Georgia freemasons at loggerheads over admission of black man to lodge

Originally posted by network dude
I don't agree with racism and I especially don't think it has a place in masonry as men are supposed to be judged on their internal qualities and not their external. To me that would mean that if the guy was purple, but had some good ideas, he would be worth listening to.

So with that being said, wouldn't someone who is racist not be a canidate to be a mason. If racsim exists and mason are such quality creatures, shouldn't the closed minded racists be the last people who would be allowed to be accepted??

[edit on 6-8-2009 by stereovoyaged]

reply to post by stereovoyaged


the questions that are asked of a man before he becomes a mason have nothing to do with race. It is safe to assume that every one of us are racist to an extent. Meaning that we carry some pre-conceived notion of a general group based on previous information. Some are just more blatant about it, and some introduce hate into what was once confusion. I know of some masons who are prejudice in the old south ways. No question about what they think of a black man. I disagree with the idea that an entire race of people can be judged on appearance alone. But where do you draw the line? Racism/prejudice is and has been the world biggest problem for as long as history has tracked. From religious intolerance to the KKK. I wish I had the answer to that problem.

reply to post by network dude


Are there any certain moral standards you are required to uphold as a mason? If so, if you KNOW of people who are masons and not upholding these standards, is there anything to be done about it?

reply to post by stereovoyaged


being a mason you have to be a good member of your community. Basically be a good person. I hate to be that vague, but I don't know how else to put it. If a mason is suspected of wrong doing, he can and should be brought up on masonic charges which would end up with an investigation and a masonic trial. If found guilty, said mason would have a penalty delivered. It could be an expulsion or just a suspension. masonic ideals should be take seriously. If they are not, then the whole organization could loose credibility.

reply to post by network dude


Ok, so if you know of people who are racist, that is wrong and makes you not a good person, ergo, shouldn't you bring it to attention that this person is this way so they could be "brought to justice" whithin your organization? And I know your gonna say that we are all racist in some way, but I am guessing what your discribing as "old south" racism is hating black people??

reply to post by stereovoyaged


You make some good points, and they are brought up in lodge from time to time, but the problem is what constitutes a racist?

Someone is not necessarily a bad person just because they don't want to spend time around other races. A person that blatantly discriminated in their business or housing practices, or broke any laws, or spouted hate speech would certainly never get in. But someone that simply prefers the company of their own kind and functions normally in an integrated society would probably get through. The line is somewhere in between.

We could never bring somebody up on charges for having a personal opinion about something, but if they evicted a tenant or denied a promotion based on race then they have broken Masonic law and U.S. law!

So what is a racist to you?

I have my ghetto pass, I can make racist jokes in mixed company, I can point out the stereotypes and accuse my friends of being a typical (insert race), I can eat in the worst parts of town and have a great experience, but I wouldn't want my mother dating a black man. My best friend is married to a black woman and he is my Senior Deacon in the Masonic Lodge! She has been warmly received at all open events! But he knows that I would not want that for my own daughter or mother, and in a lot of cases neither would he! I have been the only white person in a night club, family reunion, and BBQ, but I would not think someone was a racist if they felt uncomfortable in the same situation.

What do you think?

reply to post by stereovoyaged


From where I sit, the issue of racism is perceived differently in different parts of the world. If you are in a bar in backwoods North Carolina and there is a rebel flag hanging on the pole outside, I don't think anybody inside would be upset if a black joke was told. But by the same token if that same joke was told in Fayetteville NC around the military base, I think you would be a bit worried about getting out alive. Again, it doesn't make it right, it just is what it is. I have hope for the next generation to make great strides in this department. Just remember, there are stupid people all over the world.

Since one of the Masonic initiations involves being told they will be shown God, then they are handed a mirror.
I guess they couldn't stand the idea that this guy wouldn't see a white guy in the Mirror!

Ever since the Georgians kicked the Cherokee Indians out, they have been mostly a bunch of bigots.

Maybe a reincarnation of Sherman will come and burn down Atlanta again!

reply to post by getreadyalready


I think that if you don't want your mother dating a black man, then you are a racist! Simple as that. You've got classic "i know 2 or 3 black guys, thats enough" syndrome. That makes you a bad person, attitudes like that are whats wrong with the world, who care what color a person your mom dates as long as they are good to her and she is happy. I was with you until you said that, but after reading that, I am utterly disgusted that you share the same forum as me.

reply to post by UMayBRite!


please share with me what degree that is. I have only been through 32 of them so it must be one of those mysterious "higher degrees"

edit to add: not that I want to add any credibility to your post as it is completely wrong, but since Jesus came from the middle east, and everyone over there is pretty far from white, I think it would be a safe assumption that Jesus Christ was dark skinned. And I doubt very seriously that he had blonde hair.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by network dude]

reply to post by network dude


I get what your saying, but isn't racism......racism? And if you see it, isnt' it your duty to report it? If not, your condoning it.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I think that if you don't want your mother dating a black man, then you are a racist! Simple as that. You've got classic "i know 2 or 3 black guys, thats enough" syndrome. That makes you a bad person, attitudes like that are whats wrong with the world, who care what color a person your mom dates as long as they are good to her and she is happy. I was with you until you said that, but after reading that, I am utterly disgusted that you share the same forum as me.

No, I don't have the classic syndrome of knowing 2 or 3 black guys. I have some very close and beloved friends, whom I trust explicitly, and I "know" a great many more than that.

Thank you for answering my question though. Many people are like you and would consider my stance racist. I don't, and that is the problem. We are probably all racist to a certain degree, but what constitutes using the label? Anybody can throw around the "racist" term. We don't have a clear definition of it.

I don't mind our opinions being different, although I think "utterly disgusted" is a bit strong!

You are correct that if my mother found a particularly good man, it would not matter what color his skin was. "Generally" speaking is what gets us into trouble. "In General" I feel she would encounter a lot more social issues by dating black men. There is no doubt that our cultures are different.

For the record, I think racists need to "hate" or "alienate" other races, or see less human value in those other races.

I don't fit that description by any stretch.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by network dude

 

I get what your saying, but isn't racism......racism? And if you see it, isnt' it your duty to report it? If not, your condoning it.

I wonder what the sentence would be for a mason to be accussed of outright racism? As far as racism within the freemasons is concerned the white masons seem to think it's okay because the black masons have their own lodges therefore there's no problem! I see it differently. I think the fact that the black freemasons are happy to be seperated from their white brethren shows clearly that it is not only the white masons who are racists. Both black and white are clearly guilty. . . People forget that racism works both ways.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

I wonder what the sentence would be for a mason to be accussed of outright racism? As far as racism within the freemasons is concerned the white masons seem to think it's okay because the black masons have their own lodges therefore there's no problem! I see it differently. I think the fact that the black freemasons are happy to be seperated from their white brethren shows clearly that it is not only the white masons who are racists. Both black and white are clearly guilty. . . People forget that racism works both ways.

But who are you or I to decide if these people we are talking about are upset with the way things are? That just reminds me of Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson running into a situation spilling racist crap everywhere. They look for a situation that "might" be racist and push it way over the edge. Shouldn't we find out if there really is a problem before we go on a crusade to fix it?

There are lodges in cities that aren't racist to the degree that they are in some other areas. So it would seem that racism isn't a masonic problem, but a people problem, or an environmental problem.

reply to post by network dude

You have me wrong dude. What I'm saying is that there clearly is a race issue within masonry. Anytime you start segregating people because of their colour then you have, by definition, a race problem. It really doesn't matter if both sides are happy with the arrangement! We outside the brotherhood can see it for what it is it is only the masons themselves who don't recognise it because to you and your fellow members it literally is no problem. . . For you it's just part of what makes the fraternity what it is.
It would only take one man to stand up and complain about being limited to a Prince Hall lodge because of his colour and then, I think, masons would have to deal with this issue but until someone raises the question it simply Isn't a problem and therefore will go unchallenged.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I do see it as a problem, but probably not in the way you are thinking. I think Prince Hall masons are very proud of their heritage and probably have no desire to close up shop and all join our lodges. But in my area there is still a bit of the old south racism. It will be a while before the lodges in my area welcome visitors from the Prince Hall lodges over for a degree. I just think it's a shame since so much could be learned from this. On both sides. I kind of feel like a lone gunner in my lodge.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

I do see it as a problem, but probably not in the way you are thinking. I think Prince Hall masons are very proud of their heritage and probably have no desire to close up shop and all join our lodges. But in my area there is still a bit of the old south racism. It will be a while before the lodges in my area welcome visitors from the Prince Hall lodges over for a degree. I just think it's a shame since so much could be learned from this. On both sides. I kind of feel like a lone gunner in my lodge.

Good for you. At least you recognise the problem even if both sides involved really don't see it as a problem and don't feel the need to change- at least not yet.
Can I ask you this, just say for instance you happened to be invited into a Prince Hall lodge for a meeting to aid others in obtaining their degrees, would the scenario play out the same as when you did your degrees? If there are changes, no matter how subtle, why do you feel they changed?
I ask because I wonder at what point if a lodge kept changing the rituals to suite their own circumstances, etc, would it cease to be a masonic lodge and become something else entirely. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I think we passed that point years ago! The rituals have been changed, and marginalized so much, that the true meaning is almost completely lost!

The "geometry" of the degree work is meant to "illustrate that which cannot be taught" but I have never met a Mason that understood it!! Through my own research I have found a gread deal of the true meanings, and I can believe that if a degree were done properly, in a properly laid out lodge, that it would indeed hold some enlightenment, but it isn't happening in today's lodges!

Additionally,
I stated way earlier, the official position of the Grand Lodge of Florida is that no one can be denied entry based on race. Doing so will get your charter pulled!! The reasoning is political and economical. Hundreds of millions of dollars pass through Freemasonry tax free. If we violate EEO laws, then we cannot be a charitable or 501-C corporation, and we have to pay taxes on all that money. Therefore, we are not actually a "private" organization, and we cannot get caught discriminating in any way!!

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Can I ask you this, just say for instance you happened to be invited into a Prince Hall lodge for a meeting to aid others in obtaining their degrees, would the scenario play out the same as when you did your degrees? If there are changes, no matter how subtle, why do you feel they changed?
I ask because I wonder at what point if a lodge kept changing the rituals to suite their own circumstances, etc, would it cease to be a masonic lodge and become something else entirely. . .

I have not been to a Prince Hall lodge as of yet. I hope to go to one soon. I would also like to visit lodges in other states to see the differences. It would be a great leaning experience. The rituals are supposed to stay the same so the meaning is not lost, but I have only been a mason for 3 years now so I don't know what happened in the past. It's just nice to see things moving in a positive direction instead of the other way. It's a slow train, but it's movin.

reply to post by network dude


A Free and Accepted Mason cannot sit in lodge with a Prince Hall Mason or an International Mason without violating their obligation! Some Grand Lodges have recognized PHM, so I guess it is OK in those states, but here in Florida it is definitely NOT!