Sunbathers Bask Next To Child Corpses

EDIT: Post removed as a disagreement with another poster in this thread has been resolved. Verdict: Misunderstanding.



Thankyou Wallachian for having the guts to talk it out.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Psychopump]

reply to post by Wallachian


Wallachian,

You misunderstood my posting.
“I do not condone but totally understand the behavior of the people in the article. “

Meaning: I do not think that they reacted “normaly”..but…given the problems gypsies create there, I understand their pragmatism and their attitude. I might have the same attitude, if one of them would kill someone close to me or my family just to steal a few dollars…

Was I saying is ok to take anyone’s life? Was I saying that a couple of innocent kids deserved this?

The issue at hand is not this anyway.I thought we were discussing how people reacted, not who killed these kids.

reply to post by Bursuc


As you can see in the post above you, when i make a mistake i do whatever in my power to appologize and correct it.

In this situation though I think you are the one who missunderstood my post. When i was talking about punishing an innocent i meant what i also said two lines further, the reaction of the people there and the authorities. Nowhere in my post was any reference to "taking anyone's life", no idea where you got that from, sorry.

I was talking about what you were also talking about in your post. The attitude of the people and whether it was excusable or not.

Based on my experiences with Gypsies in Italy and Spain, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the kids. Sure, it turns out they were actually dead bodies, but you've got to watch out for traps with that lot. They'll do anything to trick you into a situation that will allow them to rob you.

Edit to add: That also can help explain why there'd be a lack of sympathy for these people. They're a daily menace in that part of the world.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by EverythingYouDespise]

It looked to me like those people in the picture were not exactly smiling and having a good time. In fact I think they were sad.
The fact is, If you see a dead body your world does stop for a moment. and if there is no one else around, it is an innate, moral, human responsibility that you at least keep the ants and birds off of them until they can be claimed by someone with more authority or personal interest.
Unless you are a jerk.

I don't see the logic in your thought. Just because somebody happened to kick it where I'm trying to relax I have to make it a priority to keep their corpse clean?

For who? It's not like the owner needs it anymore!

reply to post by jackinthebox
I suppose none of us would actually know for sure what we would do in a situation like this before we suddenly find ourself in the midst of it.

I used to be a mountain rescue volunteer, so I have been involved in the recovery of corpses. Although we maintained a sort of black humor among ourselves to cope with the grimness of it all, we always treated the dead with the respect we felt that their family would have.

I think how a society treats their most despised members tells you a lot about how civilized that society really is.

Ours I'm afraid is not as civilized as we would like to think.

The video mentioned earlier was provided by Wallachian. The babelfish translation makes, er, interesting reading.

Originally posted by Wallachian
Here is a video that i found, to clarify things a little.

video on italian site

And this is an approximate translation made with babel fish:

They have gone around of Italy and of the world the images of the two bodies of the children rom dead women you drown saturday afternoon in the sea of Torregaveta, have provoked the indignation of many because they showed the cold indifference of those which in the same moment in which the two bodies they lay without life on the shoreline they continued imperturbable in their activities. They swam, they took the sun, they ate their breakfasts while the corpses of the two sorelline remained only covered from two burlaps from sea on the beach for beyond three hours waiting for being removed. “The images of our city Are these that we would not want to see - have said deeply hurt Sepe Cardinal - they have made sure more evil badly than those which have shown for the world a Naples submergeeed from the refusals. To turn itself from the other part or makes the transactions own can be sometimes more devastating of the same events that happen. The newspapers have shown the photos when all already it was completed - the bishop of Naples has continued and of the two children we have been able to only notice the piedini that they exited from the cloth from sea that covered to them, but unfortunately in those terrible photos it has been able to see more worse very, people nearly annoyed from the presence of the two corpses that occupied the boot topping. I hope - it has concluded Sepe. That facts of the sort are not repeated never more”

On the same page you can see that the bodies were not abandoned, there was indeed somebody watching them. But the fact is that they did stay there on the beach for over 3 hours, while people were having breakfast around them.

May i ask, if those girls were somebody you knew and loved, you'd still think this kind of reaction is ok or excusable?

I think the real targets of criticism here should be the Italian authorities for leaving such a clear health hazard on a public beach for 3 hours!
I am sure that in most european or other western countries the response time would be MUCH quicker.

Personally I think this "EveryOne" group is grasping at straws and trying to make the most out of any perceived slights it can find. They are apparently distributing the pictures everywhere. Yeah, the tragedy of the century, two kids drown in the ocean. That never just "happens" there MUST be something behind in it.

The civil liberties group EveryOne said it was unconvinced by reports of the incident at Torregaveta and asked whether there might be something more sinister behind it.

They are even insinuating there maybe foul play involved? Based on what, witnesses? The statements of the other two girls? Or their own fanciful imaginations? If someone dies then it MUST be an evil racist plot right?

They are just trying to stir up the masses. Nothing new. Hopefully the Italians are a bit more wise to this sort of propoganda.

reply to post by Sonya610


Roma do not see stealing as wrong because they do not believe in property.

This is also why they do not understand why they can't camp anywhere they want. It is why they are constantly in conflict with locals over land and right of use.

As far as stealing from each other, they don't generally. They aren't stealing to buy plasma tvs or new 360s. They are stealing to survive. If I am hungry a Roma will share his food with me. If I am cold he will give me his ( stolen ) blanket. I don't have to steal from my people, they share.

Recently I was visiting my family when my uncle happened to come across a very nice diamond ring. ( I didn't ask...*grins* ). He showed it off to the family and everyone commented how valuable it must be. The next day, the ring was gone. Someone had liberated him of it as he undoubtedly liberated it from someone else. His response was a shrug - " They must have needed it more then I did" he said.

That's their general attitude towards material things.

The pictures are a little deceiving with the distance. I also wonder if the people sitting there were already there when the bodies were put there. They don't look happy and a picture can say a thousand words. Where or who is outside the picture. It's nice to know that the photographer was closer to the bodies than the beach goers, but yet it's OK to get that close and get a pic for his story. To me they are children of the human race and I'm sad they drowned, but I think the reporter is making a big deal out of a tragedy.

Originally posted by MerigoldRecently I was visiting my family when my uncle happened to come across a very nice diamond ring. ( I didn't ask...*grins* ). He showed it off to the family and everyone commented how valuable it must be. The next day, the ring was gone. Someone had liberated him of it as he undoubtedly liberated it from someone else. His response was a shrug - " They must have needed it more then I did" he said.

And because he didn't have to work for it, easy come easy go. So they are basically parasites, choosing to steal and con instead of work. Wonderful philosophy as long as you can live among hosts that do work, do build things and produce food and keep society functioning.

But hey that attitude is common in many places, people are taught to feel guilty if they don't want parasites feeding off of them. Perhaps in a few decades there will be a movement to promote the acceptance of tapeworms.

reply to post by Sonya610


Look, I don't neccasasrily condon them doing what they do, but it is something that the Roma have done since time immortal. It IS part of their culture.

Seeing a human being as a parasite invites the acceptance of pograms to eliminate the parasite.

You know what I see? I see people who are truely free. They don't worry about a mortgage or being laid off. They don't stress over finances. They lead very simple lives and I for one envy it.

Do not misunderstand. They aren't buying new cars, or going on expensive vacations with their loot. They are feeding their children and buying firewood, or making sure that their elderly parents have a warm spot in the family caravan.

And to make it very clear, stealing ISN'T their primary means of support.. They actually have professions such as silversmiths, musicians, and leatherworkers. Traditional Roma way of life means you depend on your family and your skills to finance your travels. Just like in any society there are the criminals among them - My point I am trying to make is that even the most successful thief among them does not see him or herself as a criminal.

Bah, I am finding it difficult to explain, hell I find it difficult to understand it myself.

I just wish my life was simple as it is for the rest of my family. If they are hungry and pass by a garden, they eat. If they are weary and pass by suitable land they stop. If I am hungry I have to go to the grocery store with money that I've busted my ass trying to make at a job which I hate...


*shrugs*

I'm a little hurt by the venom I sense in your post Sonya..I've always enjoyed reading your posts and the open mindeedness of them..this felt so..mean..?

Originally posted by Merigold
reply to post by Sonya610

 

Look, I don't neccasasrily condon them doing what they do, but it is something that the Roma have done since time immortal. It IS part of their culture.

Seeing a human being as a parasite invites the acceptance of pograms to eliminate the parasite.

You know what I see? I see people who are truely free. They don't worry about a mortgage or being laid off. They don't stress over finances. They lead very simple lives and I for one envy it.

Do not misunderstand. They aren't buying new cars, or going on expensive vacations with their loot. They are feeding their children and buying firewood, or making sure that their elderly parents have a warm spot in the family caravan.

And to make it very clear, stealing ISN'T their primary means of support.. They actually have professions such as silversmiths, musicians, and leatherworkers. Traditional Roma way of life means you depend on your family and your skills to finance your travels. Just like in any society there are the criminals among them - My point I am trying to make is that even the most successful thief among them does not see him or herself as a criminal.

Bah, I am finding it difficult to explain, hell I find it difficult to understand it myself.

I just wish my life was simple as it is for the rest of my family. If they are hungry and pass by a garden, they eat. If they are weary and pass by suitable land they stop. If I am hungry I have to go to the grocery store with money that I've busted my ass trying to make at a job which I hate...


*shrugs*

I'm a little hurt by the venom I sense in your post Sonya..I've always enjoyed reading your posts and the open mindeedness of them..this felt so..mean..?

what sentimental, infantalising hogwash.............


Anwyay, irony in this quote

"EveryOne, a group that lobbies for Roma's rights in Italy, described Saturday's events in a statement on its Web site:

"Unreal, cruel scenes, indicative of how racism has transformed the Italian people into [an] inhuman people, educated by propaganda, to consider the Roma people on a level with animals, unworthy of sentiments of pity and pain." "

So, in attacking racism, they castigate the entire Italian people- no irony there at all...........

I am not sure whether this incident is in any way racist. However, there seem to have been a few racist attacks in Italy against roma camps.

One of them happened in May, this year, in Naples, where also the two girls drowned.

Here you can read about what children of ages between 9 and 11 from Naples had to say when asked about their oppinions regarding the persecution of gypsies.

The other attack took place in Rome this week.

One thing i really don't understand. How did the italian government allow such camps of illegal immigrants to settle? Didn't they realize they are promoting in this way crimminal activities?

The EU has laws that don't allow you to settle in a different country unless you can prove you have means to support yourself and a place to live.

The italian goverment seemed blind to the building of such camps until the situation got out of hand. And then the newly elected Berlusconi government, which consists mainly of right and extreme right parties, started "taking care of things", for instance by deciding to fingerprint all gypsies. This measure was criticized by many, including the European Parliament, and so the government decided to fingerprint ALL italian citizens.


[edit on 24-7-2008 by Wallachian]

Originally posted by Merigold
Recently I was visiting my family when my uncle happened to come across a very nice diamond ring. ( I didn't ask...*grins* ). He showed it off to the family and everyone commented how valuable it must be. The next day, the ring was gone. Someone had liberated him of it as he undoubtedly liberated it from someone else. His response was a shrug - " They must have needed it more then I did" he said.

That's their general attitude towards material things.

How would a Roma tribe member react to a non-Roma tribe member stealing from them? Would they have the same attitude in this situation?

Merigold I just get sick of the modern day pc nonsense. These days the masses are not only expected to TOLERATE criminal subcultures, but they are expected to smile and pretend they LIKE those subcultures. If you don’t smile and pretend you like the people that are #&%&*%^& you over then you must be an evil racist.

Regarding the issue of Switzerland. My mother is Swiss, from one of the original Cantons, her family is traced back to the 12th century. Switzerland is one of the most liberal, pleasant places in all the world, the Swiss are also incredibly civil people with astonishingly low crime rates.

The Roma should feel extremely grateful that they are even allowed to EXIST in Switzerland. No one brought your people to Switzerland in chains, they came willingly in search of a better pickings or to flee persecution. So the Swiss don’t like it when people steal everything they can get their hands on, well they shouldn’t have to like it.

During the war when food was scarce my mother was growing up in a relatively poor Swiss farming family, they knew given the chance the gypsies would steal chickens or whatever else they could get their hands on. They were lucky the Swiss were kind, they didn't shoot them and they didn't deport them.

Regarding my posts "usually being nice" it really depends on the topic.

Originally posted by EverythingYouDespise
I don't see the logic in your thought. Just because somebody happened to kick it where I'm trying to relax I have to make it a priority to keep their corpse clean?

For who? It's not like the owner needs it anymore!

like i said. "Unless you are a jerk." what the hell, I don't know. Maybe you are.

And how many homeless people do each and everyone of you walk past each day and ignore?

Flip the channel when anything comes on about the genocide in Darfur appears.

Or turn the newspaper page away from reading about the next 2,000 people that will lose their jobs (and homes)?

It's called apathy and until a "problem" hits home most people simply turn a blind eye to issues that don't involve them.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
And how many homeless people do each and everyone of you walk past each day and ignore?

Honestly? Very close to NONE at all. I always try to give something to eat or to drink on a hot day. I personally give my old clothes to the homeless. At the local supermarket I always buy 3 extra tins of dog food for the guy who lives behind the market´s dogs. If I can´t five anything I always stop for a chat.

Flip the channel when anything comes on about the genocide in Darfur appears.

I have no TV by choice as I no longer know or trust what I should believe in the news. The media is not an unbiased information conduit.

Or turn the newspaper page away from reading about the next 2,000 people that will lose their jobs (and homes)?

I read a newspaper online, and it´s exactly this kind of story that interests me as they are a barometer to the state of humanity. Again, I mix and compare my sources to avoid misinforming myself.

It's called apathy and until a "problem" hits home most people simply turn a blind eye to issues that don't involve them.

Very true. And awareness of this fact is the first step to curing one´s self of apathy.