Israel 'admits' using white phosphorus munitions

WP is very nasty, indiscriminate stuff. Regardless of the legalities, I believe it is morally wrong.

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
Tell that to the WW2 soldiers who finally got tired of killing one another and decided to lay down their arms to play soccer on Christmas.

My Grandfather was a Captain in the British army in WWII and told me about this. Apparently one side had plenty of matches and the other cigarettes, so they traded them too. I don't think either side told their superiors they were having a "day off", but neither side wanted to see anyone die on Christmas Day.

At least they had respect for each other, war is much nastier these days.

I am so sick of people saying "But it's war, laws in war don't work."

That is such a STUPID thing to say.



So war is the "get out of jail free" ticket is it?
Next time someone wants to start wiping out other religions/races or stealing land, it's OK, we'll let them do it, just as long as they say it's a war.

You've got to be kidding me.


Let's just throw ALL notions of civilization out the window then.

Hell, let's form warring tribes, killing off other neighborhoods.


That idea people seem to have gotten stuck in their tiny heads that nothing is illegal in war is incredibly stupid.

And I'm quite sure you'd be singing a different tune if YOU were the one being shelled.
Though, after what some of you have said here, I wouldn't be shedding a tear... heck, I'd be cheering on the artillery fire. Some of you need to learn a serious lesson about the horrors of war.

Clearly, some of you are still children.

reply to post by johnsky


The voice of reason.

that's what these "people" (and I use the loosely) don't seem to understand.

Originally posted by BlueRaja

reply to post by budski

 

White phosphorus is also a terror weapon.

Well if the goal is extermination, the Israelis aren't being very efficient, but that term sure appeals to emotions. There are varying figures for the actual number of casualties, and their exact makeup, but the fact remains that the vast majority of casualties were combatants.

Here's a few articles to peruse.

I know you'll probably dismiss this stuff as being biased towards Israel, but....are you going to tell me that there's no bias in the Arab media either?

www.imra.org.il...

www.ynetnews.com...

""The number of deceased stands at no more than 500 to 600. Most of them are youths between the ages of 17 to 23 who were recruited to the ranks of Hamas, who sent them to the slaughter," according to the newspaper article. "

uk.reuters.com...

"The adviser said Israel would allow the "maximum" flow of food, medicine, oil and gas to the Gaza Strip to help its 1.5 million residents recover from the offensive, which killed more than 1,300 Palestinians, but a wider range of goods, including steel and cement needed for rebuilding, would have to wait."

"Olmert's adviser said Israel's underlying goal was to deny Hamas control over border crossings that could help it cement its hold on power. "If opening the passages will strengthen Hamas, we won't do it," he said. "

I would never dismiss any information as biased, even if they are biased. dismissing information won't help.

The reason why I called it an extermination camp is because they have been under siege since June 2007. They have been imprisoned in their own land, please, what does that remind you of?

The Zionists are saying you can't fight but we can fight when ever we want, we can imprison you when ever we want, we can send our tanks when ever we want. That's the problem, the Zionists purpose of this mission was to end the resistance, that's why one of their demands are to not allow Hamas rearmament. If Hamas does not rearm than who will stop the settlement expansion? Who will stop the Zionist terror tactics to gain more and more land?

Hamas sends homemade fireworks towards Israel while Israel sends tanks and missiles, it's the same old picture where you see Palistinian kids throwing rocks against Israeli tanks.

A picture essay entitled My Street in Gaza

For those who say Israel only targets hamas, be sure to read the comments at the bottom of each photo.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by dooper

 

WP is not legal to use in civilian area's - end of story.

I can only guess that their reasoning goes something like this:

Israel allegedly consider all of Gaza a military area. Why? Because Hamas is there (and so is the Israeli military too, now). All of the civilians who were there had no business being in a military area.

Originally posted by dooper
Thank you. This use by Israel does not violate any law, because as long as they were firing at combatants, even in primarily civilian areas, it's not only legal, it's morally correct.

And all Palestinians are combatants, all of them, right?

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR
reply to post by dooper

 

"Visual tracking of identified enemy?"

Weren't you the one that said Israel doesn't know who their enemy is?

I kinda' thought that was what you were arguing, considering Israel is laying to waste everything alive in Gaza.

They are just making way for new Israeli settlements, which is what their wars in the end are all about. It's also far easier to demolish a large area using bombs than the traditional way.

Originally posted by moniker

I can only guess that their reasoning goes something like this:

Israel allegedly consider all of Gaza a military area. Why? Because Hamas is there (and so is the Israeli military too, now). All of the civilians who were there had no business being in a military area.

My take on it would be as follows:

Israel wants a permanent solution to their Palestinian problems, and has studied and learned from previous conflicts.

This much is apparent from their media management, they've taken on board the approach the British used during the Falklands war.

Falklands / Gaza

They are cynically using WP weapons to punish the civilian populus, and at the same time exploiting the grey area regarding their use in the Geneva Convention - they will no doubt claim they were used as a smoke screen, and any ground burst and low altitude burst rounds fired were accidentally.

They know this will cause more militantisation in Gaza, and swell the ranks of HAMAS, and HAMAS sympathisers.

Thus, in a year or two, when the larger, stronger HAMAS starts a renewed terror campaign, the Israelis can prosecute a much more vigorous war against them, and eradicate the problem once and for all, while at the same time portraying the image that they are only defending themselves.

Israel aren't interested in finding a peaceful solution here, rather a more final one.

They know they can achieve this due to the acquiesence of the USA, and the toothlessnes of the UN.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Poon]

reply to post by budski


I agree, but so what? They should Nuke them off the face of the Earth. What are they going to do about it? Nothing - they are an incompetent bunch of Neanderthals who can't even govern themselves. Good Riddance!

reply to post by jsmappy


How very progressive of you.

guess those anger management classes really paid off.

reply to post by Poon


I am sorry, but i fail to recall Argentina launching rockets for years at Britain proper. They had icbms?
I have no intention to defend the desicion to invade Gaza or do it as it was done. From the start of land invasion i said that it will achive nothing but get a lot people killed. Can prove if someone wants.
But still, to compare conflict over islands far away from mainland with fight for same land is not doing justice. Hamas says Israel has no right to exist. So this is not like Argentina/UK conflict or even Ireland/UK one. IRA never doubted British right to exist.
And to all saying that it is result of blockade - rockets were launched from Gaza before blockade.
The same with weird expansion claim. Rockets were fired even after Israel removed its settlements (some of them existed there before 1948 war) so rockets not intended to stop settlements. There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza anymore.
If you consider it legitimate that one side launches rockets at another then you must realise that other side will respond.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Re-read my post please.

I was only comparing Gaza and The Falklands in terms of the way the journalists are/were treated, and the media releases managed.

Nothing else.

I have seen the pictures on the use of "WP" here at this site and must say that the IDF certainly did provide a smokescreen for their own pilots and Defence Forces to ensure that they could not see what they were actually aiming at or what or whom they hit - innocent or not.
I think the whole thing is a farce and the IDF is attempting a smoke screen on a smokescreen the former smoke screen being the WP smokescreen used to create the second smokescreen. Hypocracy - where does it end! In Jerusalem! As stated in the Old and New Testaments?
Is there really a curse on that region of the world for past sins? I am beginning to think so.

a countries defense force is a tool of the government which in turn is a tool of the people.
when the defense force is acting on its own accord, and using weapons like phosphorus and othe chemical agents it shows that the power has shifted from the people to the government and even more drastically to the defense force itself.
now the defense force can do as it pleases and all in the name of the people.

i agree that the use of chemical weapons is a war crime, but its also a cowards war tactic. if isreal is so tough they should go in and sort their problems out the old way mono e mono.
Girls throw mud. Men throw punches.

My view is this. War is just that. You fight to win. The only thing that should ever matter is, can you destroy your enemy effectively using what ever means you wish, and, if you do will all his friends be able to hurt you if you do. Israel has chosen to no longer put up with world hypocrisy and constant attacks from the Gazans etc. They have decided to destroy the enemy. It doesn't matter what tool one uses to kill in war as the end result is the same. It is one thing to attack the enemy fighter, and still another to attack innocent civillians. But if the enemy fighters hide among the civillians and the civillians let them, then they both suffer the ravages of war which is pain, sufferring, and death. If I were the leader, my enemy would only get one chance to attack me. Then, I would destroy his nation to rubble if I had the power to do so. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Launching rockets by non-uniformed combatants is a war crime too, but you don't seem to get very worked up over that.

You seem to be highly selective in who you criticize.

Actually, your analysis is clearly quite selective. According to Jewish thinking relative to Gaza, there is no government and hence the land is completely lawless. Therefore, the firing of any munitions by any element in Gaza cannot be viewed as a "war crime" because war crimes are those acts committed uner the aegis of state, a condition which by Jewish definitions relative to this conflict do not exist.

Therefore, we have rogue acts of criminal defiance and therefore the wholesale slaughter of non-criminal (civilian) entities is tantamount to collective punishment in an effort to kill off what Israel is defining as "criminal elements".

Israel would have to utilize police actions to take out the rogue elements and no other activities would be justified using the current Jewish logic thrown in our face.

No matter how you want to play the semantic game - the state of Israel is not really a state, but rather a colony of global Jewry, and this colony is clearly guilty of massive crimes against humanity.

The entire colony should be forced to endure crushing retribution for its crimes against all of humanity and its roque supporters across the globe ruthlessles suppressed and forced from any semblance of authority from which the people are forced against their wishes to support this terrorist regime.

Originally posted by spearhead
a countries defense force is a tool of the government which in turn is a tool of the people.
when the defense force is acting on its own accord, and using weapons like phosphorus and othe chemical agents it shows that the power has shifted from the people to the government and even more drastically to the defense force itself.
now the defense force can do as it pleases and all in the name of the people.

i agree that the use of chemical weapons is a war crime, but its also a cowards war tactic. if isreal is so tough they should go in and sort their problems out the old way mono e mono.
Girls throw mud. Men throw punches.

WP does NOT fall under the Chemical Weapon category, nor will it even if you keep reiterating the mantra. It IS legal to use against military targets for screening and incendiary purposes. It may not be used against civilians, and it may not be used for its toxic properties.

reply to post by BlueRaja


Yes it is legal, but ALL the pictures posted in this thread have shown that it was being used against civilians, and for toxic purposes - in other words as a weapon of terror.

The UN and humanitarian organisations complete and total condemnation of Israeli actions makes the position taken by apologists untenable, and completely innapropriate.

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

Yes it is legal, but ALL the pictures posted in this thread have shown that it was being used against civilians, and for toxic purposes - in other words as a weapon of terror.

The UN and humanitarian organisations complete and total condemnation of Israeli actions makes the position taken by apologists untenable, and completely innapropriate.

I haven't seen any pics that would indicate it being used for its toxic fumes in enclosed spaces. As for the identities of those in the photos- we simply don't know the whole picture(no pun intended) from what has been available. We don't know what was going on(or what had just been going on at the locations). Since the Hamas fighters aren't wearing military uniforms, it's impossible to say who the folks are in the pics. I'm not trying to be callous or indifferent to the suffering of unintended victims, but we just don't have access to all the info to make blanket statements.
You also have to remember that you're getting only 1 side of the story. I'm sure that pro-Palestinian/Hamas media sources aren't going to show pictures that aren't emotionally charged, or putting their side in a bad light.