Torture? I went through worse in basic training

From Wikipedia..... The My Lai Massacre ( pronunciation (help·info), approximately [mi.˧˩˥'lɐːj˧˧])[1] (Vietnamese: thảm sát Mỹ Lai) was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, all of whom were civilians and some of whom were women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968.

Many of the victims were sexually abused, beaten, tortured, or maimed, and some of the bodies were found mutilated.[2] The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.[3][4] Of the 26 US soldiers initially charged with criminal offences for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley was convicted. He served three years of his life sentence.

When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also reduced U.S. support at home for the Vietnam War. Three U.S. servicemen who made an effort to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were denounced by U.S. Congressmen, received hate mail, death threats and mutilated animals on their doorsteps.[5] Only 30 years after the event were their efforts honored.[6]

The massacre is also known as the Sơn Mỹ Massacre (Vietnamese: thảm sát Sơn Mỹ) or sometimes as the Song My Massacre.[7] The U.S. military codeword for the hamlet was Pinkville
Let me introduce you to the word "expedient", in military jargon that is the fastest, easiest and most profitable way to attain your goals. Lt. Calley was the scapegoat, he was selected to pay for the sins of his superiors.....he served three years of a life sentence. Prosecuting George Bush and his cronies would be a pyrric victory, they would never serve a day for their crimes and the media circus would only serve to detract from issues vital to our economic survival. True justice would be for them to have to endure what they subjected innocent people to. I call them innocent because they have not been found guilty of anything in a real court of law.

The difference is that you knew it was going to end.

POWs don't have that luxury. They have to deal with this day in and day out for YEARS.

Training gives you the advantage of knowing that at some point the grueling physical demands will end and that you will go on.

POWs know only that they will have to endure that torture the next day and the next day and the next day and perhaps the people torturing them will kill them.

Your safety for the most part was not in question. You were being trained. You were supervised.

POWs have to deal with the idea that the men doing these terrible things to them might kill them.

If torturing a known terrorist could possibly provide a tiny bit of good information, or small peak at the inter workings of terror organizations, or maybe even save one innocent life, then I say get medieval on their a$$, then cover their corpse with spam before you let the dogs eat them. Violence is all they understand, and all they deserve.

Originally posted by smokingmonkey
If torturing a known terrorist could possibly provide a tiny bit of good information, or small peak at the inter workings of terror organizations, or maybe even save one innocent life, then I say get medieval on their a$$, then cover their corpse with spam before you let the dogs eat them. Violence is all they understand, and all they deserve.

I guess my question is:
Who decides who is a known terrorist? There are millions of Americans on the so called, "watch list". This means that according to the government, there is suspicion that these MILLIONS of people may be either known terrorists, terrorist sympathizers, suspects.... So where do we draw the line??? Let's say your wife is on the terror watch list thus making her a terror suspect. Is it ok to torture her for information? Can you see how easy this can start with torturing osama himself for information to torturing ANYONE who MAY have some information???

I myself have no interest in coddling ACTUAL TERRORISTS but let's be honest, if the bush administration had real evidence against most of the detainees at gitmo, they would have had no problems trying them in a real court.

Originally posted by smokingmonkey
If torturing a known terrorist could possibly provide a tiny bit of good information, or small peak at the inter workings of terror organizations, or maybe even save one innocent life, then I say get medieval on their a$$, then cover their corpse with spam before you let the dogs eat them. Violence is all they understand, and all they deserve.

your better off with pigs..they will get rid of the bones and all..
To cheif half cock,when you go over seas and see what we have seen,you'll understand that why there is a need for what they done to get what info they did..when your battling an enemy that knows no boundry's sometime you need to get at there level or lower to get an upper hand..Its not the PC or ''in'' thing to do by the emo generation..I would go out on a limb and say if those pics never came out we would be saying ''what torture''..right now everyones out there covering there ass and pointing fingers..

reply to post by jfj123


jfj, the reason the death penalty is no longer a deterrent is because they've sanitized and concealed it. They hide it away, which is counterproductive to being a deterrent.

When you have public exectutions, and the public attends, especially the youngsters, I guarandamntee you that witnessing this will make a lasting impression.

Saw a guy hanged as a kid, and I never forgot it, especially his last twiches. I never wanted to be on the end of a rope, and made myself a promise while still a kid.

You make executions public, and you'll see a difference in whether it's a deterrent or not. As a responsible parent, you take your kid to an execution, and he'll never forget it.

Originally posted by Redpillblues

Originally posted by smokingmonkey
If torturing a known terrorist could possibly provide a tiny bit of good information, or small peak at the inter workings of terror organizations, or maybe even save one innocent life, then I say get medieval on their a$$, then cover their corpse with spam before you let the dogs eat them. Violence is all they understand, and all they deserve.

your better off with pigs..they will get rid of the bones and all..
To cheif half cock,when you go over seas and see what we have seen,you'll understand that why there is a need for what they done to get what info they did..when your battling an enemy that knows no boundry's sometime you need to get at there level or lower to get an upper hand..Its not the PC or ''in'' thing to do by the emo generation..I would go out on a limb and say if those pics never came out we would be saying ''what torture''..right now everyones out there covering there ass and pointing fingers..

Ethical considerations and Geneva Conventions aside, I'm sure you can make an argument for your side if you know for sure that someone is absolutely 100% a terrorist. But what about torturing a SUSPECT? Is that ok with you to?

When the guy is a combatant, shooting at you, he is armed, and he has no uniform, it's a real simple calculation.

Armed, shooting at you = non-uniformed combatant.

NOT a suspect.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123

 

jfj, the reason the death penalty is no longer a deterrent is because they've sanitized and concealed it. They hide it away, which is counterproductive to being a deterrent.

Haven't been to Texas lately have you?

When you have public exectutions, and the public attends, especially the youngsters, I guarandamntee you that witnessing this will make a lasting impression.

It may or may not. In countries where this occurs, crime still does happen. Criminals have the mentality that they aren't gonna get caught cause they're too smart.

You make executions public, and you'll see a difference in whether it's a deterrent or not. As a responsible parent, you take your kid to an execution, and he'll never forget it.

And be traumatized for life
And I doubt that public executions would lower crime rates.

Originally posted by dooper
When the guy is a combatant, shooting at you, he is armed, and he has no uniform, it's a real simple calculation.

Armed, shooting at you = non-uniformed combatant.

NOT a suspect.

I agree but that's not my question.
What you're saying is black and white and I COMPLETELY understand that there MUST be an us or them mentality or you die. But I haven't been talking about that part of it. I'm talking about the torture of suspects. People who someone MIGHT think they COULD BE a terrorist. Notice all the conditional phrases? Those are the people I worry about.

First off, you don't just pick people at random off the street when you bring them in for questioning.

You've usually got contacts, recording, video, repeated contacts with known subversive militant, and you start from there.

And those countries that they really hold to public executions? They may have petty crime, but the serious stuff is a rarity. Very rare.

Executions work. And it doesn't traumatize the children. It teaches them that some behavior is not acceptable, and that there is a penalty.

We have become such a candiass nation of slack-jawed pansies that we can't be strong enough to do what is right, when it needs doing, and to hell with the fairies.

you have to realize that they are very smart..smarter than us in the respect that they know what we can and can not do..They stratagize around it..Christ they use our own media against us..Thee biggest thing is perception..If you see what they want you to see they have already partly won..I am sure the prisoners we had were more than identified as combatants or people of value..They will make you perceive that their innocent all the way till there back unscrewing the ends of artilary shells making IED's.....Palestine films fakes fire fights and sells it to the world as real..Thats the kinda stuff our government is dealing with..

Originally posted by dooper
First off, you don't just pick people at random off the street when you bring them in for questioning.

You've usually got contacts, recording, video, repeated contacts with known subversive militant, and you start from there.

So you pick up joe schmo who happens to know a guy who maybe a subversive militant. You question joe and then what? Torture him to get the info you want?

People get picked up off the street all the time for "questioning".

And those countries that they really hold to public executions? They may have petty crime, but the serious stuff is a rarity. Very rare.

Interesting. Could you post some statistics?

Executions work.

Yes the person who is executed will not commit another crime.

And it doesn't traumatize the children.

Of course seeing someone killed would traumatize a child ! That's like saying being molested wouldn't traumatize a child.

It teaches them that some behavior is not acceptable, and that there is a penalty.

Or their parents cant do that. Worked just fine for me

We have become such a candiass nation of slack-jawed pansies that we can't be strong enough to do what is right, when it needs doing, and to hell with the fairies.

Or we're becoming a bit more civilized and have realized your kind of mentality has no place in modern society.
Oh and I'll just assume you're not referring me as a candy ass as you don't know me

Originally posted by Redpillblues
you have to realize that they are very smart..smarter than us in the respect that they know what we can and can not do..They stratagize around it..Christ they use our own media against us..Thee biggest thing is perception..If you see what they want you to see they have already partly won..I am sure the prisoners we had were more than identified as combatants or people of value..They will make you perceive that their innocent all the way till there back unscrewing the ends of artilary shells making IED's.....Palestine films fakes fire fights and sells it to the world as real..Thats the kinda stuff our government is dealing with..

Did you know some of the gitmo detainee's have been released after being found innocent?

In fact, the problem of torture does not stem from the prisoner who has information; it stems from the prisoner who doesn't. Such a person is also likely to lie, to say anything, often convincingly. The torture of the informed may generate no more lies than normal interrogation, but the torture of the ignorant and innocent overwhelms investigators with misleading information. In these cases, nothing is indeed preferable to anything. Anything needs to be verified, and the CIA's own 1963 interrogation manual explains that "a time-consuming delay results" -- hardly useful when every moment matters.

Intelligence gathering is especially vulnerable to this problem. When police officers torture, they know what the crime is, and all they want is the confession. When intelligence officers torture, they must gather information about what they don't know.
www.washingtonpost.com...

Whatever. If Opinko has his way, we'll do things your way. So far, he's apologized to everyone he can think of, his Marxist buddies he hanged around with have obviously had an impact, so at this point, I really don't give a damn.

George W. Bush had a lot of faults, but one fault he didn't have was having a swinging pair when it came to dealing with these guys.

Six years he kept us safe by using every method legal.

I think we should do it just as you suggest.

We can say please.

And when we have another disaster, and everyone's screaming for more intelligence, everyone's screaming that we should have done something earlier, I hope you're still on ATS.

I'll remind you that these guys aren't playing, and there is nothing you can do to make them like us. Nothing.

So we'll have our disaster. I have no idea how many lives will be lost the next time, but those deaths can partially laid at the feet of good-intentioned folks with your thinking.

We're about to politically-correct ourselves right into a disaster.

innocent...Take that with a grain of salt..Just because he wasnt caught with his hand in the cookie jar that time doesnt mean he never got one..

The biggest torture is knowing they were dumb enough to take pictures...

Originally posted by dooper

George W. Bush had a lot of faults, but one fault he didn't have was having a swinging pair when it came to dealing with these guys.

Six years he kept us safe by using every method legal.

Just curious but how do you know he kept us safe? There have been long lulls in attacks and this just could have been another lull and bush may have had nothing to do with it.
All those rights he took from us may and probably were for not.

I think we should do it just as you suggest.

We can say please.

I never said that. Not once. As a matter of fact, I bet you can't find any post I've ever made that said that. So either you're putting words into my mouth (aka making things up) or you'll be able to show where I said that. So what's it gonna be tough guy?

And when we have another disaster, and everyone's screaming for more intelligence, everyone's screaming that we should have done something earlier, I hope you're still on ATS.

I will be. And since we know torture does not work, we won't have to worry about wasting our time torturing people when we can use other techniques that ARE effective for obtaining intelligence

I'll remind you that these guys aren't playing, and there is nothing you can do to make them like us. Nothing.

Again, you're missing my point ENTIRELY.
Yes I know those Taliban and Al Queda TERRORISTS cannot be bargaining or negotiated with. They don't want peace, they want us to not exist on this planet. Yeah, I get all that and I completely agree that terrorists are bad people that are better off dead.

The problem I have with torturing is when it comes to SUSPECTS. You know, those people that someone might think they could be a bad guy so we torture them to find out. This has happened. Let's hope you or someone you care about doesn't end up on a watch list and become a suspect who is later tortured for information they don't have. Now do you see where I'm coming from? I'm not trying to protect the guilty but instead, protect the innocent.

So we'll have our disaster. I have no idea how many lives will be lost the next time, but those deaths can partially laid at the feet of good-intentioned folks with your thinking.

Nope. Not at all. Can you point to one incident where torturing a suspect have saved American lives? Citing actual evidence and not opinion.

We're about to politically-correct ourselves right into a disaster.

Believe me. I'm not politically correct. Wanna know what I thought should have happened in Afghanistan? When we had osama in the mountains, we should have bombed the mountains 24/7 using tactical bunker busters, EMP bombs, MOABS (just for effect , ABL systems to fry any terrorists we could find on the ground.
That shock and awe crap was a joke ! Drop cluster bombs, etc...

Sound politically correct to you ?

Originally posted by Redpillblues
innocent...Take that with a grain of salt..Just because he wasnt caught with his hand in the cookie jar that time doesnt mean he never got one..

So do you actually think the government never makes mistakes and gets the wrong person? Everyone in jail is guilty and should be there?

The better part of a decade later now.

A few thousand Americans killed on their own soil, a few thousand killed in the Middle East.

Tens of thousands of Muslims dead in the Middle East. Almost all killed by their co-religionists.

Lots of British and Europeans killed.

A few journalists too.

Notably ones like Daniel Pearl were spared the indignity of torture.


The folks who went through waterboarding are all alive and well.
In the end they were spared by fate, maybe from having their heads or other body parts removed. They live to fight on. You wouldn't want to be captured by them.


Mike