The Crash of Western Capitalist Civilization?

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Really the title of this thread is somewhat off center... it takes far more than an economic meltdown to cause a civilization to crash... more than anything it takes a failure of ideals or faith since a civilization is more about those belief systems than it is economics.

Originally posted by Maxmars
I don't understand. I can't keep myself from resisting the notion that "the bankers didn't learn' because I fail to see in what way they are suffering. They are multi-millionaires and billionaires. They suffer no consequences other than to their image and ego.

None of these people, I am referring to those instrumental in the wealth shift, ever have to work a day in their lives. Frankly, most never have, and never will.

Look, if you are talking about bankers when they say they don't work, then you really need to get a grip. Ever worked for an investment bank? I did. Every single employee (and that includes a lot of higher-ups) work their proverbial off and clock incredible hours. You should try that someday.

I'm not saying that a lot of directors fully deserve the multigazillion compensation packages, but I really want to get the facts straight.

Originally posted by grover
Really the title of this thread is somewhat off center... it takes far more than an economic meltdown to cause a civilization to crash... more than anything it takes a failure of ideals or faith since a civilization is more about those belief systems than it is economics.

Which brings up an interesting point. In modern American, to an extent unseen before in history, the norms and 'rules' of culture and society are created by commercial interest.

If there's a commercial collapse, and the 'hand' disappears, Americans may wake to find that their culture is gone: only the memory of a hollow, contrived illusion, the supporting bubble of which has burst. There was "no there, there".

America has gradually redefined itself, culturally, to a system of belief, ideology, and value based solely on the best-interest of commerce. Without that, there's no foundation, and America may well reap the chaotic harvest of such an unstable construction.

I am reminded of 'The Who' song going mobile. Minimize everthing. I am going to hold the mother of all garage sales this weekend and get what I can for anything I have.

I have been sick, and progressively sicker. Ran thru my 401, savings, and equity loan. All I need is a place to rest my head for the night. I'll get a subzero sleeping blanket if need be.

These are dire times. Increasingly so. This will prove our metal.

reply to post by Ian McLean


We have for a large part defined ourselves, mostly since WW2, as a consumer culture and when you look at it that is a pretty shallow self definition.

We have traded change for cultural growth and social development for change for changes sake as a marketing ploy.

Change for changes’ sake eventually becomes sterile, and a culture that embraces it without reservation loses authenticity, the power to inspire, and ultimately all reason for being.

Wall street has turned the myth of the rugged individualist American pioneer into a self absorbed consumer who has no inkling as to what is happening to the rest of the world thanks to our selfish greed.

In doing these things we have so deprived ourselves of anything really meaningful as a society... the result of this is a self centered polarization that threatens to tear the nation apart.

We have traded social concern for self concern to the deteriment of all.



[edit on 16-9-2008 by grover]

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Look, if you are talking about bankers when they say they don't work, then you really need to get a grip. Ever worked for an investment bank? I did. Every single employee (and that includes a lot of higher-ups) work their proverbial off and clock incredible hours. You should try that someday.

I'm not saying that a lot of directors fully deserve the multigazillion compensation packages, but I really want to get the facts straight.

I have no argument with that, I was referring more to the 'board room' jockey's who MAKE policy. Not those who are in the unenviable position of making the policy actually work (and usually get beaten up when a policy doesn't pan out the way the 'deciders' expected it to.)

This doesn't seem a lesson learned, this seems like a scam that was rushed to it's completion. Where did the money go? Where is it? Who has it? Was there ever any 'money' at all? I see all the all the billions being referenced, yet, billions of what, numbers on a spreadsheet? SOMEONE is getting obscenely wealthy, and quickly, yet no one seems to know who that is.

A war that costs about $6000.00 a second to finance?

reply to post by iamcamouflage


news.bbc.co.uk...

America and empire built on sand comes to mind

the country is a house of cards and its taking the rest of us down with it

Originally posted by moonrat
A war that costs about $6000.00 a second to finance?

A crazy at that amount is, it STILL comes up short when compared to the trillions that are being shuffled around.

I agree that the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about is a large part of the scam, but there is more behind this. Much more, in terms of controlling the market and manipulating wealth distribution.

reply to post by Maxmars


Great post! It amazes me how many people believes everything THEY say you to get scared.
Even as hellish as the 30's may have been, it wasn't the collapse of the western capitalism. They only played a little rougher in their sandbox, and regular people got screwed. They only got richer, as they have the means and knowledge to get advantage on any situation (which is even easier if you are the one that made up that situation, of course).

By they, I mean "very rich and powerful people" (just in case).

One of the main issues with this news scare is the fact that many people will start to panic.
The media controlling the flow of information is one of the new factors appearing in today's global landscape.

We have to take into account the fact that if some investors start panicking and begin to take their money elsewhere, things could get worse, and the media may have some responsibility stirring the hen house.

This has been seen in previous times, as has been clearly pointed out in previous posts, the Asian crisis of the 90's was just a hiccup, this seems like something completely different.

Only time will tell, it wont take long to see if this is really a crisis or just a bump in the road...

I agree with some of the posts above & I don't think that many people realise just how bad the situation is or will become. The problem isn't with falling house prices or stock values, that is the cure, the problem was how artificially high they got in the first place.

The way that we in the Uk & you in the Us have behaved over the last few decades reminds me of the demise of the textile industry probably half a century ago. It was a massive industry here, but greedy mill owners & shareholders & bankers, always wanting more profit, embarked on a campaign of importing cheap foreign labour & exploiting them, resulting in wage deflation as domestic workers lost their jobs & were replaced by, or held back by the threat of, cheap labour.

Eventually some of the immigrant workers return home with their new found skills, buy cheap second hand & "outdated" machinery, & exploit their own massive supply of cheap domestic labour, produce the same goods as we do, only cheaper, which eventually put the entire textile industry out of business.

We've continued to do the same with other industries, prefering to have goods made cheaply overseas until we have little manufacturing, the thing that creates wealth, left.

We've then deluded ourselves that our economies can survive by us selling our houses to each other at more & more ludicrous prices, have conned ourselves into thinking that yearly increases in debt = growth, & in the end it can't be sustained any further.

What is actually happening is a massive transfer of assets, the very wealthy at the top will walk away with almost everything for pennies on the Dollar, they'll invest in the up & coming economic powers, & do it all again.

We have nothing left to dig ourselves out of the hole with, we make nothing, have little industry, & can no longer consume since our paper is worthless.

You should all watch & listen to Peter Schiff - he's been predicting this for ages. Search for him on google & on his companies website are links to his videos on Fox, etc - watching from a year ago its hilarious to see how all of the bulls ridicule him - funnily they don't seem to be around anymore.

We are not even in the ballpark of the Carter Era yet. This is heaven compared to those years. Double digit inflation, 20+% Mortgage Rates and unemployment far above the level now, which is still near historical lows.

I think its a matter of perception. Young people have never been through a downturn in their adult lives and us Baby Boomer's on here must have short memories it seems.

It could get way worse though. If the next President tries to tax their way out of this downturn. Raising capital gains taxes could cause another Carter Era. No investment money = no growth = no new jobs = bad times. Surely nobody would be so foolish as to sugest an increase in capital gains taxes when it could cause a market crash

Originally posted by Blaine91555
It could get way worse though. If the next President tries to tax their way out of this downturn. Raising capital gains taxes could cause another Carter Era. No investment money = no growth = no new jobs = bad times. Surely nobody would be so foolish as to sugest an increase in capital gains taxes when it could cause a market crash

Agreed, but how much you wanna bet that someone comes up with a plan that does just THAT! I hope not - but this group of elite socialites, that sells themselves to us as our 'leaders,' never fail to disappoint...

It's all very well to compare this era's facts figures and numbers to those of times previously, but I think, and have seen sources stating that things like unemployment figures are fudged creatively to make them seem lower than they are.. likewise with those things which indicate recession, or depression.

As far as now versus previous generations, in a very real sense the people in the 30's were far more self sufficient than we are today. The vast majority of the population has no knowledge of how to actually take care of themselves without money, no actual practical skills in say, fixing things rather than buying new, or growing their own food if necessary, etc etc.

Originally posted by Interestinggg
Hello is anyone home in here or do I have to ring a bell or something???
We had a GREAT DEPRESSION.
The DJI stopped trading where it once started at!
We survived that.
You can not get any worse than that!
Short of global nuclear war or other extinction level event's.
We can never get any worse than the Great Depression.
So why worry about this?
Its just another day on the street.
Be careful selling your stocks as our deceitful contrarian buddies are looking to buy them off you.
Just like Nathan Rothschild during the Napoleonic wars.
It only takes some false rumors or over hyped news for these guys to own whole economy's.

I agree with 100 percent. Nothing to fear but fear itself. Ofcourse we cannot help that there are just so many greedy people out there who just don't care for anyone else but themselves and nothing will ever be done about that because it seems that is part of nature. Just invest carefully and study before you do it and not go blindly into anything and I mean anything. If you are not sure then ask around and ask around again. Don't take any phone calls from any banks or broker services because they are only in for themselves and not for your interest. Remember and this too shall pass.

reply to post by buddhasystem



oh please. long hours do not mean hard work.

managing to stay awake during meetings where you look for more ways to squeeze more productivity out of "human resources" is not work.
getting up for 7 am Tee times with a client is not work.
three hour, three martini lunches isn't work.
taking a prospective client out for tequila, blow and lapdances is not work.

there's a reason why the image of American business is a board room. a few select people sit around and pat each other on the back and make six figures while people doing actual labor struggle to survive.

it makes me ill what some people call hard work. I walked away from a career that was rapidly approaching six figures because like many, I was left unfulfilled by what what passes for "work" these days. sure I was there 10 to 12 hours but I was starting at the same four walls, same dozen faces, taking the same calls, sitting through carbon copies of the same meetings, and shuffling papers from one stack to another over and over and over. it's no wonder so many of us are angry and or depressed all the time.

when any politician talks about the American business model I to know EXACTLY what they mean. do they mean the business model that says: export all productions jobs overseas. then use then use undocumented and underpaid immigrants to repackage and distribute your products, leaving a handful of jobs at corporate offices for American workers to grovel for and feel grateful. is this what they mean when they talk about the American business model?

so many of us are calling are calling this another Great Depression because we YEARN for it. this culture of greed and willpower (will to power) is sick and the economy is just a symptom.

I hate to say it, but I know some are thinking it...but doom and gloomers with NO background in economics please....shut up! It's a credit cycle, many here still seem to have access to the internet and are eating well enough to make the U.S. the most obese nation on earth yet are jumping at the idea that we are somehow surpassing the great depression. So please, please, please, shut up, you don't know what you're talking about 95% of the time. Economies are cyclical, and it's not because of a fiat currency problem, it's because of basic economics. Many businesses are cyclical and guess what...one of those businesses is lending. The idea that the business cycle exists because of the Fed is utterly wrong, because it has always existed. Someone go read some of Milton Friedman's works and stop counting on second hand information from people who are ignorant to what they are talking about.

reply to post by Maxmars


One person already has proposed that. I'll leave that for others to find themselves.

Originally posted by Inannamute
but I think, and have seen sources stating that things like unemployment figures are fudged creatively to make them seem lower than they are.. likewise with those things which indicate recession, or depression.

Unemployment was calculated the same way then, except it went over 15%. My Mortgage rate was at 21+%. Inflation reached well into the double digits. We survived and prospered.