What makes you think God has limits?

Originally posted by prevenge
you're skeptical to a fault.
-

more logical ^_^

if god exists outside the universe he cant in anyway interfer inside the universe

as soon as he enters it or trys to meddle with it he becomes bound by our physical laws preventing him from being all powerful and doing what he does

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

God didn't lie, he sent wicked spirits who live on lies.
They are for judgement.

"O Lord, ***thou*** has deceived me..."

THOU = You

I am not saying G-d was or was not justified in doing so. I admit to thinking differently than the G-d of the bible. I DON'T understand these things and I have given up trying to understand it.

What bothers me more about G-d doing these things that I can't help but call into question is the utter nonsense and excuses that followers come up with to explain them away.

I am more inclined to listen to someone talk about G-d to me that will admit they don't understand the ways of G-d and that yes, if these things that He did in the bible were carried out or done by another human, it would be found unacceptable.

We know that G-d, as he declared himself in the bible, was both evil and good and I wonder if he does this for the purposes of both buffering people to understand the difference of right and wrong, good and evil, and having patience/tolerance with our fellow men, and then also to see who will blindly follow someone and make excuses for them regardless of the acts and/or deception he or she commits/displays.

I don't understand the behaviour of G-d unless it is to carry out the above two missions with us; but even then, I have no way of knowing if that is his intent or not. That is why instead of making excuses for him (which He does NOT need us to do), I will say, I DON'T KNOW AND YES, IT IS VERY ODD AND QUITE UNNERVING.

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by justamomma

 

God didn't lie, he sent wicked spirits who live on lies.
They are for judgement.

but he made them knowing that is what they will do which must be his will

so god created liars to spread a lie, making him responsible for the lie

so god is a creator of falsehood, also known as a liar

No, God didn't create 'liars'. He created perfect sons, then the devil became PROUD and sin was found in him.(He wanted to BE God.) He cast 1/3rd of the angels down with him, through enticement.
God gives us our desires, sometimes, even if that may be to bring us evil and cause us to return to Him.
Like the old saying goes; "Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."
'Strong delusion' is just one of those lies we may get.(I hope not!)
Some people want pretty lies rather than the ugly TRUTH.
When you reject the truth, all that is left is a lie!

Originally posted by justamomma
..."O Lord, ***thou*** has deceived me..."

THOU = You
...

Way to take a quote out of context! All right! Do it some more!

When the bible reports on something a person said, it is accurate, insofar as what the person actually said. That doesn't make it true.

Think of a National Enquirer headline such as this: "Woman says 'My newborn is a love child with Elvis' " Was the reporter accurate in his quote? Yes. Was the quote itself true? No. Same thing here.

Look at what happened right before the prophet says your quote above:

Jeremiah 20

1Now Pashur the son of Immer the priest, who was also chief governor in the house of the LORD, heard that Jeremiah prophesied these things.

2Then Pashur smote Jeremiah the prophet, and put him in the stocks that were in the high gate of Benjamin, which was by the house of the LORD.

3And it came to pass on the morrow, that Pashur brought forth Jeremiah out of the stocks. Then said Jeremiah unto him, The LORD hath not called thy name Pashur, but Magormissabib.

4For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.

5Moreover I will deliver all the strength of this city, and all the labours thereof, and all the precious things thereof, and all the treasures of the kings of Judah will I give into the hand of their enemies, which shall spoil them, and take them, and carry them to Babylon.

6And thou, Pashur, and all that dwell in thine house shall go into captivity: and thou shalt come to Babylon, and there thou shalt die, and shalt be buried there, thou, and all thy friends, to whom thou hast prophesied lies.

7O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

8For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily.

9Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

10For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.

11But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.

12But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

13Sing unto the LORD, praise ye the LORD: for he hath delivered the soul of the poor from the hand of evildoers.

14Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.

15Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.

16And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;

17Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

18Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

See it? Jeremiah thinks that God lied to him, because of all the evil things that the lying men were allowed to do. Just because JEREMIAH thought God lied to him, doesn't mean God really did lie to him.

Originally posted by Clearskies

No, God didn't create 'liars'. He created perfect sons, then the devil became PROUD and sin was found in him.(He wanted to BE God.) He cast 1/3rd of the angels down with him, through enticement.
God gives us our desires, sometimes, even if that may be to bring us evil and cause us to return to Him.
Like the old saying goes; "Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."

but he made the devil and as he knows everything that will ever happen

he knew exactly what the devil, would do before he created him

so the devil is part of gods plans god created the devil to spread a lie(carry out part of gods plan)

god created the iar to spread it

god created the lie to be spread

god lies

[edit on 1/12/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by sir_chancealot



I do see what you are saying. It does not change the fact that G-d can get around His personal "I don't lie" declaration and therefore, He still technically doesn't have *that* particular limitation.

As for the poster who said that ppl turned away from the truth and that is why he sent the lying spirits and strong delusions. This just seems like silly reasoning to me.

If someone doesn't want to face the truth, then they won't. Why make it a point to guarantee that they stay away from the truth they don't want to see at a particular time? If someone is already turned away from the truth, why the need for the extra lies and delusions? This explanation makes G-d sound petty and much like a little child who didn't get His way.


I think one of the most harmful things followers of G-d do is try to use human rationalizations to explain G-d. Isn't that in a sense bringing G-d down to your level? If His ways aren't your ways, then why use *your* ways to try and explain His ways to other people?

I have a better question for the OP:

What makes you think God exists?

reply to post by jakyll

God cannot lie.

God is everything, not an entity. God is a matrix or a construct that is conscious.

A rock is a rock. It will always be a rock. It can be painted, but then it is a painted rock. A rock may become a pebble, and then it is a pebble.

There are no lies.

A man can have a daughter, and say he has a son to another man. Now the other man thinks he has a son. Though, he has a daughter, and has painted the situation in that momentary conversation with the other man to make it seem like he has a son. A painted rock.

It's funny how people so often jump to conclusions.

God cannot lie. Why? Because it says so in the Bible. Maybe the Bible isn't written by God.

God cannot interfere with this Universe. Why? Because he would be bound by the laws of Physics. Which laws might they be? The laws we believed existed in the past, the current laws or the laws that science hasn't discovered yet which will exist at some point in the future? He is God! He can do anything, including violate the current version of the laws of physics, at will.

As a poster alluded to earlier, just because we can't understand how, why, when or where God chooses to act, is no reason to jump to the conclusion that we somehow can prove some aspect of his actions or behaviour. Why? Because WE, not God, are limited by OUR own logic.

reply to post by speaker


you really should take a look at www.abovetopsecret.com...'

ill warn ya its 55 pages long so far

god can not be all powerful, if he were he becomes a paradox and disappears in a cloud of illogic while he tries to fix the problem

no ones been able to solve the paradox without ignoring it and pretending it isnt one so far

reply to post by noobfun


You sound like you're using more of that flawed human logic again.

Originally posted by speaker
It's funny how people so often jump to conclusions.

God cannot lie. Why? Because it says so in the Bible. Maybe the Bible isn't written by God.

God cannot interfere with this Universe. Why? Because he would be bound by the laws of Physics. Which laws might they be? The laws we believed existed in the past, the current laws or the laws that science hasn't discovered yet which will exist at some point in the future? He is God! He can do anything, including violate the current version of the laws of physics, at will.

As a poster alluded to earlier, just because we can't understand how, why, when or where God chooses to act, is no reason to jump to the conclusion that we somehow can prove some aspect of his actions or behaviour. Why? Because WE, not God, are limited by OUR own logic.

Again, this is all assuming that God exists, which there is no evidence for.

Just in case you'd forgotten.

Originally posted by speaker
reply to post by noobfun

 

You sound like you're using more of that flawed human logic again.

were using purley biblical scripture to set our boundaries and those of god

the logic is perfect

and you sound like your using none just blind acceptance rather then studying and exploring just what it is you believe

I don't think that God has limits, I don't think he exists.

The overwhelming weight of evidence lies on the side of science; the reasonable status quo is that a god or gods doesn't exist, because the universe shows no evidence of the divine or intellligent creation. Thus the burden of proof to disprove the status quo lies with those who believe in a god or gods and they need rather more than a few books written millenia ago to prove that!

reply to post by noobfun

This thread we're in right now reads "What makes you think God has limits?", not "What makes you think the Christian God has limits?".

Literalism = a fools game

Originally posted by Reddupo

This thread we're in right now reads "What makes you think God has limits?", not "What makes you think the Christian God has limits?".

then let us play a game

does god give you free will?

is god all powerful?

can god create an equally powerful god that isnt under his control(kind of an equally powered rival, also remeber he doesnt have to do it that would be silly only does he have the power to do it)?

is god all knowing?

Who is God? What is God? How can you describe God without knowing every aspect of Him? When we try to put God into words, we often end up creating God in our own image. The God of my understanding is whatever I need Him to be at that time. I say ‘my understanding’ because I have no way of completely knowing an infinite being with my finite heart mind and spirit.

God is not a member of any particular church or organization. God is and isn’t and is so much more. God reveals Himself to us in the capacity in which we need. Any kind of description puts limits on who and what God is.

If God has no limits then God is everything.

If God is everything then every single instance of manifested existence is quantifiable proof of God.

Originally posted by noobfun
then let us play a game

does god give you free will? - In a sense. We are all connected, all one. I'm sure you've heard that before. Much like the butterfly effect, my actions affect the fate of everyone to some degree (and in many cases the degree of effect can get exponentially, infinitesimally, tiny, of course). Likewise, everyone around me effects my fate. All of us combined as an individual, as one, we have free will because that is the only will that exists. Broken up and divided, single humans as we experience in the purely physical world, yes, our collective free will almost in a way seems like it constricts us thinking on that level, but we are still free - In the end our goals and dreams are not compromised, because we are all working towards the same thing.

is god all powerful? - All power that exists is sourced from God, the person who exercised that power, is sourced from God. The reaction of anything to that act of power, is sourced from God. God is all. All is God. He is no outside observer, he is the act of the observation. and what is being observed.

can god create an equally powerful god that isnt under his control(kind of an equally powered rival, also remeber he doesnt have to do it that would be silly only does he have the power to do it)? - Yes, and then they would duel it out with lightsabers...God is not a really big person with superpowers. Think of every object in existence, every dimension, every infinitely-dividable moment in time, combined with the construct of probability and syncronicity. This fabric, is woven from the consciousness of every being combined. It is a living breathing fabric of everything. It is all, there is nothing outside of it, because it is everything. Noting watches it, anything that watches it is a part of it. This blanket, this matrix, this underpinning, this infinity....If it "made a rival" (whatever that means in this context), the "rival" would just be another part of everything, another part of God.

is god all knowing? - Everything that is, is.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by Reddupo]

reply to post by SamuraiDrifter


Let's look at the creation story in the Bible.

God created the earth. It exists and can be verified.
God created the day & the night. They exist and can be verified.
God created the seas and the land. They exist and can be verified.
God created the plants and the animals. They exist and can be verified.
God created us. We exist and can be verified.

In fact, as ridiculous as that story is, I can't find one thing about it that can be disputed. Can you?

You ask "Where is the evidence?" My answer is, "What is your alternative, and where is the evidence of that?" Now make sure that your "evidence" can not be explained by any other alternative than the one you propose, otherwise it falls into the same category as the ridiculous creation story in the bible.