Debunking false claims about Jehovah's Witnesses. 1-14

Some of these exact topics are covered in greater detail in these threads on ATS.


Hell is a Conspiracy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

The Hebrew Tetragrammaton Or God's Name

Is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

Bible Translations compared

One thing the JW's have learned, no more dates, they won't even suggest a date as being plausible now. 1975 being the last one that some of the hierarchy got over excited about and passed it on to the rank and file members. But some members rightly rejected it, as scripture says nobody knows the day or hour.

Basically the feeling JW's have are the same as many people that visit ATS have, things are not right in this world, and the systems that we know today particularly the political, commercial and religious systems today, cannot last, they are coming to an end, they are virtually unsustainable.

The planet will carry on, but the systems that humans are used to will be disabled and destroyed to make way for a pure theocracy from heaven, free from mans imperfect influence.

It is God's Kingdom, the first 1000 years being ruled by Christ.

Daniel 2 verse 44
"At the time of those kings, the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. But it will be established forever.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


things have not been "right" for years and years. War plague famine been goin on for thousands of years. Like I said in earlier post, every generation says the same thing..things not right, happens every generation since Jesus was murdered. JW"S and other religions have had people selling up and sitting waiting for years, for the return. Not enjoying the beauty of now, not enjoying the butterfly as it flies past, Living in their heads, living in the matrix of crap...People need to stop living in the future and start living in the now. God exists in the now, its the only time we can be with God. In this very present moment, that is God. Let ones mind travel to projecting into the future and one will loose the presence of God, the mind goes into illusion. Jesus is here now. Jesus never left us. The spirit of God, the essense of our Father/Mother is here now, never left us.


[edit on 20-5-2009 by flashesofblue]

What an amazing post with so much research and work. Well structured and extremely well written. I have debated with many about the Trinity and love to hear the Trinitarians truely believe their belief and love to hear others dispute the Trinity.

I like talking about my Father/Mother God. I enjoy reading about all the God terms in male . God is a He, the Holy Spirit is a He, the Son is a He..being a female this has always amused me. I remember asking a Baptist minister why they say very little about Mary mother of Christ, and he said like, she was just a vessel, thats why they dont talk about her. Well if you dont mind me...I thought to myself. How women was relegated to being "just a vessel", and considering the Baptists thought Jesus was the living God, I would have thought that Gods mother on earth would have been important. I like the way the catholics show Mary a little more respect. I like the idea of God being both my Father and Mother.

"What if", I said to Catholic minister once, "What if God was Mary as well, so God the Father implanted Mary the Mother with God the Son, So God travelled to earth via himself in female form and remained in male essense to oversee the whole project, of God returning to earth in human form". The catholic minister was quite upset with this theory. Maybe I should start a post on that theory?





[edit on 20-5-2009 by flashesofblue]

Blue Jay, thanks those links will prove very useful I am sure.

Flashesofblue...your Father/mother God veiwpoint is beutiful, and in some senses accurate (not the Mary being God of course, I recognize that was kinda analogous yes?) God is a spirit, thus has no sex. However from a strictly biblical veiwpoint, the thing you have apparently been banging your head against for years as to the persona of God being portrayed as male is still exactly that, Jesus called Jehovah his Father, told us to pray to our Father in Heaven ect... I am sure that has much more to do with the family heirachy in a male led system than trying to accurately depict Jehovah as something beyond mens comprehension...so for the purpose of helping mankind identify more closely with their creator, logically God gets a mans face. But of course he does not have a mans face, he is of spirit, not flesh. Jehovah is the original creator, it took no other to compliment God for God's creation, nor did Jehovah need to have hermaphadite qualities, God created, that simple. No sex required. None greater than the other.
But, this is a non issue for us now( there are much greater aspects of God's persona), as since we can but try to imitate Jehovah's qualities and do Jehovah's will, to get lost in debating God's sexual orientation should be a non issue. Besides, imagine if God was depicted as a her, then questions as to where Her spiritual head (man) would be..thus opening the floor to debate as to one god or two... as I wrote this I tried to go back and remove all the He's and Him and His, and replace them with God or Jehovah, and it is clear to me, that in conversation alone picking the persona of the head of a family, as God surely is, is the simplest form of relating to Him, making Him part of our daily lives...
This is my Opinion, I couldn't actually find (and I looked) any literature by Jehovah's Witnesses that directly address this subject, maybe that could give you a hint as to their perspective on the matter...either its a non issue, or there are more important things to focus on when preaching the good news of God's Kingdom, and that should be our primary goal, just as it was Jesus's.

Peace

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
This is my Opinion, I couldn't actually find (and I looked) any literature by Jehovah's Witnesses that directly address this subject, maybe that could give you a hint as to their perspective on the matter...either its a non issue, or there are more important things to focus on when preaching the good news of God's Kingdom, and that should be our primary goal, just as it was Jesus's.

there was an article recently in the past year on the nature of god.

it basically says the same thing, that god doesnt have a sex. neither male or female.

but it actually gets into why he is called father.

if i can find it, ill transscribe it.

Originally posted by flashesofblue
things have not been "right" for years and years. War plague famine been goin on for thousands of years.....

....JW"S and other religions have had people selling up and sitting waiting for years, for the return. Not enjoying the beauty of now, not enjoying the butterfly as it flies past, Living in their heads, living in the matrix of crap...

.....God exists in the now, its the only time we can be with God. In this very present moment, that is God.

makes me think of a scripture

2 peter 3:by saying, "What happened to the Messiah's promise to return? Ever since our ancestors died, everything continues as it did from the beginning of creation."

referring to his return in matt 24 jesus starts by describing the sign of his presence and difficult things would get. and then he describes your beliefs.

[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

live in the "now"

1 cor 15:[32] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

reply to post by flashesofblue


Miriam, thanks for the hint, I looked again and sure enough in October of 2008 there is an article in the Awake titled "The Nature of God"

Flashesofblue, I read your thread about people craming their veiwpoint down your throat, I don't want to come across that way, so this is for your info if you are interested in knowing what stand is made in the publications produced by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Again, the following info is from the Awake magazine 10/08

The Bible’s Viewpoint
What Is the Nature of God?
“GOD is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth,” explains the Bible. This statement reveals a basic truth about God’s form, or nature—he is a spirit! (John 4:19-24) Still, he is described in the Bible as a person, an individual. His name is Jehovah.—Psalm 83:18.
Some Bible readers have expressed confusion regarding the nature of God. Since God is an invisible spirit, rather than a material being, why are there so many passages in the Bible that speak of God as if he had eyes, ears, nose, heart, arms, hands, fingers, and feet? Some may conclude that God has human form because the Bible says that man was created in his image. A closer look at what the Bible says can eliminate such confusion.—Genesis 1:26.

Why Human Characteristics?

To help humans to understand God’s nature, Bible writers were divinely inspired to use human characteristics to refer to the Almighty. Scholars call such terms anthropomorphic, meaning “described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes.” These terms reflect the limitations of human language to describe the true God, Jehovah. The intent was to capture the essence of the heavenly and convey this in ways that humans can comprehend. This does not mean that we should take these terms literally any more than we would Biblical references to God as “the Rock,” “a sun,” or “a shield.”—Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 84:11.
Similarly, to convey the idea that man in a limited way has qualities like those that Jehovah possesses to an absolute degree, the Bible says that man was created in God’s image. Obviously, it does not mean that humans are spirits or that God has human form.

Is God Male or Female?

Just as assigning human features to God is not to be understood literally, use of the masculine gender to describe God should not be taken literally. Gender distinction is unique to physical creatures and is a linguistic device that reflects the limitations of human language to capture fully the essence of Almighty God, Jehovah.
The Bible’s use of the designation “Father” helps us to understand that our Creator can be compared to a loving, protective, and caring human father. (Matthew 6:9) This does not mean that we are to view God, or even other spirit creatures in heaven, as being male or female. Gender, in the sense of sex, is not a characteristic of their nature. Interestingly, the Bible indicates that those who are called to be joint heirs with Christ in his heavenly Kingdom do not expect to retain their human gender when they are glorified as spirit sons of God. The apostle Paul reminded them that “there is neither male nor female” within their ranks when they become glorified spirit sons of God. They are also figuratively described as “the bride” of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. All of this illustrates how human features as ascribed to God—as well as to his only-begotten Son, Jesus, and other spirit creatures—should not be understood literally.—Galatians 3:26, 28; Revelation 21:9; 1 John 3:1, 2.
Correctly understanding the male role, Bible writers employed the masculine gender when referring to God. They saw in man, properly fulfilling his role, an appropriate reflection of Jehovah’s loving, fatherly interest in his earthly children.—Malachi 3:17; Matthew 5:45; Luke 11:11-13.

God’s Dominant Quality

Although a spirit, the supreme Sovereign is never aloof, shrouded in mystery, or uncommunicative. His spirit nature is no impenetrable barrier to righthearted individuals, who want to know and appreciate his love, his power, his wisdom, and his justice, which also define his nature and are evident in creation.—Romans 1:19-21.
God’s nature, though, may be summed up in his dominant quality, love. So outstanding is his love that he is said to personify it. (1 John 4:8) This quality encompasses other characteristics of his nature, such as mercy, forgiveness, and long-suffering. (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 103:8-14; Isaiah 55:7; Romans 5:8) Jehovah is indeed a God of love who invites us humans to draw close to him.—John 4:23.

[Footnote]
See, for example, Genesis 8:21; Exodus 3:20; 15:8; 31:18; 1 Samuel 8:21; Job 40:9; Psalm 10:17; 18:9; 34:15; Proverbs 27:11; Ezekiel 8:17; Zechariah 14:4; Luke 11:20; John 12:38; Romans 10:21; and Hebrews 4:13.

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


thank you, i actually really like that article.

Question I've always had about JW....

Revelation states that the 144,000 must be virgin males descended from the 12 tribes of Israel. That said, how can any JW who is a non-virginal male, and/or can't trace ancestry to those 12 tribes, hope to be one of these 144,000? Aren't females completely left out of this? Not to mention, this is a pretty finicky number. Sure, back when the book was written, this was likely a MUCH bigger number (probably even too big for most to grasp), but these days, it's a small city.

reply to post by Gazrok


Gazrok

I am sorry I have a busy weekend, got in very late, and won't have any free time until Monday...but I'd thought I'd just throw a couple scriptures out there.......

(Revelation 14:1-5) 14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

There you see the number twice, these are unique, the term virgin is related to not fornicating themselves with the Harlot of false religion, but follow the Lamb (Jesus) they are also called first fruits, and in other chapters of Revelation, the 24 elders, also the little flock, below we read they are judges, and they suffered for bearing the truth about Jesus and God...

(Revelation 20:4-6) 4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand.

Next, here are some descriptions of their role and who they are....

(Luke 12:31-32) 31 Nevertheless, seek continually his kingdom, and these things will be added to YOU. 32 “Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.
(Luke 12:41-42) 41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?

Also

(Revelation 7:4-10) 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand; 6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh twelve thousand; 7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Is′sa·char twelve thousand; 8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed. 9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.

Again the number 144,000...with the repetition, allbeit in a prophetic book; due to its repetition, Witnesses are inclined to view this number as literal.
Do note, that following the description of the 144,000, is the mention of the other class, or great crowd. If John was just looking for big numbers, something relative to, " a lot and then a lot more" would have been sufficeint, it might not have sounded as catchy, but if the number were not to be taken literally, there would be no need to use it repeatedly.

I will certainly do more research for you later as to why it is believed they are able to be taken not only from the tribes, but also the nations... and are considered as "Spiritual Isreal", as opposed to literal Isreal. Which, if by the way you really wanted to look at it, I bet everyone of us has had a little of Abrahams seed in our family's past...maybe not, that was just my opinion for fun.


As far only males, I'll get back to you on that at the begining of the week if someone else doesn't post a satisfactory reply.......I did notice that there are plenty of threads that mention 144,000 I thought about linking them, but....I'm too tired to read them all and see which ones accurately represent the Witnesses beliefs or get lost in other discussions....

reply to post by Gazrok


im just going to expand on x´s comment. the male, and virgin thing cant be taken literally.

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
(Revelation 14:1-5)....

There you see the number twice, these are unique, the term virgin is related to not fornicating themselves with the Harlot of false religion, but follow the Lamb (Jesus) they are also called first fruits, and in other chapters of Revelation, the 24 elders, also the little flock, below we read they are judges, and they suffered for bearing the truth about Jesus and God...

2 cor 11:[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

paul was speaking to a congregation made of both male and female, married and single. obviously he wasnt speaking in a literal form.

compare the virgins to the harlot in chapter 17 of rev.

she committed fornication with the worlds nations. obviously this is symbolism of something

god had hosea take back his adulterous wife as a symbol to him taking back israel

hosea 1:[2] The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

now how can isreal as a nation commit adultery? they only can in a symbolic way. by turning to other nations, they break their vow much like an adulterer breaks their marriage vow.

the 144,000 in revelation are talked about as a group. virgins in that they do not taint themselves with worldly thinking and worldly trust.

The 144,000


-A literal number.

-Symbolic virgins, spiritual virgins from God's perspective.

-Includes both women & men.

-They make up an integral part of the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

-Gathered from 33CE until present, NOT JUST Jehovah's Witness's

-God picks them, and they know because Holy Spirit activates the heavenly hope in them, which they did not always have.

-God has gathered some from every generation, to have a good cross section of representation of ex-humans.

-Thus very few are left to be chosen for this calling because it has been already going on for almost 2000 years.

-The last few remaining ones MIGHT have their lives ended early as God takes them to heaven at some point during the Great Tribulation, this point is debatable and we really don't know for sure. It is known as the rapture in most christian religions.

reply to post by Gazrok


Regarding the 12 tribe question:

Again, this should not be taken literally, for the 12 tribes listed in Revelation diverges from the usual tribal listing (see Numbers 1:17,47).

The tribal listing in Rev. is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes, but to show a similar organizational structure for "spiritual Israel". This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation... 12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this "Israel of God" is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole "nation" is to rule as kings, and the whole "nation" is to serve as priests (see Galatians 6:16 and Rev 20:4,6)



[edit on 23-5-2009 by holywar]

Thanks for posting this, I've been away so I havent had the time to read it but I will. thanks again for all your hard work on this!

I just heard something that made me laugh, on John Anderson's the voice of Reason. He had this pastor on, who made his own version of the Bible that uses some of the changes that the New World does but it is for people who do not want to carry around a JW Bible.
Not sure what it all entailed but he was emphasizing the Hell issue.
John Anderson started sounding suspect to me when he said Jesus was begotten when God raised him from the dead. But they both ripped on JW's for saying only God has immortality. A little hypocritical to me, when he seems to be not giving Jesus immortality until he was raised, which is no different (or only slightly) than what JW's teach.

Off the cuff without doing any research first or taking the time to scriptually back up the claim....this is a pre appology, as I really prefer when I make claims about bible views to back them up with verse, but I'm lazy tonight...
It is my current understanding, only God is eternal, and the 144,000 (along with Christ) are the granted imortality, not even the angels got that!




[edit on 24-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

only God is eternal

Right, but there is a difference between eternal and immortal. Adam was immortal but it was conditional immortality.

Adam was immortal? I thought he was perfect? What do you base the immortality of Adam upon? Perfect is one thing....I know I am not backing my statements at this time, I really just stopped in to check new post then like a dork started spoutin off...
But, yeah, what says Adam was immortal?
Thanks

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom

what says Adam was immortal?

They had to be run off and kept out of the Garden in order for them to eventually die. Otherwise, they never would have died. God never had the intention to create a man to die. Apparently there was an opportunity for man to die, if he does the one thing God told him doing will cause him to die.

reply to post by jmdewey60


the truth was in your answer =
"Apparently there was an opportunity for man to die"
If there was "an opportunity for man to die" then he wasn't immortal...maybe we have different opinions of the term and its use.

Read Gen 2:15-17 When Adam was put in the garden God told him if he ate of the forbiden tree that they would positively die. They were run out of the garden, because it was a punishment, and had they stayed they could have eaten from the tree of life. They were not made immortal, however the possibility of not having to experience death was available to them. (Gen 3:22)

I just created a thread title Eternal, Immortal, Perfect.
Maybe you would like to be the first poster with your veiwpoint there?




[edit on 25-5-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]