are also recognized in Texas.

I kind of wish we would recognize them, because the local PH chapters here have some very active members! They proudly display emblems and have get togethers. My lodge is starting to catch up to that, but the rest of the district is still pretty lame.

reply to post by network dude


It came from Robert Anton Wilson, if I remember correctly. It was a description of a Masonic Initiation. Neither the author or I make any claims as to accuracy or currency. They didn't put a noose around your neck and induce a near death experience either, I presume!

Who's to say you really were initiated? You were in the social club instead of the Lodge! _javascript:icon('')

I was born in Georgia, but my opinion stands; too many Georgians are bigots. It must be in the water...

Surely you didn't take me seriously, did you?

I don't take anyone who is exclusive along racial lines seriously either, unless they have a monopoly on business in the town where I live.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by network dude

 

Nope, still not recognized in Florida. I heard they are also recognized in Texas.

I kind of wish we would recognize them, because the local PH chapters here have some very active members! They proudly display emblems and have get togethers. My lodge is starting to catch up to that, but the rest of the district is still pretty lame.

I find this extremely strange. I always thought a freemason was a freemason no matter where he came from or the colour of his skin. .. As far as I'm concerned all masons are the same whether you believe in the conspiracies or not. The fact that you lot can't agree about the finer points of freemasonry is quite amusing. It seems to me that while the rest of humanity has put racial differences behind us the masons are lagging behind still struggling to come to terms with racial views of the 21st century.
Is it not the case that for freemasonry to survive in the next century it simply has to become more tolerent of other races, creeds, and religions. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


It has nothing to do with color of skin. There are black Free and Accepted Masons. Prince Hall, and International Masons did not go through the proper channels to get our charter. This all happened over 100 years ago, but it has not been corrected. Therefore, they are "clandestinely made Masons" and we are forbidden from sitting in a lodge with them.

I do agree that it is silly, and I hope it is corrected at some point, as there are some good men in the Prince Hall.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

It has nothing to do with color of skin. There are black Free and Accepted Masons. Prince Hall, and International Masons did not go through the proper channels to get our charter. This all happened over 100 years ago, but it has not been corrected. Therefore, they are "clandestinely made Masons" and we are forbidden from sitting in a lodge with them.

I do agree that it is silly, and I hope it is corrected at some point, as there are some good men in the Prince Hall.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by getreadyalready]

Could I be forgiven for thinking that since this segregation happened, as you say, over a hundred years ago there has been more than enough time for the freemasons to correct the wrongs of the past and to bring equality to the brotherhod.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.




I find this extremely strange. I always thought a freemason was a freemason no matter where he came from or the colour of his skin.

There is a basic issue of recognition that I hope to be able to clearly explain, and this transcends the PH issue of this thread.

I am a member of a Lodge, chartered by the Grand Lodge of NC, AF&AM. I can only recognize as a 'regular' Mason one who is in good standing, not suspended or expelled, of a Lodge that is chartered by a Grand Lodge recognized by the GL of NC, AF&AM.

Generally speaking, a Grand Lodge is the sole Masonic authority within its geographic borders. This point does touch upon the PH issue. To use NC as an example, once mutual recognition was passed by both Grand Lodges, a treaty/compact was signed. This compact stated that the territory is shared, with each Grand Lodge maintaining authority over its constituent Lodges and appendant bodies. To further explain this, if the Grand Lodge of SC were to charter a Lodge in Fayetteville, NC, not only would that Lodge be irregular, as it is chartered by a foreign, albeit recognized, Grand Lodge within the territory of the GL of NC, this would likely lead to a severing of ties. At that point, I would not be able to sit in a Lodge in SC, neither could Mason from SC sit in my Lodge. In fact, he would not be 'a Mason', so far as I am concerned, so long as recognition is withheld or suspended.

"A Mason" is not simply such because he has a card in his pocket, or because he calls himself such, even if he knows the modes of recognition. "A Mason" is one initiated, passed and raised in a regular Lodge, 'Regular' being one that is recognized by an individual's Grand Lodge. Say that Joe Smedlap is a member of Hiram Lodge #1, Grand Lodge of Jim-jam (a small, fictional island group in the South Pacific). Let's say that the GL of JJ has been recognized by the GL of VA, but not by the GL of NC. He could visit in a Lodge in VA. He would not be able to sit in a Lodge in NC. He would not be "A Mason" in NC. He would not be considered 'regular', as his GL has not been recognized. However, his GL could petition for recognition (as the GL of NC could petition the GL of JJ for recognition as well). Through that process, the petitioning GL would be examined, to make sure that it conforms to the 'Ancient Landmarks'. For example, if a GL initiated atheists, women, or those not of sound mind, recognition would not be forthcoming.

I am sure that I missed several points, or that there may be unclear points. Please feel free to ask for clarification. I, or one of my more learned Brethren will be happy to answer, I am sure.

reply to post by Viking04


Without wishing to be rude are you kidding me with this? Whats with all the initials? I, as a Brit, have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.. .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


GL= Grand Lodge
NC= North Carolina
VA= Virginia
JJ= Jim-Jam (a fictional nation, for the purposes of the explanation)

I hope that clears things up for you a bit.

edit to add
PH= Prince Hall, but as you have been on this thread, I expect that you are familiar with this one by now.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Viking04]

reply to post by getreadyalready


Ok, I appologize, utterly disgusted was a bit harsh(after reading your response and explanation of your views, I still woudl stand by it without the explanation). I don't think we have to be racsist or that everyone is. I am sometimes intolerant of come cultural practices of some races. but I am not racists towards the actual people.

reply to post by stereovoyaged


Without the follow-up explanation I can see your point. Many people could post what I posted, but they would mean what was said without any equivocation or "grey" area.

I often come off sounding jaded or even racist, because I am very comfortable discussing these issues even in mixed company, and I am fortunate enough to have some friends of other races that are also comfortable in making their "true" opinions known to me. It is enlightening to have such discussions, even when some feathers are temporarily ruffled!

-*-*-*-*-*-
Just some personal views on Political Correctness and Racism from my experience:

I have some unique views on Political Correctness.

*I was in an explosion about 10 years ago, and I have some pretty serious burn scars (not on face luckily). I limped for a long time. I wore burn compression garments for several years, and I got the sideways glances, pity, and curious kids sometimes. Other times I got direct questions or comments. I appreciated the directness a lot more, and my understanding of other people in my situation grew, as did the way I approach anyone with a disability!

*I grew up in an all white town, and never had any exposure to other races or cultures until I was fully grown. Since then, I have immersed myself in some life-changing situations. I have been involved in things that most white people would not have access to, or would be afraid to ask. I have been to "Q-dog" hazings, parties, and ceremonies. I have frequented "after-hours" Reggae clubs where I was the only one of my kind. I have made some excellent friends and accompanied them to family gatherings, reunions, and events. I have dated black girls, and routinely gone into neighborhoods where I was not welcome, especially with a beautiful black girl! I have seen drive-by shootings, I have been shot at, and had friends who were shot. I have seen large scale fights break out that were racially divided. I have been surprised to find myself backed up by black guys I barely knew, and just as surprised to find some of my lifelong white friends bail out on me during trouble.

I have truly experienced racism from as many sides as a white person can. In my opinion, it is impossible to wipe out racism, because there are real differences, and as long as we refuse to recognize the differences, and be honest in our opinions, and direct in our speech, it will continue to be an issue. Being direct and honest will sometimes draw heated confrontations, and it is a scary prospect. Therefore, the progress is 2 steps forward and 1 to 3 steps back!

[edit on 10-8-2009 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

It has nothing to do with color of skin. There are black Free and Accepted Masons. Prince Hall, and International Masons did not go through the proper channels to get our charter. This all happened over 100 years ago, but it has not been corrected. Therefore, they are "clandestinely made Masons" and we are forbidden from sitting in a lodge with them.

I do agree that it is silly, and I hope it is corrected at some point, as there are some good men in the Prince Hall.

[edit on 7-8-2009 by getreadyalready]

Could I be forgiven for thinking that since this segregation happened, as you say, over a hundred years ago there has been more than enough time for the freemasons to correct the wrongs of the past and to bring equality to the brotherhod.

Yeah you would be correct but as secret societies go, things move slower.

I mean think about all the confusion between AMORC and TRCF? If it were not for the charter from FUDOSI that Spencer Lewis had, then there would still be issues.




[edit on 10-8-2009 by HunkaHunka]

reply to post by getreadyalready


Your life experiences are some that I wish all people went through. I grew in an all white town, we had a Fillipino teacher that everyone called black, lol. I remember being at a beach party and someone dropped the N bomb and turned to her daughter and said "sorry". And she was like "Huh?? I'm not black, I'm Asian". Just goes to show ignorance. But now where i live is still mostly white but there are a lot and still growing numbers of all races. And I am proud to say that it is not a racially devided city, province or country.

I have american friends, black american friends and all they talk about is how when they visit here, they feel safe, home and not judged. My good friend from FL who is black, comes up on work trips where I work and he says eventually he will move here because he walks the street as a man, not a black man. So I assure you, racsim doesnt' have to exists, it doens't rule here and it never will. American culture is one of racism, ecomomic and racial devide and the media loves to play it up. You wanna live the good life?? Take yourself out of racially charged situations, enjoy life as a person, not a race.

why would anyone want to join an organisation which does not want them as members for crying out loud

Originally posted by blueorder
why would anyone want to join an organisation which does not want them as members for crying out loud

Yes, you're right. I agree with you but what you're describing is at best, descrimination, and at worst, full blown racism.
The masons seem to think that because both sides are happy with the arrangement then it's perfectly okay. But I can't help thinking that one lodge that welcomes all those who want to be part of the fraternity no matter what colour their skin is, would be a better alternative.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Yes, you're right. I agree with you but what you're describing is at best, descrimination, and at worst, full blown racism.
The masons seem to think that because both sides are happy with the arrangement then it's perfectly okay. But I can't help thinking that one lodge that welcomes all those who want to be part of the fraternity no matter what colour their skin is, would be a better alternative.

never understood the mentality, like my gurning because some black power group didn't want me to join

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


True story from past few months. (My lodge meeting was last night.) We have 7 black members in our district and they all come from one lodge. I am the Worshipful Master of my Lodge. 3 months ago, 2 black FAAM and 1 Hispanic wanted to visit my lodge. I went to every member present and asked if there were any objections. There was grumbling, but no formal objection.

When Lodge started 1 black guy and the Hispanic guy left. They never truly wanted to enter, they just wanted to test the waters and stir the pot a little. The one who did enter is a personal acquaintance of mine, and he stayed for the entire meeting. He was warmly welcomed, and we had a good meeting!

Last month, the same 3 came to our lodge. Again, they were welcomed to the lodge, but they were asked to wait outside while we voted on reinstatement for one of our Past Master's and we discussed some sensitive financial information. They were NOT turned away, but we do not allow "visiting" Mason's inside during voting or business where private information is shared.

All 3 left of their own accord and did not want to wait. They went back to their lodge and complained that they were mistreated! My personal acquaintance even went so far as to stand up in lodge, talk about how uncomfortable he was on both occasions, and then co-author a letter with his lodge's Master to all their members about the incidents!

Obviously our friendship is over, and several people (mostly white) from that lodge are no longer welcome at my lodge. It is not a racial divide, it is an "HONESTY" divide, and a procedural divide, and a Ethics divide. We have now come to find out that this particular guy was removed from the International Masons after one degree. He lied on his original application. He lied about membership in the Omega Psi Phi (Q-dog) fraternity. He has several complaints and lawsuits with previous landlords that are racially based, and he is an overall trouble maker and low-quality individual and liar!! We are contemplating Masonic Charges!

The Masonic fraternity seeks people of the highest caliber regardless of race. We also seek harmony within the fraternity. I have stated before, that I am encouraging a couple of my black friends to petition my lodge, but we seem to facing the same problem as conservatives right now! If we withhold membership, even with good cause, it is far too easy to cry racism! In 99% of the cases, racism is not the problem. Any member can black ball for any reason.

The last two black balls our lodge had that caused a stir, turned out to be very appropriate! Both individuals were white and highly recommended, but certain members did not like their professions, or their appearance, and it turned out that one got arrested shortly after applying, and the other one moved out of the state suddenly!

reply to post by getreadyalready


You say that three came to your lodge but left because you were holding a private meeting. . . Then, can I ask why these three people weren't notified that they wouldn't be seen as the meeting you describe was being held?
You can't blame them for thinking they are receiving the cold shoulder due to racism can you? Maybe the racist views of someone within your lodge who was supposed to notify them of this couldn't be bothered because he didn't like the colour of their skin?
At worst it's evidence of racism- at best it's evidence of the lodges inability to keep its members and visitors involved in the day to day running of your lodge. . .
I find myself in a strange predicament. I feel that the masonic lodge is a racist institution yet I don't think that most of the freemasons see it that way because they see it as masonic heritage! Doesn't make it right or decent but it does make it understandable.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


No, maybe you misunderstood the story.

They had all visited previously and were accepted without incident. They visited a second time, and were again accepted, but asked to wait outside while we conducted some private business. This is standard practice for any visitor. It would have been exactly the same for any visitor, regardless of race. It would have only take a couple of minutes, and since they are Masons, they are aware of the protocol! The same would happen to me if I visited another lodge, and they had voting to do.

There would have been no way to give them advance notice, as we didn't know they were coming, and we don't necessarily know everything on the agenda ahead of time.

The fact is, they showed up once, and were disappointed at their warm reception! So they did not even bother to stay that night. The showed up again, and took a routine practice and turned it in to what they were looking for! Now they have brought down a lot of trouble on themselves and their lodge, and they are a sorry representation of the fraternity!

reply to post by getreadyalready


Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought they were non masons visiting the lodge with an intent on joining.

Still, when alls said and done, the stigma of racism refuses to leave the lodge. There's still this problem with Prince Hall and the normal lodges. . . Why not just unite them and be done with it. It would cut down the administration costs and would remove pricey overheads.
It seems to me that the black guys like their lodge and the whites like theirs, they like being kept apart, seperated because of the colour of their skin, yet they don't see it as racism. To us outsiders its clearly racism (on both sides) but to you masons it's heritage. It's a very strange situation because usually when you mention racism someone is being lorded over and repressed by someone else of a different colour or race. In the case of masonry its more like a friendly mutual mistrust of one another.