Pakistan may relocate 100,000 army personnel to border

reply to post by mybigunit


You bet..
Who? Why? How to respond? How does this change life? the whole works..

I would say that these most recent developments will only increase the timeline for provokation even more.

Good news for the Indians is that at least the media is all over this one quickly.
Now the evil bastards will have to strike again, and quickly, because the fear tactics aren't working.

Breaking Breaking!!!

This just in on local news channels..
1)Emergency Cabinet Meetings for the last 24 hours to decide next steps.
2)Response Actions to be made public in the the next 24-48 hours.
3)Immediate probable casualties:

a)End of the cross border Kashmir LoC ceasefire agreement that was signed in 2003 post the last major military build up/near-war situation.

b)btw the Home Minister Shivraj Patil has just tendered his resignation..
Heads rolling..

Air and rail links may be severed. Diplomatic Missions will remain


This is major.. no official confirmation but local channels do have sources..

Resignation

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
a)End of the cross border Kashmir LoC ceasefire agreement that was signed in 2003 post the last major military build up/near-war situation.

Hope this situation settles down as I can see neither backing down, I believe we are seriously on the brink of the first nuclear war if the American response to 9/11 is anything to go by.

reply to post by mybigunit


I'm know there is more to the U.S. Pakistan relationship. When the Russians were in Afghanistan in the 80's how do you think the CIA helped Bin laden get weapons into Afghanistan to fight the Russians? Through Pakistan. The U.S. and Pakistan have been shaky Allies since then.

But after 911 the government knew that Pakistan didn't have control over the areas that share a border with Afghanistan. the U.S. government also knew if they couldn't close up the border Al queda would slip out the "backdoor" and cross the border into Pakistan, and into the tribal regions. a virtual safe haven where they could blend in.

The U.S. only gave Pakistan Money once Musharraf started cracking down on the tribal areas. plus we were using Pakistani air space for the navy planes to have access to Afghanistan. another reason the U.S. Government gave Pakistan money. to buy the use of airspace. except instead of calling it a bribe they called it aid to the people of Pakistan.

Remember right after 911 Pakistan was against doing anything to the Taliban and Al Queda. Why is that? Maybe because Al Queda was and is sponsored By the CIA and the Pakistanis. Musharraf was afraid if he took a stance against the Taliban and AlQueda he wouldn't be in power for very long after wards. its no secret that Musharraf's life was constantly in danger. there were assassination attempts almost daily against him.

Then all of the sudden Musharraf started cracking down in the tribal regions. Because he was backed into a corner by Bush. Then once he followed orders his bank account got fatter.

We Gave Irag money and weapons right up until we invaded them in 91 so why does it surprise you that Bush Jr. wouldn't do the same with Pakistan?

Anyway back on topic:

With all the news stories coming out pointing the finger at Pakistan and saying they are responsible only means 1 thing. India more than likely has proof they were behind it and they will attack when they are 100% sure the evidence backs them up. Get ready its going to be a bumpy ride when it happens and we see which countries will side with how on this one.

Breaking:

REUTERS: India to increase border security to "war level"

Please STOP Posting this crap about Kashmir here !
All this Indian's terrorising Kashmir is not true. How do i know ? Simple, my friend is sitting along with me who is a Kashmiri. There have been some cases about the Indians being involved in the past and that's where it all stops. Do you people even know that the Pakistani's come here dressed in the uniform's of the Indian Military people ? Yes you read it right. All this is a plot by some of their agencies to gain the support of the people of Kashmir by showing them a false picture about the Indians. If any of you dont believe this then personally ask some people from Kashmir who know the real truth. Also the media is just making a big picture from a small picture. Just could not bear this so had to post.
And no offence meant towards anyone.

Peace.

reply to post by chips


I've started a military scenarios discussion thread here for any who would like to discuss military scenarios.

Note that this thread is NOT for war mongers and jingoistic arm chair general sentiments etc. This is an attempt for a pure unbiased assessment of the current situation.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

a)End of the cross border Kashmir LoC ceasefire agreement that was signed in 2003 post the last major military build up/near-war situation.

I suppose it was only a matter of time... www.zeenews.com...

Looks like the tensions are ratcheting up as we speak.

The Indian home affairs minister has been particularly combative.

We all think that pakistan is responsible...but are they really?
Im not even sure on this one. I bet alot of you didnt know that the mumbai "terror chief" was killed in these attacks.....
and he was under investigation for involvement in the other terrorist bombings in India (who they blamed on pakistan like allways), but it was proven to be carried out by Hindu nationalists.

Its weird how political powers try to twist and sway our minds. Think independantly, i urge all of you.

Less than 200 are said to be dead ...and its seen as 1 of the biggest terror attacks to ever have taken place (the media certainly reported on it like it was e.g. sky news non stop).
But no1 ever mentioned the 250,000 sikhs massacered in 1984 anti sikh riots, by extremist hindu terrorists....
That was the biggest terror act in history, second only to the jewish genocide by the nazis.
Hindutva/rss is a major power which we need to expose and seek to dismantle.

The Indian Commandos were pathetic... they never even had any proper protective equipment and they dare compare themselves to the British SAS or the american DELTA force LOL. They went in with what looked like scarfd wrapped around their faces.
They dont even have equipment such as thermal viewers which could of easily identified who many terrorists were inside and how many hostages.

Pakistan has been used in the war on terror (bush administration). IT has no further use now to america. Everyone knows Pakistan recieves /trains terrorists throught its afghan/pakistan border. Its a well known fact. They have an area called the wfbd or summin where they train... and no police or military even bother stepping in there due to fear and agreement. Its run by tribal warlords.
SO even when american knew pakistan was harbouring./training terrorists.. they still kept it cool with them due to needing their help in other affairs. but now they are no longer needed. Its time to deal with them appropriately.

Everyone knows that BRitish muslims go to pakistan and recieve training for terrorism. Even in the 7/7 london attacks the terrorists said this. The various attacks on india have come from militants trained in pakistan camps.
So its time to close these camps down for good. Only thing is that there may be alot of innocent bloodshed in the process. But Pakistan Govt holds accountability partly for that, for not closing down their camps.

FInally i hate all this jihad extremists killing innocent people. For gods sake, if they want revenge , then kill the person responsible for inflicting the pain on them. e.g. a military general, or a prime minister. Why kill a mass of innocents? what friggin cowards. Islamic Jihadis are the biggest disgrace to humanity , and even their god Allah would be ashamed of such people killing his creation senseleslly.

We'll see what happens.

Now the news channels are relaying info that amounts to the following:


Emergency meetings will assess information and make informed decisions based on that.

Pakistan has, as of this moment, not been accused and it is not been given a clean chit either.

Information collected will be presented to the ISI representative, demands will be made and his responses will be heard.

There is no immediate decision to withdraw from the ceasefire agreement or increase troop concentrations on the Indian side.

Advisory to all media channels to refrain from making statements of international significance, lest they be premature.

Originally posted by gmann195
We all think that pakistan is responsible...but are they really?
Im not even sure on this one. I bet alot of you didnt know that the mumbai "terror chief" was killed in these attacks.....
and he was under investigation for involvement in the other terrorist bombings in India (who they blamed on pakistan like allways), but it was proven to be carried out by Hindu nationalists.

I'm afraid you've got that all wrong and most of us do know the right story and its like this..

He (The Anti Terror Squad Chief) was not under investigation, he was LEADING the investigation that was NOT blamed on Pakistan, but on a right wing hindutva group; right from the onset..

Lets be a little responsible when we put things from our chaotic minds into final print..

Maybe this guy is on to something.

It sounds like he has lost all his marbles but when you look at the OPs topic it might make sense.

Usually when a country puts an army at it border, the government will say that they are doing it for "protection," and when the country on the other side reacts violently, the world will see the "aggressor," in this case it will be India, as the bad guy.

However, this is Pakistan, Western nations do not trust the Middle East at all because of religious and other cultural differences. So Pakistan might receive retaliation from Western nations.

Originally posted by die_another_day
Usually when a country puts an army at it border, the government will say that they are doing it for "protection," and when the country on the other side reacts violently, the world will see the "aggressor," in this case it will be India, as the bad guy.

However, this is Pakistan, Western nations do not trust the Middle East at all because of religious and other cultural differences. So Pakistan might receive retaliation from Western nations.

Here's my take:

India HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.
US HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.
Russia HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.
Afghanistan Northern Alliance HATES Pakistan because ?
UK HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.
Europe HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.
Arab countries (people and government) HATE Pakistan because they are Pakistan.
Pakistanis HATE Pakistan Government because they are a sell out.

China has a BUSINESS relationship with Pakistan

So, overall it seems like a massive gang-up on Pakistan and Pakistan doesn't have a friend in the world...

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Jinni]

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Jinni]

India HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.

Or maybe because there is undeniable proof that it sponsors cross border terrorism? Not yet ascertained in this Mumbai case but, irrefutable links have been made in the past.

US HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.

I do not wish to comment of the the love-hate affair between the US and Pakistan over the last 50 years.. It is quite a roller coaster there and god knows what the current emotion is..

Russia HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.

Not really.. but maybe because Pakistan helped kick them out of Afghanistan
in the 80s.. some old scores to settle maybe? Also traditionally Russia has been an Indian Ally vis-a-vis Indopak relations.

Afghanistan Northern Alliance HATES Pakistan because ?

Because Pakistan supported the Taliban during and after its rise circa 1995 that drove the NA to the North, North Eastern regions of Afghanistan where they were kept 'alive' as a movement by Russian and Indian interests in the form of funding and money. Ironically US association with the NA is only recent.. post 9/11.. NA is actually a collection of the govt. that the Soviets installed in Afghanistan before they left.. Google 'Najibullah'..

UK HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.

Or because Pakistan has been the breeding ground for every major terror attack (executed or foiled) in the UK in the last 5 years?

Europe HATES Pakistan because they are Muslim and a Nuclear power.

Not true.. France, Sweden and many other nations maintain deep ties with Pakistan on economic, military and social levels.

Arab countries (people and government) HATE Pakistan because they are Pakistan.

Not the Sunni ones.. And Iran has warmed up to Pakistan in the recent past as well..

China has a BUSINESS relationship with Pakistan

And other strategic relations too.. Its quite obvious that China props up Pakistan in order to pin down India in a pincer geo-strategy, so that China is left relatively unchallenged in Asia as a regional/golbal power.

Ironically If India and Pakistan has not separated, China would have a MAJOR rival on its hands right now..
Makes me smile when I think about the possibilities of a non-partitioned Indian Subcontinent. It would have been a world power today.. But the idiots that live there choose to be consumed by their 'local' issues of religion and ideology.. fools..
So, overall it seems like a massive gang-up on Pakistan and Pakistan doesn't have a friend in the world...


You know jinni.. I have responded to many of your posts on many threads here, and posed questions to you on them.. but you choose to just move on elsewhere w/o returning the favour
Am I wasting my time here with you? Let me know

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

reply to post by Daedalus3


There has also been a history of Indian RAW agents (and accusations) that they are behind most\all terrorist bombing actions in Pakistan. Your view is subjective.

There is no love relationship between Pakistan and US. US used Pakistan to stop Russia. Simple as that. US always hated Pakistan and still do. That's my point and I think it better reflects reality.

Russion relationship is not as simple as you think. There are world governments with common interests and one of those is to end these Islamic states. Russia's terrorism of Chechnya is proof of that.

I know why NA hates Pakistan, thanks for elaborating.

If 9/11 was an inside job (which now seems to be the case given overwhelming evidence from worldwide) then who are the actual terrorists? AlCIAda do like to hang out in Pakistan though... Some kids are easily brainwashed with some candy.

Europe hates Pakistan. Military ties are there just to make money nothing else. Proof of this will be if and when Pakistan is attacked. None of these European countries have EVER come to the defence of Pakistan either diplomatically or otherwise. It's not part of the EU policy.

Arab governments are basically US puppets so they DO hate Pakistan. Arab people whether sunni\shia don't like Pakistani's because they have overwhelming pride for some reason. Strange I know...

You will notice that China NEVER stands up WITH Pakistan when the under pressure politically and or militarily. Pakistan is China's disposable pawn and not even that... For example, China have NOT built up it's forces on the border with India given the India has raised it's security level to War Level. No pressure at all. China is a giant all by itself and will watch Pakistan get mauled and brutalised. Mark my words...

I totally agree that Pakistan and India should have been ONE but the reality is that Muslims were being persecuted for being Muslims and it became necessary to build the partition. I love Ghandi for his dream I love Jinnah for his realism.

Many apologies for not responding to you. It wasn't intentional.

good.. finally a response!!

There has also been a history of Indian RAW agents (and accusations) that they are behind most\all terrorist bombing actions in Pakistan. Your view is subjective.

Yes well we are all willing to look at that evidence.. Anybody engaging in cross border terrorism should be held accountable. And it suffices to say that
no major ambitious country has its hands clean.
We need to look at everything on a case-to-case basis..
Waiting for your sources on that..

There is no love relationship between Pakistan and US. US used Pakistan to stop Russia. Simple as that. US always hated Pakistan and still do. That's my point and I think it better reflects reality.

No they do not.. w/o US assistance (military, economic etc) Pakistan would have collapsed due to various factors decades ago.. All relationships have underlaying strategic objectives.. please grow up..no country helps another because they 'LOVE' each other unconditionally..

Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally and has been for the last 30-40 years..

Russion relationship is not as simple as you think. There are world governments with common interests and one of those is to end these Islamic states. Russia's terrorism of Chechnya is proof of that.

So any state that fights a Islamic backed separatist movement automatically hates muslims?
C'mon man!! What are you saying?!

I know why NA hates Pakistan, thanks for elaborating.

welcome.. anytime..

If 9/11 was an inside job (which now seems to be the case given overwhelming evidence from worldwide) then who are the actual terrorists? AlCIAda do like to hang out in Pakistan though... Some kids are easily brainwashed with some candy.

And conspiracy theories and websites that support them may be an easy way
to hide behind the fact that 'everything bad happening is due to super sinister powers in 1st world countries'.. maybe its just a little more simple than that.. really..

Europe hates Pakistan. Military ties are there just to make money nothing else. Proof of this will be if and when Pakistan is attacked. None of these European countries have EVER come to the defense of Pakistan either diplomatically or otherwise. It's not part of the EU policy.

I think your core definition of love/hate is a little murky here.. There is NO undiluted love per say between ANY nation.. Its all about common interests and partnerships around that..

Arab governments are basically US puppets so they DO hate Pakistan. Arab people whether sunni\shia don't like Pakistani's because they have overwhelming pride for some reason. Strange I know...

Well you are introducing me/us to a new facet that I was unaware..

You will notice that China NEVER stands up WITH Pakistan when the under pressure politically and or militarily. Pakistan is China's disposable pawn and not even that... For example, China have NOT built up it's forces on the border with India given the India has raised it's security level to War Level. No pressure at all. China is a giant all by itself and will watch Pakistan get mauled and brutalised. Mark my words...

Maybe they're not such good strategic allies afterall?

I totally agree that Pakistan and India should have been ONE but the reality is that Muslims were being persecuted for being Muslims and it became necessary to build the partition. I love Ghandi for his dream I love Jinnah for his realism.

Muslims were being persecuted in British ruled India? By the British? By the hindus? I am confused..

And why did not all muslims migrate then? Why do we have a 2-300 million muslims in India today, of which an overwhelming majority are patriotic to the secular Indian institution.. Is a patriotic Indian Muslim a traitor to his religion? Is a muslim in the Indian Army who serves in Kashmir, a traitor to his religion? Is a muslim president of India a traitor to his religion?

Difficult questions but they MUST be answered!!

Many apologies for not responding to you. It wasn't intentional.

Well.. then I look forward to much more productive discussions with you..

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
good.. finally a response!!

There has also been a history of Indian RAW agents (and accusations) that they are behind most\all terrorist bombing actions in Pakistan. Your view is subjective.

Yes well we are all willing to look at that evidence.. Anybody engaging in cross border terrorism should be held accountable. And it suffices to say that
no major ambitious country has its hands clean.
We need to look at everything on a case-to-case basis..
Waiting for your sources on that..

There is no love relationship between Pakistan and US. US used Pakistan to stop Russia. Simple as that. US always hated Pakistan and still do. That's my point and I think it better reflects reality.

No they do not.. w/o US assistance (military, economic etc) Pakistan would have collapsed due to various factors decades ago.. All relationships have underlaying strategic objectives.. please grow up..no country helps another because they 'LOVE' each other unconditionally..

Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally and has been for the last 30-40 years..

Russion relationship is not as simple as you think. There are world governments with common interests and one of those is to end these Islamic states. Russia's terrorism of Chechnya is proof of that.

So any state that fights a Islamic backed separatist movement automatically hates muslims?
C'mon man!! What are you saying?!

I know why NA hates Pakistan, thanks for elaborating.

welcome.. anytime..

If 9/11 was an inside job (which now seems to be the case given overwhelming evidence from worldwide) then who are the actual terrorists? AlCIAda do like to hang out in Pakistan though... Some kids are easily brainwashed with some candy.

And conspiracy theories and websites that support them may be an easy way
to hide behind the fact that 'everything bad happening is due to super sinister powers in 1st world countries'.. maybe its just a little more simple than that.. really..

Europe hates Pakistan. Military ties are there just to make money nothing else. Proof of this will be if and when Pakistan is attacked. None of these European countries have EVER come to the defense of Pakistan either diplomatically or otherwise. It's not part of the EU policy.

I think your core definition of love/hate is a little murky here.. There is NO undiluted love per say between ANY nation.. Its all about common interests and partnerships around that..

Arab governments are basically US puppets so they DO hate Pakistan. Arab people whether sunni\shia don't like Pakistani's because they have overwhelming pride for some reason. Strange I know...

Well you are introducing me/us to a new facet that I was unaware..

You will notice that China NEVER stands up WITH Pakistan when the under pressure politically and or militarily. Pakistan is China's disposable pawn and not even that... For example, China have NOT built up it's forces on the border with India given the India has raised it's security level to War Level. No pressure at all. China is a giant all by itself and will watch Pakistan get mauled and brutalised. Mark my words...

Maybe they're not such good strategic allies afterall?

I totally agree that Pakistan and India should have been ONE but the reality is that Muslims were being persecuted for being Muslims and it became necessary to build the partition. I love Ghandi for his dream I love Jinnah for his realism.

Muslims were being persecuted in British ruled India? By the British? By the hindus? I am confused..

And why did not all muslims migrate then? Why do we have a 2-300 million muslims in India today, of which an overwhelming majority are patriotic to the secular Indian institution.. Is a patriotic Indian Muslim a traitor to his religion? Is a muslim in the Indian Army who serves in Kashmir, a traitor to his religion? Is a muslim president of India a traitor to his religion?

Difficult questions but they MUST be answered!!

Many apologies for not responding to you. It wasn't intentional.

Well.. then I look forward to much more productive discussions with you..

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Daedalus3]

TBH, I don't know where we are going with this...

Lot's of OT discussion.

Trying to keep on topic:

My post was attempting to express that Pakistan will be overwhelmed by ALL sides (except Iran) and by all concerned global parties if there is a problem. Pakistan will not have ANY allies when this does happen.

Furthermore, Pakistan has it's own biggest enemy within - their 'own' government.

Anytime 2 nuclear powers are not feeling nicely about each other, it is a dangerous time...



let us hope that tensions do not boil over