I question my religion and faith. Please help =) Proof please not just words..

Atleast your questioning things and not blindly accepting it as fact. The moment we stop searching is a sad moment indeed. To be honest, the only thing that keeps me believing is the awesome and miraculous things that I have witnessed in my own life. Stuff that I can't explain. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't believe because I've seen no other evidence.
I've essentially been through the same pattern all my life Atheist-Believer-Atheist-Believer. Everytime I'd deny God something so awesome and improbable would happen that I had no choice but to say, "there is a God, it can't be explained any other way." I read the Word and sometimes the more I read the more confused I get. But thats because man has messed it up. Its been tampered with, but I'm doing my best to find "God". It took me a long time but I realized that there is a lot more truth within me than whats contained in any sacred book or anything of this world. Seek after the almighty and do your best to do it with an open mind.
Sincerly thirst after knowledge and I think you'll find it

Originally posted by Leveller

I totally agree with you. But that still doesn't mean you have to turn away from him. I personally don't see Jesus as a physical story but rather being one of spirituality. It doesn't even matter to me that he may or may not have actually existed. There is plenty of evidence to me that his story was deep rooted in what we now call Paganism. But as I said, that doesn't make the story any less pertinent. There is a meaning within that story and it is up to the reader to interpret it.

Some here will already know, that I am no lover of the Church. In fact, I absolutely loathe it for it's lies, deceit, manipulation, murder and the breaking of just about every other moral law known to man. I know that this hatred is justified but I also know that it is not an emotion I should entertain although there is no way that I can ever respect that organisation.

But I don't see the story of Jesus as being one that belongs to a Church. It belongs to all of us and it is up to us to take it and do what we see fit with it. Freeing myself from the Church doesn't make me any less of a Christian. Maybe it does in their eyes, but certainly not in my own. And in God's eyes? Who knows?

For me, it is entirely logical and perfect that God exists. I am bound by no other rule than my own morality and the rules of law in the land where I live. The freewill that he gave me, opened up the door to trying to find out more about myself and my God. It can now only be closed by me.

I believe that it is up to each individual to search for the truth for themselves. This doesn't mean turning your back on every religion and believing that everything within them is a lie. The stories in the Bible were written by much cleverer men than I, and it is not a book that I can ever totally discard as there is much truth in there written behind the politics and the impurity.

Well, I also agree with you. What I'm saying is, I don't know if Jesus really existed, but let's pretend he did, I don't think he would want us to just pray for him blindly. You can admire him for what he has done, his courage and his heart. But that doesn't mean you now just have to venerate him as much as you can, thinking about him all the time, to be saved...I think that what he would want you to do is to live your own life by following his teachings. Love your neighbor, help the others, try not to commit sins. Some people seem to think that, it's not important that you don't take your responsabilities in the world, as long as you just have to think about Jesus, it's ok. I don't believe that, this is crap for the lazy of heart. They prefer to have someone who will tell them what to do instead of having to think by themself and be responsible for their act. Sadly, this is how our society is these days, we try to deresponsabilize people. It shouldn't be like that...

Originally posted by riouxda


Well, I also agree with you. What I'm saying is, I don't know if Jesus really existed, but let's pretend he did, I don't think he would want us to just pray for him blindly. You can admire him for what he has done, his courage and his heart. But that doesn't mean you now just have to venerate him as much as you can, thinking about him all the time, to be saved...

I don't know if you are addressing this personally to me, but if you are, I can assure you that I don't venerate Jesus as God, and there is no way I would follow his teachings for my personal salvation.
Worship for the result of salvation has a leaning toward service to self.

I don't worship Jesus. My belief is that he was a man. Maybe the most perfect man who ever lived (who knows?) but at the end of the day, he was still a man. Following and worshipping are two totally different things. You can follow the teachings of Jesus and still not contradict your belief if you decide to throw away Church doctrine.

When you study deeper, you will discover that there was not just one "Jesus". He had his counterparts in many religions and faiths - most are direct and earlier counterparts. But they all use the same story to express a point. It's that point that I follow.



[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by KSoze
Atleast your questioning things and not blindly accepting it as fact. The moment we stop searching is a sad moment indeed. To be honest, the only thing that keeps me believing is the awesome and miraculous things that I have witnessed in my own life. Stuff that I can't explain. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't believe because I've seen no other evidence.
I've essentially been through the same pattern all my life Atheist-Believer-Atheist-Believer. Everytime I'd deny God something so awesome and improbable would happen that I had no choice but to say, "there is a God, it can't be explained any other way." I read the Word and sometimes the more I read the more confused I get. But thats because man has messed it up. Its been tampered with, but I'm doing my best to find "God". It took me a long time but I realized that there is a lot more truth within me than whats contained in any sacred book or anything of this world. Seek after the almighty and do your best to do it with an open mind.
Sincerly thirst after knowledge and I think you'll find it

Originally posted by Xeven
I was brought up christian and I believed/believe now. Yet now at 35 years old I cannot deny that the bible is hardly unmanipulated by man. I cannot deny that it seriously contradicts itself. FInally I cannot deny that all religions appear to be started and driven by men trying to control humainity.

So what religion if any has a god that will do something today to convince me that their book or belifes are real so that I may follow on something more than mans words.

Simply writing a big hello in space using stars or planets or heck even a gas cloud would do yet none of them do so much as give me a glowing light to show me they are real and they love me and want me to follow them.

All I have is a old massively edited book one written by men to follow. I also have men whom could simply be brainwashed by their parents and world up on the pulpit telling me it is true.

So please someone show me some proof that thier god is real and loves me and wants me to live forever.

Thanks and I am serious about this.

Xeven

I used to pray for a sign to show me that "god" existed. Well, I got my answer. No sign ever came. That is my answer, apparently. Of course, the way most xians think, they'd say, "God, if your there, don't do anything. Don't give me a sign." And that would be good enough for them.

I'm a very skeptical agnostic, or that's the closest thing I can label myself, anyway. I don't deny the possibility of gods. However, I deny the possibility of one, and only one, "god", and I'll always refute the definition of "god".

You've prayed or been religious for 35 years, never seen a "sign", and you're just now wondering why? That is your sign! It's like telling a dog to bark if he understands you. Well, if he doesn't bark, how long are you going to give him before you decide that he really just doesn't understand?

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by Satyr]

Ok...this seem to be a new trend...

Got me wondering. Why so many people (especially Catholics it seems) start questionning thier beliefs & expect people from here to help them "make the right choice"?

What is that? Is it because of stuff you've read on ATS?

This is a choices you need to make for your self.

ANd come on...(from the author of this thread, first post)

Proof please not just words..

Are you kiddin' us? Do you really expect someone from here to have a proof (besides personnal experience) that God does/doesn't exsit???? WTF?!?!?!?

Sadly, you have decided to devote yourself to a religion called humanism. It's a dangerous and fatally-flawed philosophy. There is more truth in one page (any page)of the Bible than exists in the heart of any man alive, or in the whole human race collectively.

The Bible warns against such false conceits, and "the heart is desperately wicked above all things..." You CAN put your faith in yourself, but that will not get you very far when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

God IS a loving God. He loved us enough to send a piece of himself (his Son) to die for us. If you neglect that simple truth all the way to the grave, unfortunately you will also find that he is a holy and righteous and jeolous God who will not be mocked.

I know this sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to, but the fact is you have a choice, we all do...accept him as Lord and savior of your life and find eternal life, or reject him, now that you have heard the truth, and face the consequences of having purposefully and wilfully rejected him in favor of the devil's favorite (and lately, most effective) religion...humanism.

The choice is yours, "Choose ye carefully whom you will serve."

Listen to yourself! "Accept god and enjoy his love, or be cast into the eternal flame to burn forever!" Am I the only one who finds this funny?

BTW, I serve no one.

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
Listen to yourself!

"Accept god and enjoy his love, or be cast into the eternal flame to burn forever!"

Am I the only one who finds this funny?

No, you're not alone

Seems we just got a "Truth" #2 on the boards lol...

In that case, how is God's "love" any different than Satan? You either succumb to him, or you'll feel his wrath! Okay...that makes real good sense.

As a former Roman Catholic, I find the "serve me or die a number of horrible deaths because I love you" imperative so amusing. Must you hide behind an afterlife to assage your fear of death. Must you tremble before an almighty who does not exist?

DE

Originally posted by Satyr
Okay...that makes real good sense.

Nah, religion isn't for you Satyr. You love logical sense.

"logic" and "religion" don't go really well together.

ooo...listen to the Satanists howl when anybody dares challenge their master's favorite religion...

Originally posted by Leveller

I don't know if you are addressing this personally to me, but if you are, I can assure you that I don't venerate Jesus as God, and there is no way I would follow his teachings for my personal salvation.
Worship for the result of salvation has a leaning toward service to self.

I don't worship Jesus. My belief is that he was a man. Maybe the most perfect man who ever lived (who knows?) but at the end of the day, he was still a man. Following and worshipping are two totally different things. You can follow the teachings of Jesus and still not contradict your belief if you decide to throw away Church doctrine.

When you study deeper, you will discover that there was not just one "Jesus". He had his counterparts in many religions and faiths - most are direct and earlier counterparts. But they all use the same story to express a point. It's that point that I follow.



[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Leveller]

For your question, no, I wasn't referring to you personnaly, I was saying my thoughts on the subject to people in general. I agree with you that most religions have their own version of Jesus. They are extraordinary men who tried to show us the way to follow...

This thread is not consiracy related,
The original posters intent was "faith" based.
The thread is being moved.


seekerof

Originally posted by m0rbid

Originally posted by Satyr
Okay...that makes real good sense.

Nah, religion isn't for you Satyr. You love logical sense.

"logic" and "religion" don't go really well together.

Yeah, tell me about it!

Originally posted by mepatriot
ooo...listen to the Satanists howl when anybody dares challenge their master's favorite religion...

Now I'm labeled a Satanist, because I don't believe in religion! :bnghd: Hmmm, last time I checked, Satan was part of religion, too. How lame. I guess I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Satan?

Originally posted by mepatriot
Sadly, you have decided to devote yourself to a religion called humanism. It's a dangerous and fatally-flawed philosophy. There is more truth in one page (any page)of the Bible than exists in the heart of any man alive, or in the whole human race collectively.
The Bible warns against such false conceits, and "the heart is desperately wicked above all things..." You CAN put your faith in yourself, but that will not get you very far when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

God IS a loving God. He loved us enough to send a piece of himself (his Son) to die for us. If you neglect that simple truth all the way to the grave, unfortunately you will also find that he is a holy and righteous and jeolous God who will not be mocked.

I know this sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to, but the fact is you have a choice, we all do...accept him as Lord and savior of your life and find eternal life, or reject him, now that you have heard the truth, and face the consequences of having purposefully and wilfully rejected him in favor of the devil's favorite (and lately, most effective) religion...humanism.

The choice is yours, "Choose ye carefully whom you will serve."

Well if you take the bible to be truth then you still believe that bats are birds and the the earth is flat?

I guess I picked a bad day to be human.

HUMANISM AND ITS ASPIRATIONS
Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933*
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment
that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The lifestance of Humanism-guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience-encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a
consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining
this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience-each subject to analysis by critical
intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as
all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn
to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth
and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of
human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty
and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence
enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to
reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just
distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal
enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a
planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals.
The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

Originally posted by Seekerof
This thread is not consiracy related,
The original posters intent was "faith" based.
The thread is being moved.


seekerof

Well actually it is conspiracy based. I'm basically wondering if religions are just conspiracies of men to control us or is there proof that God/Jesus exist. Guess It does not matter..

Here's advice.

Find your own religion. I believe that in order to have a strong faith you must be commited and find your own footings. Do some research, see what there is. Don't ask for opinions of others if you dislike your religion now because of man's misgivings.

Originally posted by favouriteslave

Well if you take the bible to be truth then you still believe that bats are birds and the the earth is flat?

I guess I picked a bad day to be human

Oh please, the bible doesn't say the world is flat anywhere. I'd like you to point out exactly where it does. And don't tell me it's the verses talking about Jesus seeing the four corners of the world.