The Crash of Western Capitalist Civilization?

reply to post by Blaine91555


Do you guys just make this stuff up as you go along and figure if you say it, often and authoritatively, enough it will be so?

You are completely incorrect in regards to unemployment statistics. There was never double-digit numbers under Carter, there was however under Reagan .
Unemployment numbers from 1948 to the present.


As for the interest rates, I assume you meant "prime". The rate was increasing but variable under Carter -- and this I would argue has more to do with the Fed's influence than Carter's, and it was only near 21% for two weeks at the end of Carter's term : LINK

Originally posted by Ian McLean

Originally posted by grover

If there's a commercial collapse, and the 'hand' disappears, Americans may wake to find that their culture is gone: only the memory of a hollow, contrived illusion, the supporting bubble of which has burst. There was "no there, there".

One of the best quotes I've heard in a while. So true. This world is run by money. We live and breathe it. We are so lost in bling culture when it's all gone we won't know what to do with ourselves.

gotta make some edits, Idk what happen with this post.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by Blaine91555
We are not even in the ballpark of the Carter Era yet. This is heaven compared to those years. Double digit inflation, 20+% Mortgage Rates and unemployment far above the level now, which is still near historical lows.

Just because we aren't there yet doesn't mean we aren't headed there. I have faith, as of right now, that AIG will get the loan and that massive hit we took monday will be the worst of it for the time being, but that doesn't change the overall picture. We are still trying to support a massive weight that wants to come crashing down on our heads. If we don't start making long term policy changes, we may see that weight come down on us in the near future (from a couple week to 5 years from now).

I think its a matter of perception. Young people have never been through a downturn in their adult lives and us Baby Boomer's on here must have short memories it seems.

Sure that is part of it for the younger generation, but part of it is also the situation. We are constantly coming up with short term solutions. Changing one weak support beam with another, never actually finding a stable support to better the long term situation. Nobody can deny the fact that we are in troubling times with the conditions the way they are.

It is essential that we make good use of the time we are afforded to stop this run away train before it crashes. We need economic policy reform. The problem is nobody is doing it.

It could get way worse though. If the next President tries to tax their way out of this downturn. Raising capital gains taxes could cause another Carter Era. No investment money = no growth = no new jobs = bad times. Surely nobody would be so foolish as to sugest an increase in capital gains taxes when it could cause a market crash

If the status quo is left as it is, it WILL get much worse. Both presidents are raising the budget,(obama obviously much more) and neither of them have competent economic reform policies to avoid a meltdown in the future. The weight that is above us is only going to increase with the next presidency, regardless of whether or not it is McCain or Obama. This is a serious issue.

In the short term, I have faith that we can pull through this weeks economic crisis, but in the long term, I cannot say the same. Both these presidential candidates are going to fail us economically, and it is during a time that we simply cannot afford such a failure.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

You are completely incorrect in regards to unemployment statistics. There was never double-digit numbers under Carter, there was however under Reagan .

It was widely reported by the press. If they were wrong, they were wrong.
No need for the snooty remarks.

As for the interest rates, I assume you meant "prime". The rate was increasing but variable under Carter -- and this I would argue has more to do with the Fed's influence than Carter's, and it was only near 21% for two weeks

I clearly said Mortgage rates not Prime Rate (Federal Fund Rate which is at 2% today) which is the rate at which banks borrow. I was lucky to have one at 21+%. Others were as high as 25% I understand. Calculate your current Mortgage payments at 21% and you tell me if it is painful or not? We had a housing bubble then as well. My home went from a value of $125,000 to $275,000 in two years in Tacoma, Washington.

That was the only period in my life I ever had any trouble finding work. I had to take a kids job at a tire shop doing tire changes. By then I had two degrees and was licensed as an Industrial Electrician.

Have you ever seen inflation at the level it reached under Carter? 4.8% when he took office to 11% when he left. Not to mention the rates of taxation on top of everything else. Reagan inherited that mess.

To say we are going to collapse now when we survived then is pretty intellectually dishonest. Times might get hard for some, but to say Capitalism is over is a real stretch. Propaganda in fact.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Both these presidential candidates are going to fail us economically, and it is during a time that we simply cannot afford such a failure.

On that we can all agree.

What worries me the most is the promise of a Capital Gains Tax increase from Obama. No investment equals no jobs and takes investing to the level of gambling in a casino.

We are once again faced with nobody to vote for. What I want to hear is WE ARE GOING TO STOP SPENDING YOUR MONEY ON CRAP from both Candidates. A Christmas card would be nice also

reply to post by iamcamouflage


my wife's mother is alive and well and lived through that.

and still keeps gold coins in the house to pay for groceries when the time

comes.

that's the funny part.

the sad part is between the farms she owns, and the rural

house we have, we have already forward positioned supplies. and lots more.

now all everybody needs is some personal luck, and fate on your side.

This is it. don't fool yourself.

Its now just a matter of time, depending on the flux of future events along

the path to predetermined points.

Let the collider fire, and time travel begin, so that some of us

can survive by coming back to before this all happened....

[edit on 9/16/2008 by drphilxr]

AIG Bailout.

www.iht.com...

We can rest easy that the financial crisis is totally over now, and there will never ever be a need for another bailout.


Seriously though we are still in big trouble.

Hi There,

This financial debacle carries undertones of agenda. Now don't get me wrong, I understand the international financial market as I do rocket science...and I don't build rockets. Yet (and I'm sure the more learned of us may correct me), if I remember rightly, the 'Great Depression' was a manufactured event to enable the banking elite to acquire greater control of America's finance? Are we not seeing something of the same tactic once again?

It would seem to me that the nationalising of AIG does not put control of insurance into government hands, but in the hands of the Central Bank, and this is owned by private families. The American dollar was never owned by the American people, but loaned to them at a dollar's value plus interest. Thus, the American people are only 'virtually' wealthy, but are in actuality in debt. Through this financial crisis, a cabal of banking families have gained greater control of the debt of America. It smacks of strategic financial acquisitions in the manner that Icke calls...problem, reaction, solution. There never was a capitalist system of 'free markets', it is only a term used to obsfucate the real system of 'control'. What a paradox between disparate terms it is...'a controlled free market'. It has the stamp of NWO all over it...a forced dismantling of financial houses who have been allowed (without the in placement of regulation) to mismanage the system, and then suddenly find that the debt they acquired through bad lending ignites a implosion of the market. Seeking aid from the tax-payer, the government bails out certain key institutions, and by this manner, the private cabal centralises finance under its control...because it owns the dollar, and is paid interest on the dollar. America, your wealth is an illusion, your reality is debt, and your buried way over your head in it.

Originally posted by elysiumfire
I understand the international financial market as I do rocket science...and I don't build rockets.

And yet, from your post, something makes me think you understand rocket science very well. Thank you.

What are your thoughts on the 'creation' of value? You mention that the central monetary creating institutions create dollars, etc., which have 'one dollars worth of value, plus interest'. So, do those institutions create value, also, or is that a separate process?

I'm thinking that value is created by exploitation of resources, which banks don't do, directly. But I wonder, is that description correct?

reply to post by downtown436


That is certainly good news. Look for stocks to go up moderately tomorrow. A spike is definately in order with this good news. AIG not bottoming out is good news when it comes to the worlds largest insurer.

The crash of western capitalist civilization will bring the western fascist civilization. And leaders will convince people that it's for their own good

reply to post by pai mei


Well, maybe. There's still the possibility they could turn socialist to try and save whats left.

But with the way they're heading at the moment, you're probably right, they are more likely to pull a fascism stunt to distract the economy.


This is all hypothetical, as we don't know if the crash will be as serious as the other nations that shared a similar history as the US.


So...
What I wanna know is...

... who's the next superpower?

Originally posted by Blaine91555
We are not even in the ballpark of the Carter Era yet. This is heaven compared to those years. Double digit inflation, 20+% Mortgage Rates and unemployment far above the level now, which is still near historical lows.

I think its a matter of perception. Young people have never been through a downturn in their adult lives and us Baby Boomer's on here must have short memories it seems.

I am so sick of people saying this is not as bad as the Carter Era! We had good paying jobs back then not this service industry growth crap. It is a BIG difference! We had good jobs and most people had money in the bank. In the Carter Era General Motors had one of the biggest hiring sprees in its history.

It is very hard to find a good job now. Everyone is up to their eyeballs in debt. Double digit inflation and 20 percent mortgage rates when you are being paid a good wage is nothing compared to the house of cards we sit on now.

Do you want fries with that spin you posted? How about if you supersize it for a dollar more? It would be funny if it were not so serious.

Get some perspective!

It's not hard to find a good job now. I put my resume out like two months ago and people are still calling with offers.

The fact of the matter is that this crisis isn't really as bad as it's made to be. If we didn't have CNN, Fox News and CNBC prattling on about this 24hrs. a day, you probably wouldn't care half as much. A couple banks will go under, people will lose money and some will be out of a job. A few years from now this will all be behind us.

I hate to break this to everybody---civilization isn't going to end, the Russians aren't going to invade, there will be no soup lines or anything like that at all. This country has gone through stuff like this and come out of it every time. Everybody likes to whine and complain. We've become a country full of whiners who want somebody else to fix our problems while we go out and buy shiny new toys that we haven't earned the money for. Everyone wants to start out on the top of the ladder and point the finger at the other guy when things go wrong. That mentality is probably a bigger problem than this.

All of you can go over to Google now and do some of your famous "research" and find some nifty little charts and news clippings to show me how bad things "really" are. I'm going to go eat a cheeseburger and slap my wife's butt. Life goes on, deal with it

[edit on 17-9-2008 by little green stud muffin]

This is an adjustment of the financial systems. Banks got greedy and no government could ever intervene in the excessive growth in credit and house prices. If they did they would have been hung drawn and quartered by everybody, including the press. And yet.....we now hear these very same folks bleating on about the government not intervening when it should have. Pathetic.

That said, there has to be change in the way a country's finances are controlled. That means regulation to ensure that these greedy idiots in charge of financial institutions are not allowed to screw things up again. This means some institutions going under whilst others rescued. This is both punishment for the greedy and protection for the innocent.

There is one aspect of this that is still very disturbing: If you owe the bank 100,000 (mortgage) and you have savings in that bank (100,000) and the bank collapses what happens? Do they net off what you owe against what you have invested...not at all, don't be silly, the banks win in the end. Your savings are lost, tough, that's capitalism, you took a chance. However, your debt is transferred to the new owner of the assets of the collapsed bank. So you end up 100,000 worse off and still owing money.....nice one!!!!!! Anyone with half a brain can see that this a wonderful way to steal folks savings in order to balance the "collective" banks books. By collective I mean those banks that will survive and those that will go under. I bet you right now there are guys in suits planning which institutions should collapse and who will take them over........disgusting. If I'm right institutions with high savings will go under and those with high debtors will survive. Common sense dictates the other way round!

Originally posted by Inannamute
As far as now versus previous generations, in a very real sense the people in the 30's were far more self sufficient than we are today. The vast majority of the population has no knowledge of how to actually take care of themselves without money, no actual practical skills in say, fixing things rather than buying new, or growing their own food if necessary, etc etc.

That is the chain that holds us down right there. Nobody is free in the western world because nobody is independent. The chain can be wound right in short to nothing and nobody will break free, because everybody relies on being chained down to be supplied with what they need and want.

reply to post by Interestinggg



The Worlds financial and banking structure was not as intergrated then as it is now. Not as many people had access to credit then as now and only the rich owned their own home and had the ability to get a mortgage. Everything is interlinked now in a way that was never possible before so when a panic like this starts it spreads in seconds not days of weeks as before.
We live in interesting times and I think judging by the current situation L Bros is not the last investment bank that will go to the wall, HBOS shares dropped 40% over night, that is quite scary on its own.
I think that when depression comes, and it will come, it will be much more devestating that the great depression of the 20's and 30's because it will effect everyone from the lowest paid worker to the high powered executive, not just in the US and EU but across the globe. We will get through it I'm sure, but we are in for some lean times and I dont think the world of big investment bankers paying themselves $40 million bonuses will come again for a long time. It is their greed and our willingness to encourage that greed that has put us in the situation we are in now.

reply to post by St Udio


what happenning right now in the us economy reminds me of what i read in the book ROPESPINNER MON

reply to post by little green stud muffin


No, it was serious, thats why the Fed had to reverse its decision and give the loan. It wasn't an easy decision for them, but they had no choice. You cannot afford to have the largest insurer in the world and a huge investment bank go bankrupt in the same week.

Not to mention that people just completely ignore the fact the government could very possibly make money off of this action. They didn't just give 85 billion dollars away like some of the members here would have you believe.

I would recommend doing some serious research into why it was so urgent for the Fed to change their hardline stance, and how they may not walk away empty handed.