Sunbathers Bask Next To Child Corpses

It's almost like the reporter wanted to make this into some huge racial thing

It IS a racial thing. The Roma are seen as less then human by a large segment of society.

Almost every country has a history of oppressing and discriminating the Roma.

The Roma generally are a very conservative people. They may live among you but they live mostly seperate lives.

It's easy to eat your ice cream and enjoy a day out when the dead bodies next to you can be thought of as animals and not people.

Shameful.

reply to post by Merigold
Agreed. It's pretty bad how callused some members posts are, but it's nowhere as bad as the comment sections in some of the newspapers I browsed trough.



Everyone: Please remember when you comment; you are not talking about a piece of flesh, you are talking about someones child.

Two people enjoying a day at the beach...two bodies covered, we know the children are deceased...big question...did the people sitting there know this too or is this just an attempt to raise awareness by the photographer that something is amiss?

Can't blame the people at the beach because none of us were there so we do not know whether they knew or not. Doesn't matter what country this is, deceased human beings are not left unattended, ever!

As has been pointed out, the authorities would be to blame for not doing their job, whether these children were Roma or not, there should have been someone standing guard until arrangements were made to remove the bodies.

~holly

With this kind of report, I can't really form an oppinion one way or another. The only way I could do that is if I actually knew everything that went on. (Which will most definitely never happen.)

All I can do is look at what is given. (That being the two pictures.)

Two out of three links have pictures which both seem to have been taken by the same person. (The third chose not to display a picture.)

Here's my thoughts on those.

The first one, (abcnews.go.com) seems to me that they were focused on the people in the background, not the bodies. (The bodies are blurry. The people aren't.) Why take pictures of things other than what you're there to take pictures of? Do news photographers get paid for "Extra credit"?

Probably not. Some things happen in the blink of an eye, so I'm sure they just snap away and sort through it all later. As an amateur photographer, I can't blame them. Getting that perfect shot gives you a feeling I can't describe.

The second, (www.independant.co.uk) the people are now looking at the camera which is now focused on the bodies. I have no idea what they were thinking at the time, but maybe they were wondering why someone was taking pictures of them not knowing about the two girls?


I can only speak for myself when saying that if I walked down the path to the beach and saw two people who covered themselves with towels, I would think nothing of it. I'm not there to wonder or care about what others are doing. I'm there to enjoy my own time.

Apparently that's not what happened though, and like I said, I wasn't there. The best advice anyone can give to anyone is when the S*** hits the fan, do your best to handle the situation with what you have available to you.

That seems to be what those who were there did, and in my mind, they did a damned good job.

reply to post by snowen20

That was the same thing I thought. The people there probably had some level of concern I'm sure, but what would you really expect them to do? Sit there and wait for emergency services I would think. Just because they're not crying their eyes out hovering over the bodies, this is odd?

On the other hand, the more conspiratorial nature brought up in part 2 of the OP seems to have some teeth as well.

Like the previous poster said, what were they supposed to do? I am not at all sure all the sunbathers vacating that section of the beach and leaving the corpses alone, just lying there would have been any better.

The article really does seem to go to great lengths to make this a cultural thing. I don't see how that plays into it, unless it had an effect on the slow response from the authorities.

But regarding being "biased", sheesh I am american, I have only been to Italy a couple of times but I knew before I went that being robbed by gypsies was a problem. Ooppps...is that not pc now? Are they only called Roma now?

When I was in Iran I was afraid of the aggressive gangs of beggar children (afghan refugees mostly), yet I was assured they would NOT steal. Actually it was my fault they were aggressive, I gave one money (after being advised not to) and then there were a dozen more in an instant. The fear of gangs of aggressive little street children that mob you and rob you blind is a reasonable one. If there were every any Roma in Iran I would think they are long gone.

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Sonya610]

[edit on 22-7-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by InTrueFiction

Originally posted by gekko
Personally I would not have remained next to a couple of dead kids. I suppose I would have moved further down the beach or to another one.

The fact that some people are somewhat insensitive is not my issue here though. The story doesn't make sense to me.

Would Roma kids normally bath in public? EveryOne says they would not. Anyone familiar with Roma culture here?

I have worked in the social area before and during that time worked closely with about 50 Roma families. All of the kids I worked with would and did. Times have changed and at least in the communities I have worked (three) it was very rare for the new generations to still follow the old traditions of the culture. Or even their parents for that matter. These past two generations have shown a lot of change at least in the Southern European region.

I was gonna say. i lived in romania for a while and dont remeber the romany (I assuming its the same group? Gypsys right?) being "shy", at all.

reply to post by Merigold


when i visited Rome back in '02 i noticed the heavy roma presence (to me, just "gypsies" i didnt kno it was seen as an offensive term till now) making themselves Seem less than human, vying for pity with extreme panhandling measures. moaning and weeping women rocking on the streetcorner outside my hostel with the same child i saw a different lady wailing with outside Termini hours later.. honestly passing around kids as to help the act. One of humankinds defining characteristics is its Pride; and anyone trying to get by and spending their entire waking days wailing and screaming for pity, make themselves Be less than human.
My only other experience with gypsies was being swarmed, molested and robbed by gypsy hookers in the middle of the street in madrid... either way neither experience did any good for my perception of the gypsy folk.

I think one thing many of you are missing is, it's not that they died and didn't get any respect that's upsetting people, it's HOW they died. These you girls was out swimming with two of their friendes. They got too far out and was hit by a underwater current. They screamed for help but NO-ONE on the beach they where visiting tried to help them. Instead it was a life-guard on another beach that got to their rescue. However he was only able to help two of the girls and the other two, the ones on the picture, died. So the thing that gets me worked up by this article is the fact that even though they screamed for help no-one tryed to help them, because they where gypsies, and that makes me

I don't see the big deal about them staying on the beach.

1) They aren't sitting right next to the kids, they are about 25 to 30 feet away
2) Since some kids died, they should give up their day at the beach, and drive home?

3) it was the sickos who took the pics of the dead kids that is the atrocity
4) people die everyday, think of not going to a hospital, and then not wanting to sit in a certain room, because someone had died there previously, its an ignorant thought

5) maybe these two people were taking time to reflect on how fragile life really is.......

ok - a couple of points - the photo shown dramatically foreshortens the scene - either by accident or design - the photographer has used DOF [ depth of feild ]

second people are claming that the corpses are ` unattended / abandoned ` how do they know this ?

thanks to the composition or cropping of the pic there could be a police man / guard withing 3m of the bodies

people are leaping to some dammed ignorant conclusions here

maybe the folks were watching for the Hurdy Gurdy man. As they seemed to be by the sea Gazing.

source : Donovan

Thrown like a star in my vast sleep
I open my eyes to take a peep
To find that I was by the sea
Gazing with tranquillity.
'Twas then when the Hurdy Gurdy Man
Came singing songs of love,
Then when the Hurdy Gurdy Man
Came singing songs of love.
Hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, gurdy he sang.
Hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, gurdy he sang.
Hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, hurdy gurdy, gurdy he san

[edit on 23-7-2008 by RUFFREADY]

Here is a video that i found, to clarify things a little.

video on italian site

And this is an approximate translation made with babel fish:

They have gone around of Italy and of the world the images of the two bodies of the children rom dead women you drown saturday afternoon in the sea of Torregaveta, have provoked the indignation of many because they showed the cold indifference of those which in the same moment in which the two bodies they lay without life on the shoreline they continued imperturbable in their activities. They swam, they took the sun, they ate their breakfasts while the corpses of the two sorelline remained only covered from two burlaps from sea on the beach for beyond three hours waiting for being removed. “The images of our city Are these that we would not want to see - have said deeply hurt Sepe Cardinal - they have made sure more evil badly than those which have shown for the world a Naples submergeeed from the refusals. To turn itself from the other part or makes the transactions own can be sometimes more devastating of the same events that happen. The newspapers have shown the photos when all already it was completed - the bishop of Naples has continued and of the two children we have been able to only notice the piedini that they exited from the cloth from sea that covered to them, but unfortunately in those terrible photos it has been able to see more worse very, people nearly annoyed from the presence of the two corpses that occupied the boot topping. I hope - it has concluded Sepe. That facts of the sort are not repeated never more”

On the same page you can see that the bodies were not abandoned, there was indeed somebody watching them. But the fact is that they did stay there on the beach for over 3 hours, while people were having breakfast around them.

May i ask, if those girls were somebody you knew and loved, you'd still think this kind of reaction is ok or excusable?

Even if it was my daughter, I would not expect everyone to sit around and wallow with me.

But, three hours is a long time.... which begs the question.. Why were my daughters sit out on a beach DEAD for three hours?

That is the problem. The corpses should have be gone long before three hours.

Stop blaming people who are just living their lives.

Death happens, get over it. Death is one of the only things that binds us all together, yet it repulses us? That is like being repulsed by breathing, or urinating, or defecating... we all do it..

Originally posted by Proclarush Taonas
I think one thing many of you are missing is, it's not that they died and didn't get any respect that's upsetting people, it's HOW they died. These you girls was out swimming with two of their friendes. They got too far out and was hit by a underwater current. They screamed for help but NO-ONE on the beach they where visiting tried to help them. Instead it was a life-guard on another beach that got to their rescue. However he was only able to help two of the girls and the other two, the ones on the picture, died. So the thing that gets me worked up by this article is the fact that even though they screamed for help no-one tryed to help them, because they where gypsies, and that makes me

I ahve to say there may be more to it than this.
In my experience gypsies are not the most honest of people. If I had been bothered on the beach by panhandling gypsy children, I would have quickly hidden my valuables. It could well be that the people on the beach were afraid it was a trick, and didn´t help for that reason...?
A little more of the back-story could clarify much.

reply to post by ignorant_ape


The conclusion i came to is not based on ignorance, but rather on knowing the gypsy situation very well. I'm not saying knowing the situation better than you, since obviously you have studied it quite a bit too, right? I'm sure you wouldn't just call people ignorant while having no idea of the bigger picture of what you're talking about.

I live in a country where officially 2.5% of the population is roma. I have roma neighbours. I know racism against roma people is very real and very common.

They are a very poor and very uneducated ethnic group, only few of them manage to get a good education and a good job. As a result there are high criminal rates amongst them. Notice how i'm not even trying to be politically correct here, i'm just saying the truth.

There is a cause why these people act the way they do, as some posters said here, "less than human". And that cause is lack of education, lack of better knowledge, poverty, a life-long state of humiliation. And these things are caused by hundreds of years of slavery, of discrimination, of suspicion, of being considered sub-humans and criminals. If society would actually treat them as humans, they would act as such.

I know for a fact that the way those girls were treated is a racist act. As the OP said before, if they would have been blonde swedish tourists, they would have gotten a lot more respect.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Wallachian]

Originally posted by WallachianThey are a very poor and very uneducated ethnic group, only few of them manage to get a good education and a good job. As a result there are high criminal rates amongst them. Notice how i'm not even trying to be politically correct here, i'm just saying the truth.

Yes, that is why they have a reputation in ALL the countries that they live in as grifters and thieves. Because NONE of those countries offer free education to poor kids. If they can't pay for their schooling in Italy, Spain, U.S. etc...they simply won't get any schooling, they will never even learn how to read and so they MUST steal/lie/con to make a living.

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by WallachianThey are a very poor and very uneducated ethnic group, only few of them manage to get a good education and a good job. As a result there are high criminal rates amongst them. Notice how i'm not even trying to be politically correct here, i'm just saying the truth.

Yes, that is why they have a reputation in ALL the countries that they live in as grifters and thieves. Because NONE of those countries offer free education to poor kids. If they can't pay for their schooling in Italy, Spain, U.S. etc...they simply won't get any schooling, they will never even learn how to read and so they MUST steal/lie/con to make a living.

Not true. Free education is offered in many of the countries they live in - Portugal, Spain and Italy being an example. The main issue that has been a huge setback on the Roma communities were the facts that by cultural tradition their women were taken out of school at the age of twelve (to prepare for an arranged marriage usually set up by their grandmother or family matriarch) and school attendance all around (both from girls an boys) is awfully poor.

Roma families never demanded of their kids to go to school and it is hard to expect kids of ANY race to decide to study and go to classes on their own without any incentive or guidance.

Even worse than that, being a very secluded community, instead of working together with the school whenever their kids misbehaved as opposed to dealing with the issue for the better education of the new generations families generally simply decided to take their kids out of the school not to be bothered again.

Many problems also came from the educational clash that was caused at home when the young kids were getting a higher education and different cultural education than their families had - which wasn't well accepted at all in the community.

Of course here the "good riddance" factor also plays a huge role since schools would (and in many cases sadly still do) just preffer to not see them again instead of dealing with this problem. Many times the school just waits for the Roma kids to mess up enough so that they'll have grounds to kick them out hence solving the problem.

THANKFULLY... even though this is not a solved situation by far and still carries many unsolved problems, there has been a lot of progress as it concerns the relationship between school and the Roma community (part of many efforts that have been made in the social field especially in the last decade).

EDIT to add:

I think it needs be said that in spite of all the bad reputation the Roma get all over the world from my experience working with them they also have many good traits. I can for example honestly say that out of all the work I did with juvenile delinquents the kids that left me with the best memories were the Roma. When they like you they're the sweetest kids on Earth.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by InTrueFiction]