Illegal Immigrant - White Caucasian Settlers - Let Truth Be Spoken

reply to post by jfj123


Okay, let me try to sum up some additional things i've said

In an ideal world you should be able to go wherever your feet takes you.
But we don't live in an perfect world so that's not an option, but it should be understood.

Secondly, it is wrong for descendants of invaders to say call other immigrants Immigrants in a derogatory sense. not only is it wrong it makes no sense whatsoever.

And everytime somoeone mentions illegal immigrants they only focus on illegal immigrants in mostly a derogatory sense.
Instead firstly they should not because that's how many are in this country/continent.
And not only that, you can completely bypass bigotry by being more logical and only focusing on govt. not increasing border security. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Imagine completely bypassing derogatory statements AND tackling the issue more intelligently at the same time! Wouldn't that be great, how come nobody is doing that?

How come so many are calling me racists when others here are saying things like "3rd world fools, having 9 babies all of them" or this or that.

So if you remember that the origins of America as YOU know it is all about immigrants then perhaps you wouldn't speak of them so badly.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Bravo, Modern Academia. You really have brought them out of the woodwork, haven't you?

I understand and agree entirely with what you are saying. Others seem to have comprehension poblems, so I'll repeat the logic of your OP in the bluntest terms possible and hope it helps them get it.

1. North America was not empty when it was first settled by white Europeans. It was already popluated by native folk, whom the European settlers, an ignorant lot, called 'Indians'.
   
   
2. The white European settlers proceed to exterminate the 'Indians' and steal their land. They dispossessed, hunted and massacred 'Indians' till soon there were hardly any left. On the stolen land they then built new countries: Mexico, the United States, Canada.
   
   
3. Now the descendants of those European ethnic cleansers regard those countries as their own and go to great lengths to discourage or prevent people from other countries settling in them.
   
   
4. Bascially, they are pressing a legal title to land their ancestors gained through robbery and genocide. Based on this claim, they also assume a moral high ground vis-à-vis illegal immigrants to which they have no right. It is not their occupation of North America but this assumption of ownership and pretence of morality you disapprove of.
   

In moral and ethical terms you are completely correct to do so. But human beings are animals - territorial animals - and the claims of morality and humanism fall silent before the stronger voices of instinct and exigency.

LIke you, I am pained by the obscene contradictions inherent in a world where goods and money may move with less hindrance across international borders than people do.

I look forward to the (inevitable, I believe) disappearance of all nation-states and the emergence of a world in which anyone can live wherever he likes. It will happen, too, in spite of all the spittle-flecked right-wing vigilantes squatting on the Mexican border like toads, cheeks stuffed with Oreos, automatic rifles at the ready, their hoglike buttocks obscenely overflowing their folding chairs.

Again let me quote this excellent post.
Sums up my feelings excellently!

You should all read his post and learn from it if not from me.

Ok, first of all. Question for the OP or whoever can answer... The original colonists were part of a "technologically advanced" society, moved to a new world devoid of cities and buildings etc. How would they have lived in harmony with the Natives? Yeah they did some pretty horrible stuff, but people are people. The indians weren't saints either. Its called progress, mind you it isn't always a good thing, but inevitable none the less. Are we supposed to live like the dark ages?

Anyways... getting to the current situation: There isn't enough resources to support millions of leeches who don't pay taxes and expect to be treated like citizens without speaking english. There are certain laws now that weren't in place 300years ago, obviously. If immigrants want to come here and work to make a living, pay taxes like the rest of us, stand in DMV lines, vote, then fine. But if they leech off of society and live in hiding then... idk what to say anymore, this is ridiculous. We don't live in a peaceful holding hands around the earth world. live with it.

I am descended from the Natives and from immigrants who came here before and after the Revolutionary War. We are a nation of immigrants. Immigration is what built this country.

There is nothing in the world wrong with legal immigration. We should welcome legal immigrants with open arms.

However, there is a big problem with illegal immigration. It is helping to break this country.

Nations have borders for a reason. Nations have immigration policies for a reason. Nations have laws for a reason. People who cross borders withou regard for for immigration policies or laws are a problem....for the country itself and for its citizens.

We can haggle about where we came from forever. Point in fact is that more than likely, if we live in North America now, we are descended from immigrants, from Natives, or from a combination of both. Big freaking deal.

The problem is not the legal immigrants who respect immigration policy and laws. The problem is illegal immigrants who have no respect for the country they are coming to, the people who live there, or the people who immigrated legally.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
reply to post by jfj123

 

Okay, let me try to sum up some additional things i've said

In an ideal world you should be able to go wherever your feet takes you.

Yes in an ideal world.

Secondly, it is wrong for descendants of invaders to say call other immigrants Immigrants in a derogatory sense. not only is it wrong it makes no sense whatsoever.

Well what would you like to call people who immigrate to the US in an illegal fashion? I would think that "illegal immigrant" sounds reasonable.

And everytime somoeone mentions illegal immigrants they only focus on illegal immigrants in mostly a derogatory sense.

Well when someone talks about bank robbers, they tend to focus mostly a derogatory sense also.
We can call them whatever you like but what they're doing is ILLEGAL.

Instead firstly they should not because that's how many are in this country/continent.

If they're here illegally, they shouldn't be.

And not only that, you can completely bypass bigotry by being more logical and only focusing on govt. not increasing border security. Wouldn't that make more sense?

border security should be increased to protect our borders. Kinda of circular logic I know but we need to keep illegals out of the US.

Imagine completely bypassing derogatory statements AND tackling the issue more intelligently at the same time! Wouldn't that be great, how come nobody is doing that?

You keep mentioning the word derogatory. What do you expect us to call people who violate US law?
I guess we can call them citizens of a non-legal stature ??

How come so many are calling me racists when others here are saying things like "3rd world fools, having 9 babies all of them" or this or that.

You've lumped all caucasions into a group of blood thirsty conquerers and it's simply not true.

So if you remember that the origins of America as YOU know it is all about immigrants then perhaps you wouldn't speak of them so badly.

This statement just proves you still don't get it.
Someone else said this but NONE of us belong in the US if you want to go by that logic. Every last person on the planet should go back to africa as that is where we all originated.

So let me ask you this. How would you like to handle the current illegal immigrant situation?
Would you allow ANYONE into the country that wants to enter? If not, why not?

Originally posted by stevegmu
Well, my grandparents on my father's side came here legally from Ireland

What were the British doing to Ireland at the time?

and Germany, while my mother is Sicilian. Just one exception proves your statement incorrect.

And Germany and Sicily? Can you describe what they were 'feeing' from?

Actually, the original settlers in N. America either came here looking for riches or freedom from religious persecution.

Actually the vast majority of those who came to the US were not fleeing the religious intolerant but WERE the religious intolerant who refused to adapt to the fact that there societies were becoming more free trough state and church seperation. If you ever wondered where the bible belt's christian fundamentalism comes from now you know.

Stellar

Originally posted by jfj123
So let me ask you this. How would you like to handle the current illegal immigrant situation?
Would you allow ANYONE into the country that wants to enter? If not, why not?

Ummm
No as mentioned Increased Border Security
You know... the thing no one is talking about?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


well....apart from the question of immigration, so many of the replies here shows me that some folk do not give a rats patootie about the history of the genocide of native people here in the Americas - how can I say that? by the cavalier way in which this genocide is dismissed by some of the posts...

just an observation all be it a sad one....ah well

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Secondly, it is wrong for descendants of invaders to say call other immigrants Immigrants in a derogatory sense. not only is it wrong it makes no sense whatsoever.

The difference is in the legality and the things endured by doing things the right way, and doing things the wrong way. sneaking into a country and not subjecting yourself to the pros AND cons of that country is the wrong way.

And everytime somoeone mentions illegal immigrants they only focus on illegal immigrants in mostly a derogatory sense.
Instead firstly they should not because that's how many are in this country/continent.

Firstly, it's not illegal if there's no law, doesn't make it right, but it's not the same, time period and circumstances are radically different and are NO comparison.
Secondly, of course it's going to be derogatory start listing the positive aspects of illegal immigration and maybe it won't be as bad.

And not only that, you can completely bypass bigotry by being more logical and only focusing on govt. not increasing border security. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Where is the bigotry in saying illegal immigrants don't belong here? WHERE?

Imagine completely bypassing derogatory statements AND tackling the issue more intelligently at the same time! Wouldn't that be great, how come nobody is doing that?

The problem lies within the home countries of all immigrants, the emigrate from their homes for a better life. If their own countries were looking out for the needs of their own people we wouldn't have this problem. Granted we wouldn't have the problem if we simply constructed a giant wall along the border, but no one really wants to turn North America into Germany post world war 2. We should ideally be able to prosper in our countries of origin. IDEALLY being the key word, but ILLEGAL immigration puts lots and lots of stress on the social and economic standing of America. Tackling any subject on but one front will never fix it. Tackle it on ALL fronts and you will see it solved.

How come so many are calling me racists when others here are saying things like "3rd world fools, having 9 babies all of them" or this or that.

Two wrongs don't make a right and suggesting that one specific group of people can or cannot do this is a form of racist thinking.

So if you remember that the origins of America as YOU know it is all about immigrants then perhaps you wouldn't speak of them so badly.

It's time for you to do your homework. You cannot keep repeating "atrocity atrocity atrocity" without looking at the factors of today. Illegal immigration is a problem, and will always be seen as such because the economy can only handle so much at once.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


OK, sure people should be able to live anywhere their feet take them...where exactly would your feet take you if there were no borders? Would you remain in Canada? Or, would you seek better climates further south, like Florida?

I am guessing from your avatar that you are not a Native American yourself. Since your avatar includes the Indian national flag, I am guessing Indian extraction? Maybe even first generation?

All that really makes no difference but it does explain a lot of your opinions.

Unfortuanately for your point of view, we live in the age of sovereignty. You cannot violate the borders of a sovereign nation, simply because your feet got a little itchy. There are laws and those laws MUST be respected. Otherwise your egalitarian view soon exhausts the the resources of the host country, then the economy goes to hell, then the riots start, then the Civil War begins. This is not speculation on my part, it is in fact history.

Since the US is a sovereign country, and I would point out that since it is the world's only Super Power, that it is the most sovereign of all nations. We have laws regarding immigration and it is our right to decide who may and/or may not come here. It is the law and the law demands respect.

I have travelled to foreign nations and I would never presume that I had the right to violate their laws. In fact as a guest in their home, so to speak, I am even more bound to obey the law. Not less.

When I return to my home, I expect that others behave in the same way and respect our rules when they are in our home.

By the way, I have been to Canada and I act the same way there. How about I sneak across the border, drop a couple of kids, apply for welfare, and send all my money out of the country?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Astyanax
I look forward to the (inevitable, I believe) disappearance of all nation-states and the emergence of a world in which anyone can live wherever he likes. It will happen, too, in spite of all the spittle-flecked right-wing vigilantes squatting on the Mexican border like toads, cheeks stuffed with Oreos, automatic rifles at the ready, their hoglike buttocks obscenely overflowing their folding chairs.

Again let me quote this excellent post.
Sums up my feelings excellently!

You should all read his post and learn from it if not from me.

So garbage like Astyanax's rant sums up your feelings "excellently" eh???

Wow I can't possibly imagine why some people might have a problem with the tone or content of what you say.

Since the mid-1960s, America has welcomed nearly 30 million legal immigrants and received perhaps another 15 million illegal immigrants, numbers unprecedented in our history. These immigrants have picked our fruit, cleaned our homes, cut our grass, worked in our factories and washed our cars. But they have also crowded into our hospital emergency rooms, schools and government-subsidized aid programs, sparking a fierce debate about their contributions and costs.

www.manhattan-institute.org...

America does not have a vast labor shortage that requires waves of low-wage immigrants; in fact, unemployment among unskilled workers is high -- about 30 percent. Like Velasquez, many of the unskilled, uneducated workers now journeying here labor in shrinking industries, where they force out native workers, and many others work in industries in which cheap labor has led businesses to suspend investment in new technologies that would make them less labor-intensive. These workers come at great cost. Increasing numbers of them arrive with little education and none of the skills necessary to succeed in a modern economy. Many may wind up stuck on our lowest economic rungs, where they will rely on something that immigrants of other generations didn't have: a vast U.S. welfare and social- services apparatus that has enormously amplified the cost of immigration. Just as welfare reform and other policies are helping to shrink America's underclass by weaning people off such social programs, we are importing a new, foreign-born underclass. As famed free-market economist Milton Friedman puts it: "It's just obvious that you can't have free immigration and a welfare state."

www.manhattan-institute.org...

[edit on 20-2-2009 by Snisha]

Originally posted by Astyanax
Bravo, Modern Academia. You really have brought them out of the woodwork, haven't you?

I understand and agree entirely with what you are saying. Others seem to have comprehension poblems, so I'll repeat the logic of your OP in the bluntest terms possible and hope it helps them get it.

1. North America was not empty when it was first settled by white Europeans. It was already popluated by native folk, whom the European settlers, an ignorant lot, called 'Indians'.

Could this be why Indiana is named as such? Hmmmm.....

The white European settlers proceed to exterminate the 'Indians' and steal their land. They dispossessed, hunted and massacred 'Indians' till soon there were hardly any left. On the stolen land they then built new countries: Mexico, the United States, Canada.

(We also invented the light bulb and the car while we were scurrying about.)

Now the descendants of those European ethnic cleansers regard those countries as their own and go to great lengths to discourage or prevent people from other countries settling in them.

("Give us your tired , your poor, yearning to breathe free"....I don't suppose you ever heard that quote, have you?)

Bascially, they are pressing a legal title to land their ancestors gained through robbery and genocide. Based on this claim, they also assume a moral high ground vis-à-vis illegal immigrants to which they have no right. It is not their occupation of North America but this assumption of ownership and pretence of morality you disapprove of.

In moral and ethical terms you are completely correct to do so. But human beings are animals - territorial animals - and the claims of morality and humanism fall silent before the stronger voices of instinct and exigency.

Ever been to Rwanda?

I look forward to the (inevitable, I believe) disappearance of all nation-states and the emergence of a world in which anyone can live wherever he likes. It will happen, too, in spite of all the spittle-flecked right-wing vigilantes squatting on the Mexican border like toads, cheeks stuffed with Oreos, automatic rifles at the ready, their hoglike buttocks obscenely overflowing their folding chairs.

You won't see the change u are looking for in this lifetime. Sorry. You will get a bag of Oreos from America though. Inventors of the Worlds Greatest Cookie.

Originally posted by Skeletal Lamping
Ok, first of all. Question for the OP or whoever can answer... The original colonists were part of a "technologically advanced" society, moved to a new world devoid of cities and buildings etc.
How would they have lived in harmony with the Natives? Yeah they did some pretty horrible stuff, but people are people. The indians weren't saints either. Its called progress, mind you it isn't always a good thing, but inevitable none the less. Are we supposed to live like the dark ages?

what?
is that even an argument?
In today's world and city constructors murdering farmers?
People can't live in peace if they have the intention to build infrastructure?

Originally posted by Skeletal Lamping
Anyways... getting to the current situation: There isn't enough resources to support millions of leeches who don't pay taxes and expect to be treated like citizens without speaking english. There are certain laws now that weren't in place 300years ago, obviously. If immigrants want to come here and work to make a living, pay taxes like the rest of us, stand in DMV lines, vote, then fine. But if they leech off of society and live in hiding then... idk what to say anymore, this is ridiculous. We don't live in a peaceful holding hands around the earth world. live with it.

There are also plenty of american citizens draining the economy in this welfare state.
I guarantee you the most drainage is NOT done by illegals.
It's done by many citizens and elected officials.

Look, obviously we all agree on HOW we got here. Many of our ancestors immigrated before there were any laws in place. I should also remind many of you that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Vikings were here long before Columbus....and also very strange evidence that points to the possibility that the Egyptians made it this far as well! Likely many other nomadic peoples made it here as well. The point is, the world was a far different place than it is today, and we have infrastructure, businesses, real estate, farmland, all of these things in place. We have borders set up, we have a governing body set up. Things are much different, we have come a long way in the evolution of this land. There is also a continuous flow of people legally immigrating into this country, which is fine by me. But when we have laws already on the books that regulate the way in which people can legally enter this country, it is important that those rules are upheld. There is the real problem of overcrowding for one thing. For another, in a crisis such as our current situation, the CITIZENS of this country need all of the jobs that we can get. The last thing we need is for someone here illegally to take our jobs. THIS is my main concern. My secondary concern is the amount of people coming over here illegally that are criminals, and the percentages on that are pretty stunning. We're talking drug cartels, dead cops, and hundreds of dead Americans just this last year right across our southern border. The problem is a very real one, and has nothing to do with racism. In my view, it has everything to do with keeping the legal citizens of this country safe.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by mpriebe81]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by jfj123
So let me ask you this. How would you like to handle the current illegal immigrant situation?
Would you allow ANYONE into the country that wants to enter? If not, why not?

Ummm
No as mentioned Increased Border Security
You know... the thing no one is talking about?

So what exactly is your complaint then?
Is it that you just don't like the name that has been chosen for the illegal immigrants?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
if your parents came here legally then correct me if i'm wrong but you are not a white caucasian.

You are wrong; please allow me to correct you.

I am a white caucasian.

My grandparents immigrated here legally from Germany and Italy.

Simple as that.... you are wrong.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


One other thing, since for the purposes of this debate you are on the outside looking in.

Are you familiar with the concept of "Reconquesta"? If you then I would like your take on it.

For those of you that don't know. The concept of Reconquesta simply states that all of the land west of the Mississippi was once Mexican territory and that the illegal immigrants are really just taking back what is theirs, that is Mexicos. What it amounts to is a weaponless inasion of the US for the purposes of overwhelming the current populace and eventually returning the area to sovereign Mexican control. In effect a Cold War.

Never mind the obvious historical flaws in the Reconquista argument, it is in fact a hostile act, supported by the Mexican government. Some would argue that it is a simple deception that the Mexican government uses to keep the local peoples from wanting to overthrow the Mexican government. I would point out that the concept is in the Mexican school system and in books published by the government. In my opinion this is a very real, generations long, war that has been quietly declared on the sovereignty of the US.

Now on a different topic. How long must a people live in an area, before they are legitimate? Since none of the countries of the world are populated by their original inhabitants. So, how long until one is a legitimate heir to the land? A thousand years? 500? 100? 50?

What is the number? Since the Spanish and Portugese have been here over 500 years are they now legit? 400 years for the Pilgrims, how about them? 150 for the Irish. 100 for the Chinese. 30 for the Vietnamese.

What is the number? Surely you have some idea? Be carefull though because once you pick a number, there are many areas in the world where that number might come back to haunt you. For instance the Vikings in England 700 years ago. The Arabs in the Middle East, 1200 years ago. The Turks, the Greeks, the Egyptians, they are all immigrants to some degree.

Well ya know - as 2012 approaches - we should be prepared.

As immigrant ET's begin filtering in and taking over our lands.

Oh - I can hear the cries now - "This is not your land. We don't care if you out grew your world. This is our world."

But - alas - we are vastly outnumbered - and beneath their technology.

The nature of biological entities - - survival of the fittest - - in need of - food & shelter to care for their families.

Screw Humanism.

FINALLY SOMEONE WAS ABLE TO PUT ON THE TABLE THE THOUGHTS I HAD IN MY MIND AND BEEN TRYING TO EXPRESS THEM MYSELF. THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO PUT IT.

reply to post by mpriebe81


See the thing is is that if you read the posts I made in this thread after the original one you would see that I agree with you.

But my point is stop talking racistly about illegals and only talk about border security.
That's like you live in an appartment, there's many mice and all you do is complain about the mice but you never once call the landlord.

Obviously that makes no sense.

My opinion is that everyone calling me a racist are people who have a disease known as blind patriotism.