The Bible:Tampered With Or Not?

I'll just say in response to some of the things in this thread, it's obvious that shenanigans are going on when out of one religion, you have 34000+ different denominations, all of them claiming different things about what God says.

That's right... Thirty Four THOUSAND different denominations.

How many different factions/denominations are there in hinduism? Buddhism? Islam? Judaism?

I mean, sheesh


As to if it has been tampered with or not. Yes, some maliciously done with intentions for those who did it. Some done unintentionally by lazy translators or shoddy scholarship.

The problem comes when people will use those things as justification for causing harm to people. Which, unfortunately, happens quite often, and always has.

Originally posted by Jomina
I'll just say in response to some of the things in this thread, it's obvious that shenanigans are going on when out of one religion, you have 34000+ different denominations, all of them claiming different things about what God says.

That's right... Thirty Four THOUSAND different denominations.

How many different factions/denominations are there in hinduism? Buddhism? Islam? Judaism?

I mean, sheesh


As to if it has been tampered with or not. Yes, some maliciously done with intentions for those who did it. Some done unintentionally by lazy translators or shoddy scholarship.

The problem comes when people will use those things as justification for causing harm to people. Which, unfortunately, happens quite often, and always has.

34K Christian denominations, huh? Wow, that sure does seems like a lot...

Do they acknowledge Jesus' divinity?

Do they recognize his death as a substitute for sin?

Do they feed the poor/help those in need?

Chances are most do...'most meaning, a high percentage...

Good enough for OT...could care less what the name is on the sign out front! Could care less if they are pre/mid/post trib! Could care less that they prefer hymns over Christain rock! Could care less on any of those 'differences' that make up that (suspect?) number of 34K...

the CENTRAL message is in my signature...

Originally posted by gordonwest
Yeah. The Christians have edited the bible so many times now, why the hell are they still beliving in the bible AND why are the Christians still thinks that they are true belivers in God. The Christian religion in today's world is a cult, because it has nothing to do with God in anyway. How can I be more clear with what I have said?

?????


you still ignored my earlier post/points...

Diversion doesn't suit you well...

Try again...if you are a seeker...if not OT can't help you!!

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by gordonwest
Yeah. The Christians have edited the bible so many times now, why the hell are they still beliving in the bible AND why are the Christians still thinks that they are true belivers in God. The Christian religion in today's world is a cult, because it has nothing to do with God in anyway. How can I be more clear with what I have said?

?????


you still ignored my earlier post/points...

Diversion doesn't suit you well...

Try again...if you are a seeker...if not OT can't help you!!

What is a seeker? Sorry, I do not understand. No, I am not a christian in any way. What I am is more then what normal humans can ever be.

reply to post by OldThinker

Thanks for knowing my motives there...another assumption...

WTF OT...attention to detail mate,

I was talkin to gordon with a reference to your earlier comment...

weak sauce man...

Simplynoone

Thanks for the links.
The KJV is mainly taken from the Tyndale Bible.In the 1520's William Tyndale traveled to Europe so he could study originals and copies of originals.He completed the NT first and only finished about 30% of the OT before the Catholic Church burnt him at the stake for being a heretic.To fill in what Tyndale didn't get to complete the Latin Vulgate was used.Tyndale's NT can be found here in its original language;
www.studylight.org...




OldThinker

.my take on prophecy is...it is released over time...thru time people see more and can look back with hindsight and see how it fits...look over the OT predictions to Israel in general...only after TIME could they see the BIG PICTURE...and understand what was siad before...and what became of it...I think some call it progressive revelation...SO...all those yet-to-be-fulfilled stuff will happen in time...speculation on my part, for sure.

I agree with that up to a point.
But to the Jewish people,the Bible prophecies concerning the Messiah haven't even begun to be fulfilled.Which,no matter what some Christians may say,is very important.



chapter29

I KNOW it is tampered with...and I like that - it confuses the enemy.

Well said.




prototism

Tampered with? No. That implies [petty] malicious intent (whether or not it was malicious on a larger, more grandiose scale is a different matter entirely). The better word for what happened would be a restructuring of the Bible, specifically at the Council of Nicaea. At least thats what I have heard.

But some changes will have been done with malicious intent.Once man knew that religion could be used to gain power,wealth and control there have been those men who will manipulate it for their own ends.



Good Wolf

I'm not sure it was tampered with, but rather it was altered over the years by human incompetence.

Innocent mistakes will have obviously made also in the translating and copying.




Jomina

That's right... Thirty Four THOUSAND different denominations.

Do you have any information on this?

Originally posted by jakyll
Good Wolf

I'm not sure it was tampered with, but rather it was altered over the years by human incompetence.

Innocent mistakes will have obviously made also in the translating and copying.

Maybe I should clarify. I believe that there have been many instances when the bible is used as a tool to control populations. I would say looking at christian history, that occasionally it's used on large populations but I would say that most of the time, only small groups are manipulated. I do not think that it has been edited consistently by a single agenda, but just -you know, updated every now and then to exaggerate church dependence a wee bit.

So it's a product of successive agenda, both innocent and otherwise.


But of course you could also look the the bible that never was.
Think about all the books that were never canonised as part of the first Bible, and books that were later taken out. Think about the dead sea scrolls and the Gnostic gospels.

There is basically a whole other sister religion to Christianity that was stamped out from the get go, and as "luck" would have it (and I use the term loosely) the religion that prospered was a church-based one where the wealth flowed to the priests.

I think that's the conspiracy - the canonisation of the bible to begin with, rather than continual editing.

Yup,

The NT has been much tampered with, here are some examples :


Mark 16:9-20
The Resurrection Appearances

Most of the earliest witnesses have G.Mark ending at 16:8 - with the empty tomb scene, but no resurrection appearances etc.
Intriguingly, an empty tomb scene was not unknown in other 1st century dramatic writings - e.g. Chariton's novel Chareas and Callirhoe included an empty tomb scene as the climax.

G.Mark ends at 16:8 in the very important early MSS Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, and also in others such as : Latin Codex Bobiensis, the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, and the two oldest Georgian translations and many Armenian manuscripts.

In later versions however, there are several DIFFERENT endings to G.Mark after 16:8 -
* the longer ending (16:9-20 in many Bibles)
* the shorter ending (also found in some study bibles)
* another minor variant of a few verses

In other words -
there are at least FOUR different ways that G.Mark ends.

(Many modern Bibles now indicate this with brackets or a marginal note - go check yours.)

Origen and Clement of Alexandria (early 3rd C.) and Victor of Antioch quote and discuss G.Mark WITHOUT mentioning the appendix. Eusebius (early 4th C.) mentions that most MSS do not have the appendix. Jerome also specifically notes the passage can not be found in most Greek MSS of his time (4th C.) This means Eusebius and Jerome KNEW of the appendix, but noted that it was NOT part of the Bible at that time.

Thus, this is clear and present evidence that the post-resurrection stories were NOT original, but added later, around the 4th-5th century or so.


Luke 3:22
The words of God at the Baptism

Early MSS and quotes have the same as the Psalm :
"...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou are my son, this day have I begotten thee"

But later versions have changed it to :
"...and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved son; in thee I am well pleased"

Here we see Christian scribes have CHANGED the very words of God, or the alleged words of God. And we know the reason - it supports the view called Adoptionism - later called a heresy.

In other words, Christian writers had no compunction about changing the supposed words of God himself, at a crucial time in the story. Clearly this does not represent anything real or historical.



1 John 5:7
The Trinity

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

This passage is not found in ANY early Greek MSS, and was therefore not included in the original Textus Receptus of Erasmus in the 16th Century.
Erasmus said "I will not include the Comma unless I see a Greek MSS which includes it".
Sure enough, a newly written Greek MSS suddenly "appeared" with this passage, so Erasmus ADDED it to the 2nd edition - how dishonest and errant can you get !


...

...


Matthew 6:13
The Lord's Prayer

Early and important MSS (Aleph, B, D, Z, 205, 547) as well as some fathers (Tertullian, Origen, and Cyprian) have :
"And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil"

Other MSS have :
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen"

And a few MSS have another version :
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the father, the son, and the holy spirit for ever. Amen"

A few MSS exclude the words "the power" or "the glory" or "the kingdom".

The Lord's Prayer is one of the more variant parts of the NT.

Now,
this prayer was supposedly taught by Jesus himself.
But
early Christians could not agree what the prayer said !



Mark 1:1
Jesus Christ [Son of God]

Early MSS do not have "son of God".


John 9:35
Son of Man/God

Early MSS have :
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, Do you believe in the Son of man?"

Later versions have :
"Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"



Acts 8:37
JC is the Son of God

"And Phillip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"

This passage is missing from all the early MSS.

In other words, the MSS show a consistent pattern of "Son of Man" being changed into "Son of God".




Mark 1:2
As written in [Isaiah]

The early MSS have :
"As it is written in Isaiah the prophet..."

But most later versions have :
"As it is written in the prophets..."

Probably because the quote is NOT really from Isaiah (its composited from Isaiah, Malachai, and Exodus) - the eariest MSS were wrong, so later versions fixed this error by using just "prophets".

Here we see later scribes fixing up an earlier mistake.
Clear and present proof of errancy.



Colossians 1:14
Redemption by blood


All early MSS have the shorter :
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins"

But later copies have added "through his blood" :
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"

This is an important proof-text for the doctrine of redemption by Chist's blood - but its a later addition.



So what does this show ?

1. The NT was often changed during its history.

2. The changes included some of the most important parts of Christian doctrine :
* the resurrection
* the alleged words of GOD at the Jordan!
* the Lord's Prayer
* the Trinity
etc.

3. The reason the NT was changed was often arguments over doctrine - i.e. different Christian sects fiddled the books to support their sect.


The NT is one of the most errant books you could find.


Kapyong

G'day to all! I was _thinking_ I should start a new thread. The title of the new thread 'What are the real_unknown real pages-history of the bible - without going into newer versions'. I want to ask the Author of this thread if I can be allowed to copy-paste the title of this thread AS part of my new thread. I also would have 'continues from this thread'.

reply to post by gordonwest


Yeah,go right ahead mate.

I'm amazed at how little attention this thread has received. I'd expect the bigots to have stormed this thread, but no, all we really got was OT, and he didn't do much.

Ya know, I wouldn't mind finding out who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. No one has solved that mystery yet, even the catholic biblical scholars don't know who wrote them (but they have their theories).

Only loosely related since it wouldn't technically be 'tampering'...

There were many many texts containing the words of Jesus that were excluded from being a part of the Bible/Canons during the Council of Nicaea. Also note, this took place three centuries after the death of Christ.

This should interest people that are not only interested in the integrity of the Bible, but the integrity of Jesus's teachings in general.

The explanation from the Christians is that the council was inspired by God, so essentially God was choosing through the council (of men) what was to be included.

[edit on 16-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by jakyll


Thanks.

I have no doubt it has, at the very least, been tampered with after attempting to navigate that collection of incoherent, inconsistent babble.

The only questions are when, where and why. Some of which has been answered by biblical historians themselves if you read between the lines.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


This is an interesting point. I'm no scholar but I'm under the impression that one of them was allegedly written by Jesus himself Correct me if I'm wrong.



The other thing worth mentioning is that the christians may justify the cannon, but they can't really justify burning the nooks that weren't canonised can they. No more than they can justify the pope burning the library of Alexandria.

reply to post by Good Wolf


I don't believe any of them are allegedly written directly by Christ. Here are some of the names I have memorized.

Pistis(sp?) Sophia
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Mary
Gospel of Philip(sp?)
Gospel of The Egyptians (I believe it goes by another name)?
Gospel of Truth

These are collectively known as Gnostic.

I am not sure if they all contain the accounts of Jesus, or the words of Jesus. The ones I have read personally, have though. Such as Gospel of Thomas, and Pistis Sophia for example.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

The other thing worth mentioning is that the christians may justify the cannon, but they can't really justify burning the nooks that weren't canonised can they.

There is a certain theme, a particular tempo, inherent to these non-canonized texts. Actually, often they are in quite the contrast with the ones that were canonized. Reading them definitely changes the way you interpret the ones that were canonized. With that in mind, I think it's pretty clear as to why they were not canonized: didn't fit their agenda

[edit on 16-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Is the Bible tampered with!

Yes!
As long as humans are in charge and can interpret and use their imagination freely to explain the word of God i am in no doubt.
Our own roles have also set boundaries on have religion is to be served and used by the public.

The word of God is expressed in many books from human imagination of interpreting words and visions given to them directly by God.

Through time we have had many great minds who have made new interpretations of the original interpretations. And some of these new interpretations are used by us to day.

And some of these great minds have made many new books called the Bible. We have had more then one of them.

I think this is going to go on and on. In the future we might even get a new bible. Who knows.

By the way we use the bible to day. I am in no doubt!! that we are moving further and further away from the original story and the real words of God.

We are interpreting new words of God.
Gods word is fating away in our interpretation and free imagination.

We do what ever we like because we dont respect our own religion.

Gday,

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
There were many many texts containing the words of Jesus that were excluded from being a part of the Bible/Canons during the Council of Nicaea.

Oh dear.

Another person who thinks the Council of Nicea chose the books of the bible.

They didn't.

But that doesn't stop people endlessly repeating this urban legend.


K.