Debunking false claims about Jehovah's Witnesses. 1-14

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

 

only God is eternal

Right, but there is a difference between eternal and immortal. Adam was immortal but it was conditional immortality.

there is no conditional immortality. doesnt exist.

immortality means that you are exempt from death, keyword being ¨exempt¨. if you sin and thereby are sentenced to death, then your not exempt are you? (m-w.com)

so god is immortal. he can´t die. he is exempt from death.

eternal is just like immortality but it goes into the past too.

so god is eternal. he´s always existed and always will.

jesus was not immortal. we know this because he was not exempt from death. when satan tested him, jesus needed to be faithful. this suggests that if he wasnt, he would have been sentenced to death.

another thing that proves that jesus was not immortal is the fact that he did die. since immortals are exempt from death, they cannot die. jesus died, therefore he was not immortal.

the bible says that jesus, and others would be granted immortality. this means they are given exception from even the possibility of death.

there is NOTHING in the bible that says that adam was immortal, or that he had conditional immortality (which is a contradiction). but there was also nothing to suggest that he would have died.

what adam had was everlasting life. life that does not cease. however that life still need to be sustained by different things. adam needed to eat. he needed to breath. he even needed support spiritually.

when adam sinned, his spiritual support was cut off (part of the deal with independence from god). adams life was no longer everlasting because it wasnt supported, and he eventually died.

so in a way everlasting life is your ¨conditional immortality". except it has nothing to do with immortality because there is no exemption from death.

people who have everlasting life can die. immortal cannot even if they deserve it (they dont but you get what i mean).






[edit on 25-5-2009 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566

if you sin and thereby are sentenced to death, then your not exempt are you?

That sounds like a condition to me.

but there was also nothing to suggest that he would have died.

Sounds like immortality to me.

people who have everlasting life can die. immortal cannot even if they deserve it (they dont but you get what i mean).

Where does Satan fall into all this?


[edit on 25-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60

 

if you sin and thereby are sentenced to death, then your not exempt are you?

That sounds like a condition to me.

listen to the question again. i know im esl but i worded that the way it should be.

im suggesting that if you are sentenced to death, you are not exempt from death. if you are not exempt from death, you are not immortal.

but there was also nothing to suggest that he would have died.

Sounds like immortality to me.

then you dont know what immortality is.

immortality is the inability to die. no conditions.

adam lived until he sinned, then he died. adam was not immortal.

if adam was immortal, then he would have sinned and he would still be alive.

people who have everlasting life can die. immortal cannot even if they deserve it (they dont but you get what i mean).

Where does Satan fall into all this?

think about it. if satan was immortal, he would be indestructible. then rev 20:10 would be lying.

but he is destructible. so he isnt immortal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

everlasting life is not immortality.

everlasting life means that you never run out of energy. right now we do. after 80, 90 years we are spent and we die. everlasting life just continues and continues. but that doesnt mean that some external force cant kill you. that also doesnt mean that the energy that is keeping you going cant be cut from you.

a person with everlasting life is like a computer with a cord. cut the cord, the computer dies.

an immortal is like a computer with the power plant built in. no cord to cut.

they are impervious to outside action. they cannot be killed, starved, or destroyed

reply to post by miriam0566

if adam was immortal, then he would have sinned and he would still be alive.

It is a hypothetical question. I do not believe that any one has unconditional immortality.
Let me guess why you do. Because you do not want to admit that Jesus is eternal, so to make him not feel so bad, you allow him to have unconditional immortality. There is no such thing.
You say there is no such thing as conditional immortality.
Only Jesus can be immortal, according to your explanation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is a hypothetical question. I do not believe that any one has unconditional immortality.
Let me guess why you do. Because you do not want to admit that Jesus is eternal, so to make him not feel so bad, you allow him to have unconditional immortality. There is no such thing.
You say there is no such thing as conditional immortality.
Only Jesus can be immortal, according to your explanation.

lol. this is one of those deeper things you cant get to because your still spinning around.

if jesus is eternal, then why on 2 occasions is jesus´beginning described? he is called both the firstborn of creation, and the beginning of creation.

in contrast, show me 1 scripture that says jesus is eternal.

and yes, immortality is unconditional. which is an amazing thing.

god is giving people immortality because he trusts these people that much. imagine that for a moment, god trusting others.

1 tim 1:17 (GOD being eternal AND immortal)

2 tim 1:10 (Jesus giving immortality to others)

1 cor 15:53,54 (paul is talking about the resurrection of the 144,000)


immortality is an amazing gift. but it is never applied to the great crowd.

they receive only everlasting life (which is good enough for me)

reply to post by miriam0566

if jesus is eternal, then why on 2 occasions is jesus´beginning described? he is called both the firstborn of creation, and the beginning of creation.
in contrast, show me 1 scripture that says jesus is eternal.

You do not get me, apparently.
Jesus is the description of God. You have God, the indescribable, and the Son, the interpretation, on a practical level, of the Father. One is not a part of the other and one is not separate from the other. The two are the same thing. The seen and the unseen of the One. (of course what I just said was in human, physical terms, so none of it is true, it is just a metaphor)
"I am the First and the Last." "I am the Alpha and the Omega" how about 2?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jmdewey....please
Notice the title of the thread..
"Debunking false claims about Jehovah's Witnesses"
If you would like to comment or refute points #2, #3, #4, #5 and #7 from the openning posts, then please bring some textural backing to support your opinions. When you posted ""I am the First and the Last." "I am the Alpha and the Omega" how about 2? " could you please quote the book and verse, as the first is God refering to himelf in the OT, and the second is God also refering to himself in Revelation...neither of these have to do with the son...so
If you would like to post the scriptures that back up your statements I would be happy to discuss them, after reading other posts made on other threads, I recognize you are zealous to promote a trinitarian/ one God belief. Which has been addressed extensivily at the oppening of this thread.
However, I believe this discussion is live and well here www.belowtopsecret.com... and could certianly stay there for hundreds more posts yet to come.




[edit on 25-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

the first is God refering to himelf in the OT, and the second is God also refering to himself in Revelation...neither of these have to do with the son...so

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
This is obviously Jesus because he was dead and is now alive.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
This is also Jesus because he is saying something that should be recognizable from the Gospel, giving water of life.

reply to post by jmdewey60



Thanks, that helps, as by quoting the scripture then the context can be considered.
I thought that your quote of "I am the first and the last" was taken from Isaiah 44:6, where God is clearly defining his position as the one and almighty God.

In Rev 2:8 and also at Rev 1:17 Jesus made the statement of being first and last the living one, who was dead but now has the keys to death and Hades.(Rev1:18) When did God die, for he cannot, he is eternal.

Jesus was not claiming equality or even oneness with God, he is using a title properly put upon him by God...This title would have been appropriate and recognizable to the early congregations(Col 1:18 firstborn from the dead) as they were aware of Jesus being the first human (uh, human form, do not misinterpret me to be saying his earthly form was God's firstborns oriqination) to be resurected to immortal spirit life. And he is also the last to be ressurected by Gods hand as at John 11:25 Jesus states that he is the ressurection (John 1:4, John 14:6, Col 3:4, 1 John 1:2)

Rev 21:6, that is indeed God, the Almighty, and for him to say that the water of life flows freely through him could not be more accurate. Of course Jesus offered it, the gift of life flows through Jesus, it originates with his father, and as there are numerous scriptures that I know you are aware of where Jesus prays to his Father, tells others not to worship him but the Father only, the very next verse in your cited text, Rev 21:7 in reference to the inheriters..."I shall be his God and he shall be my son." This is still God the Father talking, notice how it when in context the thought that God as a father figure not Jesus who is often called son of man....


edit to correct scripture in second paragraph..Rev 1:17 not Rev 1:7 thank you

[edit on 26-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

Here is another thought for you. You beleive I understand, that Jesus is an aspect of God, prior to his existence on Earth, and then returned to being with/as God after he assended to Heaven right?

Are you aware of "the archangel"? and how dows he fit into your veiwpoint?
Here is a quoted from the Publication, "What does the Bible really teach" produced by the WTBTS in 2005, this book is often being offered by JW's in their field ministry, you might wanna consider asking
for one next time they are knocking on your door.

"What does the Bible really teach" pg 218
"Who Is Michael the Archangel?
THE spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?”
But who is Michael?
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.
Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.”
Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ,  Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael."
Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7)
Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41)
Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role."

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Jesus is the description of God. You have God, the indescribable, and the Son, the interpretation, on a practical level, of the Father.

so, you have an indescribable person standing in front of a mirror and suddenly the reflection is describable.

jesus is an image of his father but apparently according to you he's not a very good one. otherwise jesus would be indescribable.

One is not a part of the other and one is not separate from the other. The two are the same thing. The seen and the unseen of the One. (of course what I just said was in human, physical terms, so none of it is true, it is just a metaphor)
"I am the First and the Last." "I am the Alpha and the Omega" how about 2?

that my friend is dualism (or whatever you call it). the believe that jesus and GOD are the same person.

jesus never claims to be the alpha and the omega.

rev 1:[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

verse 8 is specifically referencing the almighty with is a title exclusive to Jehoah

[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

in this verse, alpha and omega is added to give jesus the title. nowhere is it found in the original greek

Rev.21:[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

again GOD

Rev.22:[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

again GOD

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
This is also Jesus because he is saying something that should be recognizable from the Gospel, giving water of life.

actually no, it is god speaking in 6

[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Wow this thread gets more interesting with each new responce! I've gone through it 3 times now! Flag for you.

Just to add, Jesus didn't start out as an immortal being, proof of that is that he died, he received it when he was resurrected by God. It is curious that eventually all immortal beings with the exception of the Almighty God will have to of died to receive their immortality.

Yet some humans will never die at all, but they won't have immorality, just perfect everlasting life.

The regular angels have everlasting life in the spiritual plane of existence, whereas humans on earth will eventually have everlasting physical life on this earth. So there is three categories and rank

1) Immortality-God & Jesus and other specially selected ones from earth that die and are raised to heaven.
2) Everlasting life in the spiritual plane of existence-all other angels
3) Everlasting life in the physical world on earth-billions of humans

Thanks on the heads up on Rev 1:7 had referenced it in my response, I intended to be citing Rev 1:17...I edited



[edit on 26-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Blue_Jay, check out this thread www.belowtopsecret.com...
Eternal, Immortal, Perfect
In the context of the thread I use the term perfect instead of everlasting life as in, being perfect in the sense for what we were created, we have the (just as the angels) prospect of living forever, but it is not guaranteed, but a possibility

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

Rev 21:6, that is indeed God, the Almighty, and for him to say that the water of life flows freely through him could not be more accurate.

Take a look at Revelation 22:13 and 16.
He says he is Alpha and Omega and then says, "I Jesus".

Are you aware of "the archangel"?

Of course. Where do you think the JW's ripped it off? From the Seventh Day Adventists. (I might add, along with every other part of the JW religion that is decent)


[edit on 27-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566

. . .jesus is an image of his father. . .

No. The image, not a copy of another image.

. . .the believe that jesus and GOD are the same person.

God is not a person. Dualism would mean they were opposing, which they are not. Being unseen does not make you in opposition to the seen. They may seem to be opposites when you put it into human language. That's why I said it is a metaphor.


[edit on 27-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

. . .Jesus didn't start out as an immortal being, proof of that is that he died. . .

In John 10:18 Jesus says he has the power to take up his life. to quote, "I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."
Acts 2:24 says that death was not able to hold him.
Is this all meaningless? Was Jesus just running his mouth about some gobbledygook? Was it a parable and did not have a practical application?
Or an infinite God all of a sudden is not infinite because there is this one thing he can not possibly do?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Take a look at Revelation 22:13 and 16.
He says he is Alpha and Omega and then says, "I Jesus".

your missing the switching of gears in verse 14

[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

first person, GOD talking

[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

third person, jesus talking about GOD

[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

first person, Jesus talking about himself