Are the Old and New testament God the same God?

The best thing that could ever happen to Christianity would be to disengage from the Old Testament and send it flying into outer space where it belongs. There is nothing in it that we Christians need. The OT God Jehovah demands BLOOD SACRIFCE. This practice was BANNED by the Christians in 325AD. Why? Because Christians viewed blood sacrifice as propitiating demonic entities.

It is because of the OT that Christian Evangelists support Israel. that the US is enmeshed in the ME and fighting Israel's battles and letting that parasitic state suck us dry.

Let me add that the FIRST BIBLE was ONLY the New Testament. This Bible was published by MARCION bishop of Sinope (Greek Asia Minor) in 160AD. There was huge opposition among christians to including the Old Testament in the Bible. the dominant bishops had to declare Marcion/Marcionism HERETICAL.

Imagine the power, the wealth - Christianity was about to become the dominant, official religion of the ROMAN EMPIRE. There was a huge push to `JUDAIZE JESUS' by including the OT and we Christians have been suffering from it ever since.

AGAIN PEOPLE !!!

you can prove AND disprove science but you cannot do the same with god as there is none prove or disprove.

STOP BEING SLAVE TO RELIGION ALL ARE CULTIST, ALL ARE EVIL IN ESSENCE ALL SEEK TO CONTROL THE WEEK AND IGNORANT.
stop being weak and stop being ignorant, give up your shackles of religion and walk as truly free spirits and embrace life its self
without the laws of men long dead from an age out of touch with today,

AS I UNDERSTAND,,,,,,
GOD ONLY EVER WANTED US TO BELIEVE IN HIM, HAVE FAITH IN HIM,,, NOT START DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS FACTIONS SO THAT WE ARE SEPARATE IN LIFE,
today we have leeches who come ready with the so called word of god himself, but then shake the donations basket at you,
he drives a nice big car and lives in a nice big house and eats well at his supper,, for this he can give thanks to the ignorant and weak.





[edit on 3/2/2009 by heretic today gone tomorr]

I hear so many anarchist cries to destroy religion - we don't need it! they say. Yes we do need religion. God and the family are the basis the building blocks of civilization. i enjoy reading the teachings of Jesus the Christ, they are full of wonder.

To help understand this problem, think of the OT as dealing with God without a mediator, nothing between man and God but the Law.

The New Testament represents dealing with God through a Mediator that has satisfied the wrath of the Almighty. For those that understand there is peace now. The others remain under the law which cannot save man and yet the Almighty demands it to be observed. So those under the law will lose.

Originally posted by justamomma
The world does not revolve around us...

Well I agree with that one..

“The supreme arrogance of religious thinking: that a carbon-based bag of mostly water on a speck of iron-silicate dust around a boring dwarf star in a minor galaxy … would look up at the sky and declare, ‘It was all made just so that I could exist!’”
Physicist Peter Walker

..but not with your other opinions.

I think you're making the mistake of confusing 'speculation and conjecture' with 'actual knowledge'.
Whether it be conscious or not,misrepresenting opinion as factual in context is never nice to see (thats why its caled faith and not fact).

If we're being honest about it,noone knows whether god (if god exists) is a he,a she,an it or a they.

As for three mainstream abrahamic opinions,theirs is just one of thousands upon thousands of gods and godessess worshipped by man down the years - a veritable pantheon to choose from.

To my mind - comments and actions from/by the abrahamic god just seem too sociopathic,malicious and shallow for there to be any truth
to it.

Supposedly divine instructions like
'a person who tries to convince an Israelite to convert to another religion must be killed'
or
'kill anyone who doesn't listen to a priest' appear so man made as to be laughable.

Does it realy matter which part of which book you use when cherrypicking from the abrahamic mythologies?

In all of them god appears childish,cruel,attention seeking,vindictive and bloodthirsty - hardly the omnipotent and wise creator of 550 billion galaxies each containing 10 to 100 billion stars.





[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by karl 12
In all of them god appears childish,cruel,attention seeking,vindictive and bloodthirsty - hardly the omnipotent and wise creator of 550 billion galaxies each containing 10 and 100 billion stars.

And those are his good traits!

I agree... The God of the Bible does not fit the profile.

I've always wondered... what is the purpose of torturing countless people in Hell? There can only be one purpose, and it sure as Hell (no pun intended) isn't "righteous"...

Originally posted by TruthParadox
I've always wondered... what is the purpose of torturing countless people in Hell?

I think its possible hell could have just been a rubbish tip on the outskirts of ancient Judea - it seems a more plausible and feasible explanation than the alternative anyway.
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Jesus quoted OT scripture numerous times. Evidently, he didn't see the same apparent inconsistencies that are driving people mad on this post. If you're a follower of Jesus, then it should be easy enough to accept that God's ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. Is 55:8-9. Jesus on the cross should be enough to convince you of that. Not surprising that just before Is 55:8-9 in Is 55:7, we get the prescription for a right relationship with God and forgiveness.

Maybe that's why Nebuchadnezzar could be a believer even after the things he did. Is that fair?

Almost nobody is willing to admit that their preferences and biases manifesting their own wicked ways are the reason they find many things in the bible unacceptable to them. If God tells the Hebrews to wipe out the Baal worshippers because he's going to give them the land, that's bad. If God punishes the Israelite nation by sending them into bondage in Babylon that's rather haughty of God. If God puts his son on a cross to pay the price for our sins, that's bad because most of you think you're sinless or that your sins don't lead to death for both yourselves and others.

You want to be your own Gods - you want to define good and bad on your own - nothing has changed.

I prefer to believe that everything God has done, will do, or is going to do is good because he is God. It's my brain that needs to be rewired to accept this.

reply to post by Mynaeris


Old Testament God is different in many ways from New Testament God, a lot of them have already been mentioned.

He's ordering the deaths of everyone in Jericho, drowning every human being (aside from Noah's family) in a flood, cursing every human being that will ever live just because Adam and Eve have sinned, smiting the first-born in Egypt, essentially ruining Job's life (and killing his kids), demanding all sorts of sacrifices, complex laws, and rituals.

Suddenly an angry God who is supposed to be the same "yesterday, today, and forever" is merciful, he's not the vengeful jealous genocidal God of the OT, though he'll still throw you in Hell for disbelief...

I've heard people make the excuse that God is allowed to kill people, that he created us and doesn't think of death in the way we do... Poppycock, it was GOD'S RULE that Thou Shalt Not Kill, that was his rule, and through much of the Bible He doesn't even follow it... What kind of double-standard is this?! Its His rule and he can't even follow it?!

Anyway good luck on your journey towards the truth, the deeper you get into the Bible (especially when you're using logic) the less it will make sense...

i think the old testament has a PROBLEM.
i do believe that, other than the prophecies, the books of the old testament should be treated as historical not divine. i believe the historicity can also be a bit confusing for people, and i think the primary reason that is, is that there's more than one "god" being referenced in the text. i don't know how else to put it without tearing down the house and reconstructing it from the ground up and i'm not that brave or that pompous

reply to post by Ichabod


Are you suggesting that when the biblical god killed over 33(ish) million men,women and children they simply had it coming?

Are you saying that this cruel,homicidal behaviour is somehow exonerated because 'god works in mysterious ways'?

Are you of the 'true beleiver' opinion that the god of the abraham mythologies is justified when he says:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

If so,and god's word is perfect,then why don't you just mindlessly follow out these biblical instuctions?

Heres a good example of the abrahamic Gods handiwork...
dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

.....and the various techniques employed:
dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

Some pertinent points for you here as well:
dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Are you suggesting that when the biblical god killed over 33(ish) million men,women and children they simply had it coming?

Are you saying that this cruel,homicidal behaviour is somehow exonerated because 'god works in mysterious ways'?

Are you of the 'true beleiver' opinion that the god of the abraham mythologies is justified when he says:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

If so,and god's word is perfect,then why don't you just mindlessly follow out these biblical instuctions?

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

I think ATS needs to sponsor debate lessons for its membership.

The premise is that God is good, not that he works in mysterious ways. His ways are not our ways but not necessarily mysterious. If God is good, then he has his reasons for wiping most of creation off the map at the flood. He has his reasons for telling the Israelites to destroy the people in the land before they take it. He has his reasons for wiping out Sennacherib's forces before they can destroy Jerusalem. He has his reasons for the statement immediately preceding the one you chose:

Ex 22:19 - Whoever has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

Do the believing Jews today follow this directive? Should they? Absolutely. Can they? No, because of the civil laws in most countries. Did your little 33M count include all the sheep fornicators who have been cut off in history? Better keep counting. Sorry if this offends your sense of fairness or your narrow, self-styled view of right and wrong ... or perhaps your "rights" to do the sheep of your choice.

You assume that God can either be good or bad. Therefore, this gives you the luxury of entertaining the notion that "maybe those Canaanites didn't deserve this even though they practice baby sacrifice..." or "maybe Sennacherib's soldiers didn't deserve this even though they were about to rape and pillage their way through Jerusalem..." or "maybe the fruit of the tree of knowledge is good for me..."

Your indignation at the thought that God could wipe out some of his creation is ridiculous. Your bleeding heart for those killed is nothing but vanity and hypocrisy. You've never wandered in the wilderness. You've never been a slave. You've never had to fight a country filled with Satan worshippers just to get to the next point on the map.

The good news for you (I guess) is that you can continue rolling in your self-righteous indignation - you'll find out shortly enough if God really does have the final word ... and here's the bad news, your self-righteous indignation will not be credited to you as righteousness.

Originally posted by Mynaeris

Same God...

OT: Defender of one nation....with a purpose...to bring a SAVIOR to all....He did this through a geneology

NT: Defender of Mankind...

= = = = =

Also humans have developed, as He knew they would....I answered this point in another religious thread....so I'll cut and paste my older thread to answer you...

Here...

I am a believer in the secular-influenced-Lawrence Kolberg, and his theory of Moral Development…built upon Jean Piaget’s Cognitive Development…both behavior scientists of the mid 1900’s.

To summarize Kolberg…every decision/perspective/rationale and ultimately BEHAVIOR…is a result of the their PRIMARY stages of development…

Here’s an overview…

Stage 1 – Decisions/perspectives….based on REWARD and PUNISHMENT…this is the most basic (immature)…another way to say it…the ‘stick’ (ruler) or the ‘carrot’ (sweats)…or from a religious perspective…..‘heaven’ and ‘hell.’

Stage 2 – Decisions/perspectives…based on EXTERNAL Influences…another way to say it… “RULES.”

And

Stage 3 – Decisions/perspectives…based on INTERNAL Influences…another way to say… “PRINCIPLES.”

Here’s an example to bring it to life…

“A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.”

The question to ask…to determine…their (current) stage of development is…

Q - “Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?”

A – Stage 1 – “I don’t steal…because I’m afraid of being ‘caught!’

A – Stage 2 – “I don’t steal…because it’s ‘wrong!’

A – Stage 3 – “I don’t steal…because I respect others and their property!” But LIFE is more important…and I’ll pay the price, but a life will be saved!”

Kolberg’s theory is right on, in my book…

His approach, in my mind, is a reflection of the TRUTH documented in the Holy Bible…

Stage 1 – Reward and Punishment – Torah - “...If you eat from this tree, you will surely die…” Genesis 2:16

Stage 2 – Rules - All those old testament commandments…

Stage 3 – Principles – The new testament writers review when the Lord Jesus was asked, “…which is the greatest commandment?” He responded… “…it’s the principle of love…Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor AS YOURSELF.” Matthew 22:36

“ALL the Old Testament rests on this!” Jesus said in Matthew 22:37

By the way, Kolberg explains, that the transitions from one stage to another…is predominantly achieved through asking…”why?” and that’s what ATS stands for!!!

= = = = = =

OldThinker

reply to post by Ichabod


I know sex with animals is disturbing and deserving of jail time but you honestly think God wants people to be killed for it? You honestly believe its an offense that should be punishable by death?

You're okay with the fact that GOD set up the Ten Commandments, amongst which is the THOU SHALT NOT MURDER commandment, and then He is said to turn around smite all sorts of people? A God who is above his own commandments?! You're okay with the fact that every living being in Jericho was commanded to be killed, the the first born of Egypt were supposedly smitten by God Himself (many believe this includes first born CHILDREN), that what God did to Job was justifiable or okay? Drowning every man, woman, and child on Earth in a Global Flood is okay?

That someone should burn in Hell for an eternity at the command of a God who is supposed to be FAIR (and merciful and loving) just for believing in another religion/god...

The FACT is that Old Testament God is a mean and nasty hombre who'd sooner have the ground swallow you up as look at you and that Logically the only conclusion one can come to is that the Bible is the flawed work of man in an attempt to understand the Universe and set up a social-moral code...

Check out Numbers 31: 17-18:

"17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who is not a virgin.

18But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves."

So this is the sort of activity that God concerns himself with? His people go around slaughtering people at his command and then keep the virgins for themselves? This is both frightening and disturbing...

Sorry but I refuse to put my faith in a book that has so many logical contradictions and disturbing events/commands. The Bible's just a book written by men, its is not of divine origin, the argument and evidence against it is too overwhelming to pretend it is the "Word of God"...

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Well, you're in good company with your resistance to the authority of God. The Israelites had problems carrying out these commands also and then reaped the whirlwind. See Numbers 33:50-56. Sorry to all my Jewish brothers out there - I couldn't have stood the trial either and you performed far better than any other culture would have.

I think there are several instances where we can avoid carrying out the commands of God and still make it through our case. For instance, in cases of charity, piety, or necessity. Those three at least were demonstrated by Jesus himself. So, when you appear before God you can say, "Yes, I violated your commands but I had a good reason and consequently, because I was presented with either doing good, or doing evil, I attempted good." I suspect that every cop who had to kill a person will be able to make this exact argument.

Fornicators of various stripes won't have the benefit of this argument as theirs is an entirely vain and self-serving pursuit of wickedness.

So, what are all the fornicators, adulterers, liars, thieves, and murderers going to do? They don't have many options in front of the judge and I think this is the central problem that they have with accepting God's authority. So, they choose to deny it, deny God, and put their fingers in their ears. They come up with self-serving arguments about the 'fairness' of various doctrines and attempt to wrap a sinless God in the predicament that sinful humans have willingly placed themselves.

Good luck whistling past the graveyard folks. It isn't like Jesus didn't tell us what to expect.

reply to post by sanshisan

Can i ask you if that religious comfort blanket keeps you warm?
would you like some milk and cookies?


Are any of you blind? deaf? or dumb? or just UN interested in facts?

Have you missed or dismissed the facts that are available which pre date even the
"ten commandments" and "1st bible" and every other bible and scripture from those times and everyone which is mentioned in them?,
The writings/paintings are literally on the walls of caves and temples and pyramids all over the world depicting the same kinds of things,
but how would they know in ancient America what the ancient Egyptians were drawing to get the same kinds of pictures?
Humans were around way before written word like in the bible so it is their art which shows us these facts and scale of time, paintings and symbols and carvings which have remained unchanged and have not been modified to fit any modern beliefs so that would mean they must be those cold hard facts we have all been looking for!,,, or not if your DEFIANTLY religious! So if you are, then that means that you'd be closed minded, narrow sighted, unwilling to listen to reason, unwilling to learn the truth, the real truth.

Your religious, so i guess by being religious you then believe that nothing happens by coincidence because according to gods "word" it is all by design!
So is it coincidence that all of these art works by early humans that depict the same beings/people and symbols that we find in other parts of the world? don't forget travel was limited to the continent, they had no means of traveling overseas! (unless god parted them),,
(but wait, this is way before gods birth!)
Humans are more ancient than god ("who is apparently just over 6 thousand years old,, depending on your religious beliefs and of course if i got that guess is right or came even close"),
theres also the FACT that its written that "god" created the earth etc etc in 6 days, really?, i thought that earth was more like in the billions of years old,,
so if god is supposed to have been around 6 thousand years ago and the earth,,,,, well its just not making sense or even adding up is it!

Then theres heaven, where would that be then?,,, well it used to be up where the clouds are (if im guessing correctly),
but then we explored the clouds and of course heaven mysteriously moved up to beyond there and into space,
(is this what they mean by "god works in mysterious ways", is that when they come up with that saying, to explain why heaven apparently moved?)
oh and then we explored way up there in space too and wouldn't you know,, heaven wasn't there either,, "heaven sure is good at hiding!"
Ive even heard speculation that it was at the very center of our galaxy,,,
ah but then we had a good look there too and theres only a black hole there, Will it be in there then??

C'mon people pull your heads outta your a$$es,
and for some people pull your a$$es out of your heads.
I would say wake up and smell the coffee but its cold and moldy by now, but its still not to late to get the truth, and when they say the truth will set you free they really mean it, it will be a scary freedom for some!
keep your faith if you like but at least give up the evil that is the religious establishments.

RELIGIOUS ORDER,,,,, hmmm could that actually mean ORDER BY RELIGION,, naaaahh they wouldn't do that to us ,,, would they??

thats why its there people!

[edit on 3/2/2009 by heretic today gone tomorr]

reply to post by Ichabod


So liars and thieves will go to Hell?

Good then Hell will be absolutely PACKED, in fact I'd say 99.9% of human beings will be in Hell if we take the Bible as a literal guide book to getting into Heaven.

All the interesting and cool people will be in Hell if there's any truth to the Bible.

You are so silly, I honestly shook my head in amusement as I read your reply. You can't defend a silly erroneous belief system from the blinding light of logic and truth, in fact you didn't really even defend it from any of my points.

I'm not attacking or resisting God, I'm merely attacking one narrow view point of Him, a view point which stems from the false belief in the Bible as anything more than a flawed man-made collection of documents... There is no evidence to support the Bible as having any authority or being truly from God, the book merely CLAIMS to be a divine product of God... A claim that can either be blindly bought into or can be TESTED with the use of logic...

Well I'm here to say, sadly enough, the Bible failed the test, now the search for the REAL God begins...

my understanding is the the ancient Hebrews were an amalgam of tribes from wherever they sojourned

while doing this they encountered many people many religions and absorbed these religions into their composite religion

In doing so they took the original names of the various Gods of the many stories and mythologies that they co opted into their writings and simply called them all LORD


whether they were Gods OR Goddesses ,

the result is a mix of attributes that remain confusing to this day ,unless you know how it came about,then it makes perfect sense

reply to post by invisiblewoman


if you go all the way back, Enlil is the first god name. The etymology is LIL
IL
EL
AL
Other gods began to have the same title. For example, BABEL means Gate of God, also known as Bab-ilu. there's the EL and IL forms (babel, babilu), which had eventually become the generic word for all gods. Thus you see Elohiym in the biblical texts as a name for the sons of god (translated this means, the other members of the divine council) and for EL (Enlil) and the Divine Council as a single group.

So the hebrew writings are correct in that Enlil (the sumerian-akkadian name for the head honcho "god") is The Most High God. Later, various members of the Divine Council end up with the same title, which the english language can't seem to differentiate very well.