The Heroism Conspiracy

reply to post by SideWynder


Hi Side,

I am sorry so say that he did - and it ruined my life because he came home a shell-shocked man and an abuser. Say no more. But I have forgiven him because it was not his fault - just this war-mad world which I wish would stop making war.

Cheers

reply to post by SideWynder


Washington is a good example... he was a mason... Hero? Plant maybe?

The others? I don't know them story wise... but make an analogy...

You have a firefighter who is constantly risking his life by jumping into fires.... but then you find out that the fires are being deliberately set... and you find out that it is being sanctioned by the highest authority in the fire dept because they like the hero status being brought on by the fires. In this scenario, does the firefighter still retain the status of "hero" when it is found true, that they were staged fires?

There are so many questions surrounding every war. Most have been proven false flag events... How many "heroes" came out of the 9/11 tragedy??? Those heroes are supposedly fighting terrorists... when it becomes "known" that 9/11 was staged will that change the hero status for this group?

I wonder!('')

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


Hi, AllTied,

Basically people get bored - women are usually involved with kids - so men get bored, and start a war for something to do...sounds horrible but I honestly believe this - it is boredom that is killing our planet.

And just look at our teenagers and the boredom issue... leads to a lot of problems!

reply to post by spellbound


Well I really hope that boredom is NOT the cause of all these problems. If this is the case then we have no hope at all. I personally believe that not possible.... I would believe the Matrix theory before believing the boredom one though...

[edit on 4-1-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


OK, I have tried to evade that boredom thing which I also hate.

But ask any kid on their holidays...

Originally posted by TheRandom1

Originally posted by Rasputin13
reply to post by TheRandom1

 

You know, it's this kind of thinking that led to our brave men and women in uniform being spit on and called "baby killers" when they came home from Vietnam. Obviously not every soldier is a hero. I think the word hero is thrown around too often and too liberally when it is not always appropriate. However, I completely disagree with just about everything you said. Just be thankful that the very people you are criticizing have given their lives and limbs so that people like you can make such idiotic statements.

I wonder what the world would have been like after 9/11 if we forgave the terrorists and instead of bombing another country, opening our arms and asking forgiveness for the wrongs we have done and meeting with those who did us wrong and talking about what can be done to make peace.

You've got to be kidding me! Forgive the terrorists??? "You just hijacked four of our airliners and viciously murdered over 3,000 innocent civilians. But, we forgive you! Let's hug!" Thank God that our government and our people do not share such an idiotic sentiment. That kind of weakness only invites more terror and causes more of our enemies to think they can take advantage of us.

I'm not saying that we are perfect or that we are 100% innocent. And I'm not saying the same goes for our troops, either. But to open our arms and embrace the savages who are hell-bent on our demise is completely absurd and downright dangerous. I hate to break it to you, but nothing we did as a people or as a nation made us deserve to be attacked on 9/11. Purposely targeting innocent civilians in the name of religious extremism, or anything for that matter, can never be excused.

I pray that someday you grow up and recognize the evil that we are confronting. And I pray that you and your loved ones are never harmed or killed in an act of terrorism. Because God forbid if that should happen, I would love to see you hug the terrorists responsible and blame yourself.

And not to be mean, but if you're going to make such arrogant comments about our people and our military, then at least learn how to spell the words you use correctly.

So you're saying that because i think it's wrong to kill others and that there are peaceful alternatives to war that I'm the bad guy? That I spit on people? I never sid we should spit on our troops or anyone, but you implied that my ieology of peace and love is what spured the hatred towards the troops after the vietnam war, the spin stops here sir.

I notice youuse the word God a lot, this implies to me that you might be religious, did you know that Jesus taught us to love our enemies? That is where I'm basing most of my thoughts on this from, what Jesus said.

, the people in the middle east (which I dated one and she was anything but a savage, so I take offense to you said) have been fighting each other for thousands of years, to wrongs don't make a right, that's something they don't get, that's something nobody,, including you, does not get. Also, if you never forgive the terrorists, you will die with hate in your heart, do you really want to die hating someone?

Like I said you can't kill an ideology with bullets.


Also, don't attack me attac the issue, personal attacks are one of the first signs someone is losing an arguement, don't lose your arguement before you even start bro.

Also, my keybard doesn't always type what 'I want it too, some keys stick and some don't even type at all, I'm on a crappy laptop.

-Lahara

I can't tell you the extent of your tunnel vision but I CAN tell you your view is rather limited in scope, fuzzy in the clarity of your objectivity focused on your own near sighted opinions and albeit it obvious, you are very fond of your opinions, it is how you arrived at them which is as out of perspective as your assertions for mis-representing the post your were responding to.

You want to talk about "Spin" son?

So you're saying that because i think it's wrong to kill others and that there are peaceful alternatives to war that I'm the bad guy? That I spit on people? I never sid we should spit on our troops or anyone, but you implied that my ieology of peace and love is what spured the hatred towards the troops after the vietnam war, the spin stops here sir.

When ever I SEE anyone on these boards preface their response with "So you're saying that,, [ad straw man here ] " I know I am about to have my original post taken and revised, taken totally out of context if not completely mis quoted. Then answered by them as if the new bastardized version or straw man is what the original post was saying. You do this in your response to the poster but not only do you do that in this case but also you do this in your view of reality.

Example: The poster said and I quote "You know, it's this kind of thinking that led to our brave men and women in uniform being spit on and called "baby killers"

You then, choose the most self-serving and virtuous assessment of how you think others should see you and say the following:

"So you're saying that because I think it's wrong to kill others and that there are peaceful alternatives to war that I'm the bad guy? That I spit on people. "

Now do you know what it is to take responsibility for your statements?

Let us test the theory about people like you and see by asking you to read that again knowing the poster was making a no so shining portrayal of you, do you REALLY think he was talking about your philosophy of peace? Do you REALLY think he was criticizing your “uncanny” ability to have all the peaceful alternatives? YOU did not say you “believed" there are, but simply "THAT" there are, suggesting you know something he does not.

Next do you REALLY think He said that you like to “Spit on people”. I would like to know is it me, or does anyone else see where I am going with this? Frankly, I do not see that he gave that portrayal of you and in fact was correct in saying that it is people with your obsession to think you are speaking from reality offering opinions to persuade others to have the same skewed way of looking at the world as YOU do.

That it is YOU who is the spinner of the kind of talk we saw during the Vietnam War that DID influence those your opinions and sour attitude can effect.

I notice youuse the word God a lot, this implies to me that you might be religious, did you know that Jesus taught us to love our enemies? That is where I'm basing most of my thoughts on this from, what Jesus said.

Sure Jesus told us to love our enemies, even when we have to kill them. Loving your enemy does NOT mean we have to be stupid about it.

EXAMPLE: Someone breaks into your home and threatens to harm you and your family. If you are like most of us, this would be what is known as an "Enemy" and albeit Jesus says to love your enemy, he certainly didn't mean at trhe expense of your loved ones. This is the same logic when an enemy plans to harm our country.

Your view is SO askew it is comical in some of the statements you make you clearly have a problem accepting ANY responsibility for the misfortune you have experienced as seen below:

"Also, you make it seem like I'm saying hateful things about the troops, i'm not, I don't know if you just ran through what I said and never thoguht about any of it, or if you are purposfully trying to paint me as some evil guy who hates people, i dont hate anyone,I don't even hate the doctors that killed my grandma, I don't even hate the woman who drove me into having a mental break down, I don't even hate the drug dealers who wanted to kill me, what good does hate do? None, none whatsoever."

The first paragrapgh of the poster you responded to, you express you are unhappy with his portrayal of you.

Rather than do the right thing and ask for clarification, YOU OFFER TWO scenarios, as excuses we readers shoould see you as "mis understood" and in BOTH, the options you give, have nothing to do with reasons he thinks you come off the way you do and BOTH happen to be the other guys fault and NOT yours. So again you try to escape responsibility for your statements. I have no choice but to conclude this when you fail to quote what others have said verbatim with the same word for word understanding and not some clever comeback dressed up as "So you're saying" etc.

Here again you use this tactic:

The first one you say: I don't know if you just ran through what I said and never thoguht about any of it,

one would expect the next would be the very real possibility that YOU DID say something conveying a self depricating view of you. You however offer the alternative option being the other guys fault AGAIN!

"or if you are purposfully trying to paint me as some evil guy who hates people"

NO YOU SOUND LIKE THE BAD GUY WHEN WHAT YOU SAY OFFERS MORE HEAT,, THAN LIGHT.

I agree that the word Hero is used far too loosely anymore and some of the people I have seen called Hero are NOT hero's but just happen to be unique or just plane undeserving of it such as the Indian Girl who lived in Arizona named Piestewa, forgive the spelling I had a hard time saying it much less spelling it. They renamed Squaw Peak, a land mark in AZ to Peistewa peak and have called her a hero.

Why? Because she and her comrades got lost and that got her killed?

No but she was unique for being the first American Indian a woman to die in the line of duty in war. Hero? NO. Asterisk noted for history yes. Worthy of renaming a landmark for her? heh NOPE but they did anyway.

You see you can't kill an ideology with bullets, that is what terrorism is, you can kill ideology with a countering ideology though

No you CAN kill an Ideology and we had seen many holding a tyrannical Ideology or worldview do just that because the opinion of another group’s ideology is usually just as opinionated and the arguments never cease.

We see that on these boards all the time. Albeit ATS Motto is to deny ignorance but without Ignorance, none of us would be here, correcting the ignorance of those who are trying to correct what they see as our own and arguments start which is why they have rules because ATS is disingenuous that way.

This place not only offers a platform for ignorance, the idea that any is denied is a SLOGAN! Behind EVERY argument is someone's ignorance and without that, this place has no one to argue with and no reason for ever being created. This is nothing but a forum of wannabe authors, writers, intelligent looking addicted to conflict. In most cases, what they display is a willingness to argue because of their argumentative nature but NOT their ABILITY to argue.


I think you have done a disservice disparaging the Military and saying they are NOT serving the Country by serving the Government is silly when it is incumbent on Government to defend the country.

So they are, in fact, serving the country and how do the rest of us learn to appreciate this? When ever we are in trouble of losing our freedom by breaking the law,, a Lawyer is summoned when a Felon needs a friend.

When it is our Country and its freedom threatened either directly or indirectly, America will be the land of the free only so long as it's the home of the brave.

Well,, a Soldier is somone who is summoned,,


when our Country and common men


Need a Hero.





[edit on 4-1-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


Also, teens here are bored out of their minds, so they do dangerous stuff and become pests. Tell me how that is different for you.

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


I understand what you are trying to say, and to answer your analogy, If that individual fireman has no knowledge that the fires were being prposefully set and was not involved in them being set, then I do not belive it diminishes his actions,

because running into a burning building to save a life at the risk of your own is the same no matter how it caught fire..

now if the fireman himself started the blaze with the intention of running into it to look like a hero, that is when you could say it was unjustified..

reply to post by spellbound


I am going to go out on a limb here, and say that I believe that 99% of the people of this World would feel the same way about war as you..

Especially the soldiers who have and are fighting them..
I am the youngest out of 16, My father fought in WWII, and 4 of my brothers saw combat in Korea,or Vietnamn, I myself have been in combat, in one "small" conflict, and one "war"

I have seen 2 of my brothers return home as your father did, My father my other 2 brothers, and myself, although not untouched by our experiences, have been able to lead a "normal" life..

Although I can say we all still have our "demons" to face to this day..

And as a side note, although all 6 of us have enough "medals" and "Honors" to cover a decent sized wall in the house, I can say unequvicably that not one of us truly considers ourselves "Heros"..

Not to sound "pompus" And hopefully I did not..

[edit on 4-1-2009 by SideWynder]

reply to post by SideWynder

because running into a burning building to save a life at the risk of your own is the same no matter how it caught fire..

Now remember that these firefighters are also trained for this.... so everytime they save someone they are not heroes....

It's their job to save lives. It's their job to put out fires.... but these lives they save are being put into jeopardy on purpose...

So, in this scenario I believe we lose the hero status..... Closely applies to the military aspect too.... they are highly trained... do things usually without thinking its so automatic.

If you are brainwashed, I mean trained to be a soldier and you save someone, are you a hero... A hero has little concern for self.... is this possible if your brain... if your trained to act before thinking???

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether

It's their job to save lives. It's their job to put out fires.... but these lives they save are being put into jeopardy on purpose...

No clue to what you are trying to say here....

So, in this scenario I believe we lose the hero status..... Closely applies to the military aspect too.... they are highly trained... do things usually without thinking its so automatic.

So far from any truth I know. You suggest all this is some automatic response with no thought or feeling involved. What planet do you come from?

If you are brainwashed, I mean trained to be a soldier and you save someone, are you a hero... A hero has little concern for self.... is this possible if your brain... if your trained to act before thinking???

So where were you brainwashed...I mean educated...oh no, I mean trained...

Did you spend four or more years listening to some fanatically ultra liberal professor(s) who hasn’t seen the real world outside the campus for 25 years? Did you sit there soaking up his drivel in a dazed state year after year without ever thinking that just maybe he/they were full of crap?

Trained people in many professions are heroes everyday to someone. If someone saves my ass whether they are a cop, doctor, fireman, military person. or someone walking down the street they are a hero to me.

I'm sorry they don't pass your stink test as to what a hero is. I'm sure the day that someone saves your life you will change you views.


[edit on 4-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by SideWynder

 

because running into a burning building to save a life at the risk of your own is the same no matter how it caught fire..

Now remember that these firefighters are also trained for this.... so everytime they save someone they are not heroes....

It's their job to save lives. It's their job to put out fires.... but these lives they save are being put into jeopardy on purpose...

So, in this scenario I believe we lose the hero status..... Closely applies to the military aspect too.... they are highly trained... do things usually without thinking its so automatic.

If you are brainwashed, I mean trained to be a soldier and you save someone, are you a hero... A hero has little concern for self.... is this possible if your brain... if your trained to act before thinking???

I see your point, and to reiterate an earlier point of mine I still believe that it is all perspective..

IE, the fireman himself, may be trained(also brainwashed?) to do what he does, so therefore does not consider himself a hero, just another "joe" doing his job.

But to the person he saves, and thier familly I'm am quite sure he would be considered a hero..

I can also understand your interchanging of the terms "brainwashing" and "training".. As you are correct in part, that extensive training is somewhat akin to brainwashing. Albeit though, not always in a nefarious or detrimental way..

I would also like to possibly put in that I believe that we are all subject to some form of "brainwashing" at some point in our lives. be it job related or through "educational institutes" or by even friends or familly..

And I would like to thank you for the opportunity for this civil discussion..
If on occasion I sound terse or otherwise rude, please let me know, for at times I find it difficult to articulate my opinions in writing without coming across in a less than amicable way..

[edit on 4-1-2009 by SideWynder]

reply to post by Xtrozero


My reference was to a previous post that suggested a scenario... if you read back you will see it....

as to my view of four years of whatever? I was in the military for 26yrs and am now legally sane... Anyone willing to stay in and believe they are fighting for freedom when they follow leaders such as bush are brainwashed. My view..

Your example proves the point. Heroes are too abundant. Everyone can't be a hero. I gave blood, I'm a hero. We've lowered our standards and made it a common practice for everyday occurrences to be labeled as heroic.

These firefighters, like military soldiers, train to perform tasks without thinking. They become automatic. I was on the fireteam on many stations and the training reinforces automatic actions. What you find difficult to fathom as abilities is drilled into these people day after day. It becomes a normal daily task. Because they don't have to think of it, much like the Marine who can strip down his rifle in the dark, he can now concentrate on other things going on within his area. You as the untrained firefighter would see this as heroic. Not me.. I see that as a well trained and probably "deservedly' proud firefighter.


[edit on 4-1-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


As you are former military, then you should know first hand that most (as always there are exceptions) soldiers do not consider themselves "heros" especially for just "putting on the uniform"

Also that the term "hero" as used in the military is usually a derogitory term..

I also agree with you that the term hero has been "thrown" around most undeservedly in recent years..

Again though, I am sticking to my guns.. that I still believe Heroism depends on your perception...or should I say perspective?

[edit on 4-1-2009 by SideWynder]

reply to post by TheRandom1


Sorry if this offends , but your welcome , I say this for the men who died fighting for the rights you are exercising right now . I served under the Idea that in order to keep the rights I enjoy I should give something back . My grandfather came to the united states from Germany during the reconstruction between ww1 and ww2 . Became a naturalized citizen and felt that in return for the freedom and life that america offered he should protect it . As did my Father and myself. So if you like to talk freely Thank A real Soldier. Not the glory hound Ramboes . A true soldier prays that he never has to use his weapon . A real soldier prays for peace more so than anyone else. Because it is his or her life on the line but are willing to sacrafice their life for their familys rights and way of life. I did not like killing , did not think myself a hero when I fought and got wounded. I felt like I was paying for my rights afforded to me by the constitution I swore to protect. The one with the freedom of speech which you are exercising right now. So off the soap box for me sorry but you are welcome.

[edit on 1/4/2009 by BlackKnight7365]

S & F!

Best post I have read in a while.

The soldiers are not fighting for the constitution. They are fighting to feed their families. Their commander in chief does not even acknowledge the constitution, so how can you say the soldiers are fighting for the constitution?

They are fighting for oil profits and Israel.

reply to post by BlackKnight7365


I couldn't agree with you LESS.... This is utter nonsense.

Nowhere near the thought process of a military person. Sure, they don't want to fight but they will when ordered to do so. Unless its evident that the order could be something to have classified as a war criminal, like what is happening now.

These soldiers are all excited about the neat equipment and fire power they have. Excited over weapons... part of the brainwashing that they put us through. I believe that is what the OP is saying. I have to agree with it. They obviously did their homework and asked valid people their feelings. That's what I saw in 26yrs.

And although you believe your fighting for your constitution, your actually fighting for the NWO plan. You can't actually believe that your military is doing its job by cracking civilian heads with riot battons. If you believe this then that is part of your brainwashing. It's a never ending circle.....

reply to post by capgrup

Your argument is an emotional non sequitur typical of war apologists.

The mindset of a soldier is independent and distinct from the motivation of the government that sends them into the hell of war. Your definition of hero is simply signing up or getting drafted, and then not deserting. That's a watered down definition of hero, but typical of Right wing propaganda which seeks to insulate people from their otherwise functioning brains.

What if the motives of the administration which sends our young to war are corrupt? Are the soldiers heros? Or victim/dupes? Plenty of veterans believe the latter.


But such thoughts are considered deleterious to the current power structure, thus pap about tombstones is resorted to by those defending the State, who usually are also victims, albeit unknowingly.

Meanwhile, the payed representatives of the Ultra Rich (the Bush/Cheney ilk) avoid bullets like the Plague, even as they aggressively and mendaciously send our beautiful young people into Hell.

reply to post by AllTiedTogether


your opinion and thanks for telling me how a Military person thinks < guess your service experience is ???? Have you ever been in The Military ? or is it assumption ? I lived it and sure seem to have a different concept of it but who knows. Maybe i just spent 10 years working with these children who just want the toys and no war crimes ??? I do believe I disagree with you .

reply to post by BlackKnight7365


Actually BlackKnight, AllTiedTogether stated he did serve in the military for 26 years.. Now I am not saying that I agree with his opinions about this, But I will Believe that with that much time in, He has probably formed his opinions through experience.

And I will grant you, that You yourself having been in the military, Just as I, we have had possibly slightly differing experiences that have had an impact on our opinions as well..

As I have stated earlier, this subject is not one that can be "proved" because it relies too much on perceptions, and perspectives.. IE, I don't believe there is any "right" or "Wrong" answers to this..

But I do find it "enlightening" to see some of the perspectives coming from younger, and older, members as well as vets, and those who have not served..

[edit on 5-1-2009 by SideWynder]