New Worries About Meth Trends

Originally posted by asmeone2
Ican't find who said it here, but I do think certain drugs could be said to be "worse" than other addictiosn in that they make people violent.

It might have been me, I said:

Originally posted by americandingbat
I hesitate to call any one addiction worse than another. People say it's hardest to kick oxycontin; certainly meth use is especially conducive to certain lifestyles that leave a lot of damage for years after the addict quits.

By which I didn't mean to imply that some substances don't cause more harm to society than others, but that I didn't want to get caught up in the all-too-frequent "substance A is harder to quit than substance B" debates. It is possible to quit any substance if you rigorously follow a 12 step program – personally I found quitting drinking to be much harder than quitting smoking, but I have a lot of friends for whom it was the other way around.

People on drugs like meth and heroin that have a reputation for being "hard to quit" get a raw deal, in my opinion. While they may have more serious withdrawal symptoms than other substances, that's not an addict's real battle. I think a meth addict should go into recovery with the same expectations as an alcoholic… it's likely to be the hardest thing they ever have or ever will do, but it is absolutely possible.

But I agree that some drugs wreak more havoc on society (and among these are the drugs most profitable to the powers that be in their "War on Drugs").

[edit on 1/25/09 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by americandingbat
[
But I agree that some drugs wreak more havoc on society (and among these are the drugs most profitable to the powers that be in their "War on Drugs").

[edit on 1/25/09 by americandingbat]

Thats what I was getting at.

How "hard" anything is to quit is up to the individual's character and willpower so you can't compare that.

But some things IMO have done a lot more harm than others.

Meth is utterly Evil, deceptive and leads to your doom... I honestly believe that the drugs that enter our society do so with purpose from higher ups and Meth was chosen to rationalize the war on drugs to people, because without a truely evil drug, there is no reason to maintain a "war on drugs" is there? at first coke was the choice but price was prohibitive and even Crack didn't often enough offer the permanent mind changes and methods of thinking for a truly moronic contained populace.

If one was a person, who started out as a Psycho pharmacologist career wise and thus had sampled every drug there is from an ethnographic point of view of living in and becoming part of the "lifestyle"

One might impart the following knowledge to others:

Meth causes more damage faster than any other street drug variety, it is the hardest to heal from, almost impossible to recover from many aspects of the brain damage associated with it's use.

From 3 months of Meth use, Fibromyalgic attacks lasted 18 months, recovery of concentration in full 24 months, Teeth were permanently damaged, negative sexual side effects persisted 24 months, auditory hallucinations 6 months, mood disorders lasted 30 months

No other drug ever came close to the negative consequences or would make one say that any further use was life threatening in terms of permanent unrecoverable damage even in small amounts of use other than Meth

3 months is an incredibly short time frame to enter a zone where the physical body let alone the mind might be unable to heal or require a couple of years to heal from the sheer toxic nature of the chemical.

Of a group of ten users half are imprisoned, 1 is dead, 1 is in a mental institution another is a prostitute now

2 of ten survived both had in common, advanced degrees or equivalent knowledge of bio chemistry and psychology.

It is a nightmare substance

I will add, only the war on drugs has seen the USA move from a nation of Pot heads to a nation of Meth users and that, sadly is what is happening.

It's easy to make, easy to hide, orderless, when you make it, you don;t have to ship it around so it' easy to get away with until you get carried away.

The Real Hook

That no one talks about is:

SEX

Meth actually as a Physical addiction is no where near as severe as many other drugs, it has an aspect in that people WANT to continue doing it for the pleasure, but it is not the pleasure of the High itself that has people captivated so much as the sexual pleasure from the high and sexual obsession

Phx has dozens of reports weekly at hospitals of people who head to the emergency room from Masturbation injuries, masturbate so much they bleed...

Once Sex addiction and Meth addiction overlap it's next to unstoppable because the person Desires it regardless of consequences, the Homosexual community has new aids fears largely as a result of Meths use as a sex drug of choice...

In fact homosexuality and cross talk between the hemispheres has been associated and Meth far more than coke will cause men to slip off to the other side very often, so if your homo phobic... add that to your list of reasons not to do Meth, you might just find yourself having the desires of a Bottom inexplicably and if you don't know better act on them. Only 2 drugs you hear that about Coke and Meth "I sucked____ for that" When Painkillers and Heroin are far more addictive but you never hear that story... why? Enough speed, enough cross talk it becomes a more desirable option for some men...

I would rate the increase in aging at:

1 year every 30 days of chronic use, after a year or so, you will look visibly 12 years older than you are... it maxes out at OLD, but you can be 26 after a few years and look closer to 50 and remain that way even if you kick... no other dope causes this.


I would place Meth in a unique category along with only one other Drug Cigarettes in terms of the insidious way it offers nothing while killing you, absolutely no redeeming benefit that's not a trap or a lie and utterly is designed to simply suck you in and kill you over time

If we ever wish, for acceptance of Drug use, those that believe in modification of the self must be honest when it comes to dope, Meth has no redeeming purpose and it is a killer, a FAST killer, it has it's place in a discussion here because the warning must be clear, your life will end...

The debate over to legalize some drugs may or may not have a place, the jurys out, people tend to be positive on some subjects and yet, a site or person might not wish to inadvertently "advocate' the use of something illegal, that is an understandable thing

But to not issue a clear and solid warning on what Meth really is or what will happen to people... many of whom in here are "truth" seekers and might wish to see for themselves if given ignorance or shut on the subject, to Not tell them, hey... "not even a bit of this stuff" would be remiss of morals













[edit on 26-1-2009 by mopusvindictus]

[edit on 26-1-2009 by mopusvindictus]

reply to post by Walkswithfish


Have you ever seen a meth addicted newborn? Have you raised a child who was born to a mother that used meth throughout her pregnancy? I don't think mandatory birth contol is asking too much, even tie their tubes because once they have been that addicted, even if they quit using, they are never the same and will never be, depression will always take precedence in their life, and fighting the addiction, relapse is not just a remote possibility, it is almost assured.

It is a horrible thing to see a child born to a meth addict, even if the child doesn't have immediate signs, seizures, ect the effects begin to show up when it is time for them to begin talking. Learning is very difficult for them, and speech disorders set in right away. I am speaking from first hand knowledge and research I have done, since my meth addicted niece now has 4 children, 2 were born addicted, 2 suffer the seizures since birth, the older ones can't talk right and are in speech therapy now, they are not able to go to school due to their problems, they are like they are years behind, still like toddlers. Sad. The state took the first 2 away, after numerous reports from family and neighbors, and my sister adopted them, but my niece has since had 2 more, both born addicted and take harsh drugs to calm them, basically to sedate them, along with seizure meds, and the state is giving her a chance to raise them even though she cannot pass a drug test, even though she tested positive at their births, she even overdosed while pregnant. What is scary is that her story is not unique, it is common among meth users. The kids suffer, so badly, expecially if they are left to fend for themselves in an addicts care. Personally I feel that I have lost 5 family members to meth now, even though they are alive, they are no longer the human beings they were, they are shells of people now, and their poor children are not protected. If this is how the states are going to handle the kids situation it would be better if they are never concieved in the first place.

reply to post by americandingbat


What 12 step program does this info come from???
Page 24...addict/alcoholic does not have the power to choose...
Page 85...We are never cured of alcoholism/addiction...
Chapter 3---The state of INSANITY that precedes the first drink/drug...
If an addict can choose whether he will get high or not, then why, in the face of dire consequences, does he??? Just don't drink and you'll be ok??? Good luck with that philosophy. Unfortunately that's what addicts do, they get loaded.
This info you post sounds like common sense, but NOT, DEFINITELY NOT, the true 12 step model.
To many people have contaminated the 12 steps with GARBAGE that sounds good, but leads those in recovery astray. In 1939 there was a 50% recovery rate. It's about 1% today because addicts have added their own little twist to things...
Read the Big Book. That's is THE ONLY 12 STEP program. If it aint in there, its BS. And what a shame that so many think what they are doing works, only to find themselves loaded again in 5,6,7 years, just as their lives were getting really good...

reply to post by odd1out


I'm sorry, I think you read something into my post that is not there.

Believe me, I have read the Big Book. And the 12&12.

And I know that I am powerless, and that if I pick up the first drink I will trigger the mental obsession that led to my inability to stop drinking until I had a moment of grace in my first AA meeting.

And that so long as I do not pick up another drink, my reprieve from obsession and compulsion will continue – that in order to make that happen I must live the 12 steps.

I'm pretty sure I said something in my post about "if one rigorously follows a 12-step program" one can have a reprieve from addiction. And about that requiring a moment of grace – an instant in which it is possible to reach out and take the first step out of addiction – to admit that one is powerless over alcohol and that one needs help.

If I said anything that implied any of that wasn't true, I am sorry.

_________________________________________________
edit: just as a point of interest, Bill W often used the term "recovered" instead of "recovering", as do many speakers now. From the first lines of Chapter Two, "There Is A Solution":

We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, know thousands of men and women who were once just as hopeless as Bill. Nearly all have recovered. They have solved the drink problem.

(p. 17 of the Big Book, emphasis mine)

[edit on 1/26/09 by americandingbat]

I hate to come off sounding cold hearted.. and I am not.. but I had a drug addiction... not meth, but just as addicting and actually harder to get off... pain killers. I was told there was no way to get off of the drug without treatment. I cried BS and quit my habit of one year in one day. The depression lasted about 6 months and was pure hell, both physically and metally all w/out stepping foot into rehab.. but I did it because I knew enough was enough and that those around me in my life deserved better from me. Hell, I deserved better from me. I have been off of them now for over 3 years and don't even care to go back to that.

If they wanted to quit.. then they would. It is that simple. So, I agree w/ the lady on the front page who says cut them off from having babies and then I will add, give them their drug and let them destroy themselves. We continue to fund people who obviously don't give a damn about themselves.

When they want to get off, they will. It is that simple.

reply to post by Walkswithfish


I don't know meth seems like it would be a fun adventure. I've been looking for something to do in my off time 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Plus I'm guessing you NEVER catch a cold.....and come on those people in the video looked legit....all in all looks like a fun little hobby.

Originally posted by space cadet


It is a horrible thing to see a child born to a meth addict

I can only imagine. How horrible, for an adult who makes the decision to use drugs, like meth and coke or heroin, at least they were given a choice, unlike children born into that life.....so sad. My heart goes out to you and your family. I personally haven't had to experience the horrors of meth addiction, either myself or firsthand through a family member, but everything I've read and seen has been more than enough of a motivation to never touch that horrible devil drug. Don't get me wrong I've been around the block a couple times, but I will never ever touch that stuff. Again my heart goes out to you and yours, and wish you the best through the crucible that is addiction.

also to those talking 12 steps and recovery, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I would say alcohol and Methamphetamine addictions are two completely different things. yes in some ways all additions are alike, but in some more accurate ways they are very very different. that's not to say 12 steps or recovery programs are ineffective, that's not what I'm saying at all. However Meth addicts are a different breed than alcoholics and that's really saying something.

Originally posted by justamomma
I hate to come off sounding cold hearted.. and I am not.. but I had a drug addiction... not meth, but just as addicting and actually harder to get off... pain killers. I was told there was no way to get off of the drug without treatment. I cried BS and quit my habit of one year in one day. The depression lasted about 6 months and was pure hell, both physically and metally all w/out stepping foot into rehab.. but I did it because I knew enough was enough and that those around me in my life deserved better from me. Hell, I deserved better from me. I have been off of them now for over 3 years and don't even care to go back to that.

Now THIS is what im talking about folks! Someone who knew they were imbued with the power to change their problem and habit, even if it meant being sick, even if it meant depression after the sickness goes away, even if it meant all of that hard work and struggle, you went through it by choice because you wanted to and knew you needed to and most importantly knew you had the ability to. You didn't need a stupid rehab "failure clinic" or worse, a methadone or buprenorphine program from the government which is trading one pill for another. You did it on your own .. just like me .. thats my boy! Only I and a few other people truly know what you've been through my man .. and I just wanted to give you thumbs up.

Originally posted by space cadet
reply to post by Walkswithfish

 

Have you ever seen a meth addicted newborn? Have you raised a child who was born to a mother that used meth throughout her pregnancy? I don't think mandatory birth contol is asking too much, even tie their tubes because once they have been that addicted, even if they quit using, they are never the same and will never be, depression will always take precedence in their life, and fighting the addiction, relapse is not just a remote possibility, it is almost assured.

Good point, and if they want to make this mandatory fine, but again it does nothing to address the problem of addiction to meth.

While you may believe that a woman who had beat meth addiction can't be a good mother and should not be able to have kids, silly. There have been and will be women who beat meth addiction, and with proper treatment can go on to live absolutely normal lives. You underestimate the human spirit, disappointing.

All of this focus on meth babies is warranted, I understand the concerns, and do not disagree with most of it, but if we had a better system apart from the criminal system that could address addition to meth then perhaps a greater good would come from it.

The world has got to stop looking at addicts as criminals, and treat the addiction, not through an endless cycle of jails and ultimately prison.

For anyone who wants to learn more about 'meth babies' and related issues go here...

www.kci.org...

There is a wealth of information available on that page with numerous links.

Originally posted by justamomma
I was told there was no way to get off of the drug without treatment. I cried BS and quit my habit of one year in one day. The depression lasted about 6 months and was pure hell, both physically and metally all w/out stepping foot into rehab.. but I did it because I knew enough was enough and that those around me in my life deserved better from me.

…

When they want to get off, they will. It is that simple.

While I'm very glad that you were able to beat your addiction, I think it's worth pointing out that a 12-step program is not a rehab/detox. I also got sober without setting foot in a detox or a rehab (though in my case it was probably not wise, since I had DTs which can be life-threatening), and without spending a cent on my recovery until my life was back together enough to start throwing a dollar in the basket at my home group.

And while the process of getting better was, as you say, pure hell at first, relying on other alcoholics who had been through the same process or who were going through the same process was actually empowering for a woman who has a hard time not doing everything for herself, by herself.

Asking people for help in this day and age is a sign of strength, not weakness.

___________________________________________

Somehow I missed this post on my way through the thread yesterday, and I think it's a good question:

Originally posted by asmeone2
Do you feel tha the trend to lable addiction as a disease rather than a set of choices has been a detriment to peoples' recovery efforts?

This is my opinion, and how I understand what Alcoholics Anonymous has to say about the "disease concept of alcoholism."

It's a lot like diabetes in a way. By the time you admit you need treatment, it is not a set of choices anymore, even if at one point it could have been averted (if only someone cut down on carbs earlier, if only someone's parents didn't teach them to turn to candy for comfort …)

Defining alcoholism as a disease rather than as a set of poor choices opens the possibility of a cure or treatment. It does not mean that the addict has no options – it means that the addict can stop the cycle of shame and self-blame and look outside of his or her own head for a solution to the problem.

That doesn't mean it doesn't take work, choices, and especially willingness to recover in a 12-step program. It just means that there is a treatment available for the disease that I have, and that if I rigorously follow that program of treatment my disease will be halted.

A couple people in this thread have advocated stopping on one's own rather than turning to a program for help. If that works for someone, fine by me. The Big Book has something to say about people who are able to stop or moderate on their own despite having been heavy drinkers. It calls them "a certain type of heavy drinker" (p. 20) and says

If a sufficiently strong reason – ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor – becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.

To go back to the diabetes analogy – by the time most addicts actively look for a solution, their diabetic counterpart would be suffering things like diabetic neuropathy, blindness, organ failure.

They're going to need to change their diet, but they're also going to need a program of treatment that can address both the root causes of their diabetes and the consequences of it – the toll it's taken on their mind, body, and spirit.

[edit on 1/26/09 by americandingbat]

There has been a lot of reference to the 12 step program in this discussion and if anyone is interested in learning more about it please go here....

www.12step.org...

If you are seeking help with meth addiction, for yourself, a loved one, family member, or friend, here are some good places to start looking...

The Matrix Model -(A Multidimensional Approach To Stimulant Treatment)
This is a federally funded program of intensive out-patient services, usually found in cities where you find “Drug Courts”. Most clients are court ordered, but you can self refer as well.
www.matrixinstitute.org...

S.M.A.R.T. Recovery
This is a free abstinence-oriented (don't drink or use - period) recovery program but doesn't employ the spiritual components of AA and the other 12-Step groups.
www.smartrecovery.org...

SMART recovery also has a state by state list of free/reduced list recovery/treatment centers
www.smartrecovery.org...

Much more here...

www.kci.org...

Hotlines and Helplines

Drug & Alcohol Treatment Referral National Hotline: 1-800-662-4357

National Helplines: 1-800-HELP-111

PRIDE (Parent’s Resource Institute for Drug education): (707) 458-9900

Narcotics Anonymous, World Service Line: (818) 773-9999

National Alcoholics Anonymous: 212-870-3400

More here...

www.kci.org...

You can beat meth addiction, take the first steps to recovery today.

Don't be a statistic.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Walkswithfish]

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
Meth is utterly Evil, deceptive and leads to your doom... I honestly believe that the drugs that enter our society do so with purpose from higher ups and Meth was chosen to rationalize the war on drugs to people, because without a truely evil drug, there is no reason to maintain a "war on drugs" is there?

Like so many 'evil' drugs meth entered the US 'society' through legal methods first. and pharmacological companies are still to this day seeking beneficial applications.

In the 1950s there was a rise in the legal prescription of methamphetamine to the American public. According to the 1951 edition of Pharmacology and Therapeutics by Arthur Grollman, it was to be prescribed for "narcolepsy, post-encephalitic Parkinsonism, alcoholism, ... in certain depressive states... and in the treatment of obesity."

The 1960s saw the start of significant use of clandestinely manufactured methamphetamine as well as methamphetamine created in users' own homes for personal use. The recreational use of methamphetamine peaked in the 1980s. The December 2, 1989 edition of The Economist described San Diego, California as the "methamphetamine capital of North America."

In 2000, The Economist again described San Diego, California as the methamphetamine capital of North America, and South Gate, California as the second capital city.

Legitimate medical uses?

d-Methamphetamine is used medically under the brand name Desoxyn for the following conditions:

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder;
Extreme obesity;
Narcolepsy

10 mg DesoxynBecause of its social stigma and toxicity, Desoxyn is not generally prescribed for ADHD unless other stimulants, such as methylphenidate (Ritalin), dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine), lisdexamphetamine (Vyvanse) or mixed amphetamines (Adderall) have failed.[citation needed]

en.wikipedia.org...

War on drugs?

Methamphetamine is classified as a Schedule II substance by the Drug Enforcement Administration under the Convention on Psychotropic Substances.[59] It is available by prescription under the trade name Desoxyn, manufactured by Ovation Pharma. While there is technically no difference between the laws regarding methamphetamine and other controlled stimulants, most medical professionals are averse to prescribing it due to its notoriety.

Illicit methamphetamine has become a major focus of the 'war on drugs' in the United States in recent years. In addition to federal laws, some states have placed additional restrictions on the sale of precursor chemicals commonly used to synthesize methamphetamine, particularly pseudoephedrine, a common over-the-counter decongestant. In 2005, the DEA seized 2,148.6 kg of methamphetamine.[60] In 2005, the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005 was passed as part of the USA PATRIOT Act, putting restrictions on the sale of methamphetamine precursors.

Your theory is a valid one, and deserves more investigation.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Walkswithfish]

reply to post by wayno


You brought up some good points about who benefits financially from drugs. Not too often do I see topics like this. If there is a conspiracy to keep drugs on the streets, then it is a financial one. Legalize drugs,tax them,use the proceeds for prevention and education, and hopefully the problem will go away.

Originally posted by americandingbat
Asking people for help in this day and age is a sign of strength, not weakness.

I didn't say otherwise and I got much help from my family and friends. I had a 2 year old son and a one year old. So, no doubt I needed help.. to say otherwise would be a lie on my part.

My point is, I did it because I knew I had to. I had these two precious beings looking to me to be responsible for them! I was a very spoiled child growing up and this experience showed me that while I may need help, it is within me to take the step necessary in my life to better myself for both me and mostly for them.

Like I said, pain killers (especially the amount I was taking per day) is MUCH harder to get off of than meth. It was not an easy path to follow, but I FORCED MYSELF to follow the right path! If I can do it.. me, having grown up as somewhat of an ilk, if I can do it w/out going into rehab, I don't buy excuses from others; especially those who opt for these stupid pampering rehabs that really only teach the people to be more self centered.

The best thing that was said to me during my process of clearing my system was not 'poor you' or 'you can do this' or 'we all make mistakes.'

Hell no! The best things that were said to me was "Suck it up" and "you brought this on yourself" and "get up and take care of your babies!"

I did not take those things as insults.. I took them as truths and used them as catalysts to not give up.

Anyone who can't do such a thing deserves what they are going through. I KNOW there is a G.d and He is my Father, but there is no doubt in my mind... survival of the fittest. Let the weak destroy themselves. It should be their right and their choice. There should be no punishment other than what they are doing to themselves. Let their families deal with it. But enough is enough of locking people away who will just do the same thing once they get out again.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by justamomma]

It is hopeful that the feds have monitored the sale of sinus meds that are used to make meth but the truth of the matter is that most of it comes from Mexico.

It is made in dirty labs with dirty ingredients including chemicals from Raid cans.

Many years ago when the bikers ruled the meth traffic it was a different drug.

Not as dirty, but still addictive and harmful.

I have a nephew who wigged out after a few years of use. He was outside crawling on all fours and paranoid as all get out. He was hallucinating that "they" were after him and was terrorizing his family. The police had to come and take him to jail to protect his family.

The other aspect that was mentioned is the deviant sexuality. It seems to create something in the brain that craves alternative, sometimes victim sexual abuse. It is often unsatiable, the cravings for sex. Some of the addicts go for days.

I live in Missouri and there was a case a couple of years ago where a couple lured two different woman thru meth into a threesome. Both times they video taped and killed the woman who trusted them that they were just going to have some "fun" . The couple then went on the run and they went to a nearby town where relatives lived and took their small daughter to get a burger. She was also molested by them before the police caught up with them.

Meth is a great destroyer, and like any drug it at first gives, but then soon takes.

edit to add:

Years ago there was controversy that crack coc aine, being mostly used by the black community was targeted and many black men were being jailed for it. It was soon after that meth became very available and it was mostly used by the white community. This seemed to even out the prison system and take away the accusation that racism was being advocated.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by interestedalways]

reply to post by odd1out


I agree there is the 12 step program, and that it is helpful for many. But that is usually for maintenance. But if you wanna go somewhere to detox, that is another problem.