Forced Servitude In America?

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Is reading comprehension part of that IQ test?

Reading comprehension? It has already been pointed out by SaviorComplex that "most school clubs for high-achievers or gifted students have volunteerism requirements". The same principles hold. We cannot expect something for nothing. Of course it is a whole lot easier to sit at home ranting about this conspiracy theory or that while bemoaning our powerlessness.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6Are you sure you didn't mean to say you administer educational apptitude tests? Those might show this supposed 50th percentile and lower score which I now believe is a complete figment of your imagination anyway.

As a clinical psychologist I think I know what tests I administer thank you. For some oddball reason many of the home schooling parents in this area like to think their home schooled children are Mensa material, and so they come to me to test their children prior to the Mensa exam. They are as incredulous as you after learning what meatheads their children really are. Like father/mother, like son/daughter.

Originally posted by Lilitu
Reading comprehension? It has already been pointed out by SaviorComplex that "most school clubs for high-achievers or gifted students have volunteerism requirements". The same principles hold. We cannot expect something for nothing. Of course it is a whole lot easier to sit at home ranting about this conspiracy theory or that while bemoaning our powerlessness.

Fair enough, but why did you tie it to college assistance instead of education as a whole beforehand? Also the case can be made that as far as public school goes, they aren't getting "something for nothing" as their parents are (hopefully) the ones funding the system through income, sales, and sin taxes. As a parent and a tax payer I find it disgusting to think that the school system should have any form of say over what my child is doing between the hours of 4 PM and 7:30 AM (or whatever hours school runs these days.) As long as my kids are staying out of trouble, progressing their education and achieving good grades, and attending school regularly, any efforts to dictate even 50 hours a year of their outside of school time is completely unacceptable to me.

Originally posted by LilituAs a clinical psychologist I think I know what tests I administer thank you. For some oddball reason many of the home schooling parents in this area like to think their home schooled children are Mensa material, and so they come to me to test their children prior to the Mensa exam. They are as incredulous as you after learning what meatheads their children really are. Like father/mother, like son/daughter.

As I previously stated then, IQ tests do not relate to educational background or level of schooling. The kids you claim to have tested would have performed the same on these tests in the public school system assuming they weren't enrolled in some special course designed to exercise a person's intuitive and logical thinking, which as far as I am aware of isn't a standard class offered in many high schools. All the traditional directed learning math, art, and science classes in the world won't help a person determine which combination of shaded shapes logically comes next in a series unless they've been trained to think analytically... which is diametrically opposed to the standard M.O. in today's public schools which focus on restrictive "majority think." In other words, individuality and thinking outside the box isn't in line with your standard public school's philosphy of collectivism.

I was homeschooled for part of my grade school years. I have no intention of getting into the online "I'm smarter than ..." nonsense, but I'll let my posts speak as to whether I'm an intelligent person or not. I fully support a parent's right to homeschool and find any effort to restrict that right to be unconstitutional.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by burdman30ott6]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Your propagandizing is nice and I am sure the Obama campaign would be proud, but speaking from Obama's daily talking points once he realized this wouldn't be a good idea really doesn't convince me of anything. However, as I said, as long as its completely optional I don't care. I know reading beyond the talking points is a lot of work for people on ATS.

Of course Republican talking points are always the God's honest truth, right?

Spoken like someone who has truly never spent lots of time doing community service. I suggest you look into the research done by lots of sociology scholars about linking material incentives to do service. It doesn't end up well. The problem is that if you are paying people to do community service then they aren't doing community service, they are in it for the money. People can and do game the system, because (surprise) a few programs like this already exist. They don't last long, nor do they go national, because they are failures.

Yeah, they're failures, all except the US Military. How many tens of thousands sign up for service just to get college money? Before 9/11 of course; nowadays anyone with the brains to get into college shouldn't be stupid enough to join the military unless they have strong suicidal tendencies and/or enjoy the effects of PTSD. And no, that's NOT a commentary on the troops, but on the elitist corporatocracy that sends them to fight and die for the profits of a handful of dirty old men.

And as for Obama wanting to tie this to federal funding for school districts, Hooray for him. It proves once again he is no Socialist. Were he, or were he even a real Liberal, he would completely do away with people having to pay out-of-pocket for higher education and set up a new system where college through at least the Bachelor's Degree level was free to all who qualify--just like it is in most of the civilized world. Oh but that's bad too, isn't it? Unconstitutional, right? Why don't you whine some more about the unconstitutionality of government-provided services on the taxpayer-funded Internet while kissing the butts of the neo-cons who actually HAVE wiped their butts with the Bill of Rights.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
People of Goldberg's political leaning, including people here on ATS, will often complain that we are giving handouts to people for the virtue of the fact all they are doing is breathing. Now when presented with a plan that will ask people to do something in exchange for the money being handed-out ("If you want this money, you will have to work for it) they are unhappy. Goldberg and people like him want it both ways.

[edit on 9-7-2008 by SaviorComplex]

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? No conservative wants money for nothing. If, as you stated, a conservative were presented with a "If you want this money you will have to work for it" situation, he would either want the money and do the work or decide the money was not worth the work and decline. That is what conservatism is all about - nothing obtained on the backs of others. So why do you say that J. Goldberg and "people like him" (by this I'm assuming you mean Conservatives?) want something for nothing?

Originally posted by Lilitu

I think you are missing the point. Obama's policy is not forced servitude, In a nutshell all it is saying is that if you want a college education and need government assistance then there is no free ride. Do not expect something for nothing. Requiring students to earn that assistance is a good thing and will teach them valuable skills they could not learn any other way.

I believe you are missing the point. Any true conservative wants the government to be out of the business of education. If the government would stop doling out money to anyone and everyone, the price of college would drop overnight. The reason the price is so high is because government gives people the money to go no matter how universities jack up the price. If no one could afford to go because it's too expensive, universities would be forced to drop the price of attendance.

Obama's program is forced servitude because the government is forcing students to take government loans and grants by artificially inflating the cost of higher education, and then the government would be forcing people to do service to obtain the money they are forced to get to go to college. So yes, it's only forced if someone wants to go to college or graduate middle school and high school.

Students can learn these skills you mentioned by doing what community service used to be called: volunteering.

[edit on 7/10/2008 by sc2099]

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Of course Republican talking points are always the God's honest truth, right?

They would not be, if I were a Republican. See, that is what you get for thinking that everyone who disagrees with the DNC is a republican. You'll find lots of people do - including me, a Libertarian. I disagree with the RNC too, but on ATS most of the propaganda is straight from DNC propagandist operatives. If you kindly point me to a RNC propagandist, I'll gladly point them out too.

Yeah, they're failures, all except the US Military. How many tens of thousands sign up for service just to get college money?

Umm..what? What in the world does this have to do with forced community service? As anyone can go to a respectable college for free if you put in the effort to make good grades, no one should be joining the military for college money.

Before 9/11 of course; nowadays anyone with the brains to get into college shouldn't be stupid enough to join the military unless they have strong suicidal tendencies and/or enjoy the effects of PTSD. And no, that's NOT a commentary on the troops, but on the elitist corporatocracy that sends them to fight and die for the profits of a handful of dirty old men.

Your DNC propaganda talking points are not relevant to the topic. Please propagandize elsewhere.

And as for Obama wanting to tie this to federal funding for school districts, Hooray for him. It proves once again he is no Socialist. Were he, or were he even a real Liberal, he would completely do away with people having to pay out-of-pocket for higher education and set up a new system where college through at least the Bachelor's Degree level was free to all who qualify--just like it is in most of the civilized world. Oh but that's bad too, isn't it? Unconstitutional, right? Why don't you whine some more about the unconstitutionality of government-provided services on the taxpayer-funded Internet while kissing the butts of the neo-cons who actually HAVE wiped their butts with the Bill of Rights.

For once, think past your narrow worldview and your need to turn everything into a political circus. This is NOT POLITICAL. This is FORCING PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO, AND IT WILL HARM THOSE OF US WHO DO COMMUNITY SERVICE. Take your partisan politics out of it.

Again, its obvious most people on ATS have never spent much time on community service. I have. Those of us who care about doing good in our communities because its the right thing to do realize this sort of thing is beyond the partisan garbage posted in this thread. Facts are facts: forcing people to do community service means they are no longer doing it because they want to, and it means they force those of us who enjoy doing community service into a babysitting role. It will harm our communities where community service is a big part of the social infrastructure. See past your own partisan propaganda.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Not meaning to offend or detract from the thread but...,

Again, its obvious most people on ATS have never spent much time on community service.

While your perception may be true of most people YOU have had experiences with on ATS, please avoid the generalization which lumps us all together. I'm sure I need not elaborate on why, or in what way this is a faulty generalization.

Just a point I felt compelled to make. Thank you, we now return you to your already fascinating dialog....

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
They would not be, if I were a Republican. See, that is what you get for thinking that everyone who disagrees with the DNC is a republican. You'll find lots of people do - including me, a Libertarian. I disagree with the RNC too, but on ATS most of the propaganda is straight from DNC propagandist operatives. If you kindly point me to a RNC propagandist, I'll gladly point them out too.

Ah, a Libertarian (code for Anarchist). Interesting you claim DNC "operatives" rule ATS. A little paranoia mixed in with your 18th Century fantasies?

Yeah, they're failures, all except the US Military. How many tens of thousands sign up for service just to get college money?

Umm..what? What in the world does this have to do with forced community service? As anyone can go to a respectable college for free if you put in the effort to make good grades, no one should be joining the military for college money.

You made the claim that requiring someone to do community service in order to get federal funding for college hurts charities. It has been pointed out, numerous times, that this program would be voluntary for students, just as joining the military for college money is also voluntary. The US Military, aside from its primary job of defending our nation, is also the nation's biggest welfare program; thousands join to get money for college and do... You guessed it... Service!!

Your DNC propaganda talking points are not relevant to the topic. Please propagandize elsewhere.

I'm not with the DNC. I'm voting Obama because out of all the choices, he's the one closest to my own philosophy with the best chance of winning. The DNC as it stands today isn't liberal enough for me.

For once, think past your narrow worldview and your need to turn everything into a political circus. This is NOT POLITICAL. This is FORCING PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO, AND IT WILL HARM THOSE OF US WHO DO COMMUNITY SERVICE. Take your partisan politics out of it.

You first!!

It has been pointed out to you that the source for this is highly biased, Obama did NOT say it would be mandatory for all students, and that this notion of "forced servitude" is complete hysteria. Acknowledge these facts, and take your own advice.

Again, its obvious most people on ATS have never spent much time on community service. I have. Those of us who care about doing good in our communities because its the right thing to do realize this sort of thing is beyond the partisan garbage posted in this thread. Facts are facts: forcing people to do community service means they are no longer doing it because they want to, and it means they force those of us who enjoy doing community service into a babysitting role. It will harm our communities where community service is a big part of the social infrastructure. See past your own partisan propaganda.

Again, YOU FIRST. Have you even considered that, even if what you're saying about this being forced on people were true (it's NOT), that it would not be packaged in such a way? That those students who might be asked to do this would first have the importance of such work instilled in them at an early age, so they DO want it?

[edit on 7/10/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by Maxmars

Again, its obvious most people on ATS have never spent much time on community service.

While your perception may be true of most people YOU have had experiences with on ATS, please avoid the generalization which lumps us all together. I'm sure I need not elaborate on why, or in what way this is a faulty generalization.

There is no faulty generalization made. See the bold. That is why I add in modifiers like that.

Most /= All

[edit on 10-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Ah, a Libertarian (code for Anarchist). Interesting you claim DNC "operatives" rule ATS. A little paranoia mixed in with your 18th Century fantasies?

This is why higher education is important. Then you'd know the difference between libertarian and anarchist.

As for the second line, your fellow DNC operatives would not be proud, your stepping over the protocol for how your supposed to respond when someone points out your a propagandist. As a reminder, your supposed to deflect and obfuscate - insulting me just makes it more obvious what your up to.

You made the claim that requiring someone to do community service in order to get federal funding for college hurts charities. It has been pointed out, numerous times, that this program would be voluntary for students, just as joining the military for college money is also voluntary.

Wrong. Most people don't join the military for the college money as there are easier ways to get it. However, tying forced community service into aid WOULD force people into community service. You are of course ignoring the multiple failures that already exist when people have attempted to tie sums of money into community service. It results in people exploiting the system and hurts the effectiveness of those in it for the right reason. This would cause failure on a massive scale.

It has been pointed out to you that the source for this is highly biased, Obama did NOT say it would be mandatory for all students, and that this notion of "forced servitude" is complete hysteria. Acknowledge these facts, and take your own advice.

Just because your too stepped in your propaganda to seperate yourself from politics doesn't mean no one else can. Politics is irrelevant to me when it comes to community service, and its obvious you have done little or no service or else you'd know this. It wouldn't matter to me if Bob Barr was for this, its still wrong.

Have you even considered that, even if what you're saying about this being forced on people were true (it's NOT), that it would not be packaged in such a way? That those students who might be asked to do this would first have the importance of such work instilled in them at an early age, so they DO want it?

Spoken from someone who has obviously never had to work with those forced into doing "community service." People do not suddenly love working for their community because they are forced to do it. In fact, it almost always makes them hate it. So if your goal is to turn future generations away from helping their community, GO FOR IT!

Leave your DNC talking points out of this.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Presumptively your assertion is that of the 141,310 members on ATS at least 70,656 have never performed community service. And you know this how, have you asked all of us?

Sorry. It is a generalization, and it IS faulty - unless you know of an ATS poll that I was unaware of (and therefore never participated in - rendering it faulty anyway).

(Sorry to be technically anal about this, but you wouldn't just accept the polite suggestion without a rebuttal.)

I find this news disturbing

Originally posted by Maxmars
Presumptively your assertion is that of the 141,310 members on ATS at least 70,656 have never performed community service. And you know this how, have you asked all of us?

Wrong. Exactly where have I defined the definition of most? I never knew most could only mean 50% + 1 = that would be a MAJORITY. Note I did not say MAJORITY, I said MOST within the context of the thread.

Originally posted by Maxmars
Sorry. It is a generalization, and it IS faulty - unless you know of an ATS poll that I was unaware of (and therefore never participated in - rendering it faulty anyway).

Logical fallacy of hasty generalization on your part does not constitute a mistake on part.

Originally posted by Maxmars
(Sorry to be technically anal about this, but you wouldn't just accept the polite suggestion without a rebuttal.)

Since your being so anal with trying to correct me, I'm just going to deny you the satisfaction. Of course this time you weren't correct in the first place. You would be if I had not said "most." It is hilarious that you feel the need to type out posts over this though. Really, if you feel the need to go around correcting people you should probably do it in PM.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
This is why higher education is important. Then you'd know the difference between libertarian and anarchist.

Having been a Libertarian for some time myself, attended meetings, etc. I can safely say that Libertarian philosophy is a direct road to anarchy. "Government so small you can drown it in a bathtub", to quote John Brown, can lead to nothing else. Nothing else that's any good for the rest of society, at least.

As for the second line, your fellow DNC operatives would not be proud, your stepping over the protocol for how your supposed to respond when someone points out your a propagandist. As a reminder, your supposed to deflect and obfuscate - insulting me just makes it more obvious what your up to.

And again, I'm no DNC propagandist. That you keep accusing me of such justifies any percieved insult you think I've hurled at you. You've already completely marginalized everything I have to say within your own mind, because in your paranoid state you have assumed everyone who disagrees with you must be a political operative from the opposition.

Wrong. Most people don't join the military for the college money as there are easier ways to get it.

Bull#. Before 9/11 I'd say a majority of soldiers did, in fact, join for the college money, especially in the Reserves and National Guard. Since the Iraq quagmire numbers have dwindled greatly, to a point where most recruiting offices are struggling to meet quotas. If, as your denial of money as a motivation suggests, it were purely a patriotic issue, there would be no shortage of recruits, and the amounts of money for college and $20K "signing bonuses" would be completely unnecessary--yet they exist. I would go so far as to say if no GI Bill had ever been passed, our military would have to be almost 70% draftees to reach current numbers. The number who join purely out of patriotism or to make the military a career is definitely a minority.

However, tying forced community service into aid WOULD force people into community service.

They have a choice to take the aid or not. Isn't that the justification given for the existence of other forms of servitude, such as debt? If you don't want to serve you don't have to. Get the money elsewhere. Which is why I say college should be free anyway, and eliminate the whole problem.

You are of course ignoring the multiple failures that already exist when people have attempted to tie sums of money into community service. It results in people exploiting the system and hurts the effectiveness of those in it for the right reason. This would cause failure on a massive scale.

You keep mentioning these "multiple failures". Could you please elaborate?

Just because your too stepped in your propaganda to seperate yourself from politics doesn't mean no one else can.

Again with your wild, insane accusations. How many times do I need to reiterate, I am NOT a member of the DNC nor am I an operative for them. I am a Socialist. I vote Democrat because independent parties, including the Socialist Party, haven't a chance in Hell under the current system, and I, like most Americans, have to vote for the lesser of evils to prevent worse atrocities than what we've already seen.

Politics is irrelevant to me when it comes to community service, and its obvious you have done little or no service or else you'd know this. It wouldn't matter to me if Bob Barr was for this, its still wrong.

And it's still voluntary. Christ, it hasn't even happened and you're acting like Obama wants to put kids on a chain gang! Man, you're whack.

Spoken from someone who has obviously never had to work with those forced into doing "community service." People do not suddenly love working for their community because they are forced to do it. In fact, it almost always makes them hate it. So if your goal is to turn future generations away from helping their community, GO FOR IT!

Blah blah blah Blah, blah blah Blah. This is ridiculous. There's no point talking to you anymore. You're either in a fantasy land, or you're deliberately baiting me to try and get me punished by the mods.



[edit on 7/10/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Having been a Libertarian for some time myself, attended meetings, etc. I can safely say that Libertarian philosophy is a direct road to anarchy. "Government so small you can drown it in a bathtub", to quote John Brown, can lead to nothing else. Nothing else that's any good for the rest of society, at least.

Right. You go from being a libertarian to a socialist. Yeah, I believe that one. As long as were making stuff up, I went from being a communist to a libertarian.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
And again, I'm no DNC propagandist. That you keep accusing me of such justifies any percieved insult you think I've hurled at you. You've already completely marginalized everything I have to say within your own mind, because in your paranoid state you have assumed everyone who disagrees with you must be a political operative from the opposition.

I again recommend you look at your propaganda guide. You need to work more on your deflecting and projecting.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Bull#. Before 9/11 I'd say a majority of soldiers did, in fact, join for the college money, especially in the Reserves and National Guard. Since the Iraq quagmire numbers have dwindled greatly, to a point where most recruiting offices are struggling to meet quotas. If, as your denial of money as a motivation suggests, it were purely a patriotic issue, there would be no shortage of recruits, and the amounts of money for college and $20K "signing bonuses" would be completely unnecessary--yet they exist. I would go so far as to say if no GI Bill had ever been passed, our military would have to be almost 70% draftees to reach current numbers. The number who join purely out of patriotism or to make the military a career is definitely a minority.

Facts are facts. There is no reason to join the military just for college, because you can get college full rides without nearly as much effort. If people are too dense to figure that out, I really feel little sympathy. You can get a full ride at any innumerable amount of respected state universities with little effort on your part beyond having good grades. Making up facts based on DNC propaganda isn't reality.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
They have a choice to take the aid or not. Isn't that the justification given for the existence of other forms of servitude, such as debt? If you don't want to serve you don't have to. Get the money elsewhere. Which is why I say college should be free anyway, and eliminate the whole problem.

Do you not understand the concept of externalities? There is a difference between this and taking on debt, since the externalities of taking on debt can be confined. However, yet again - when you FORCE PEOPLE to do community service it creates huge negative externalities both in their communities and on those of us who do it without being forced.

You keep mentioning these "multiple failures". Could you please elaborate?

A number of state programs, and others like Americorps, are graveyards to quite a few "community service for cash" failures. The problem, as I have stated, is that people do it just for the cash and not for the greater good - and as such, they usually hamper community service efforts because they don't care about helping.

And it's still voluntary. Christ, it hasn't even happened and you're acting like Obama wants to put kids on a chain gang! Man, you're whack.

Again, spoken from someone who has never done much community service. Look up negative externalities, and think about it. I realize everything is about politics to you, and you feel a need to support the DNC propaganda, but this isn't about politics for me. It doesn't matter who supports it, or doesn't support it. Its a bad idea.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

This has been happening in Canada for years, the government calls it 'work experience' for uninformed students. I wanted to learn baking but all I did was wash tables at Macdonald's (for free) if I wanted to graduate with full credits... it's just a ripoff and roaring fraud, pure and simple.

This is an slippery slope indeed.

I smell the stink of corporate influence in this. I would have to say Obama is selling out big time, and McCain's NO BETTER.

I'm just pretending I'm American because politics in Canada is an even BIGGER joke.

I just wish aliens would come to Earth and give us the green light, the thumbs up for an bloody revolution.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Right. You go from being a libertarian to a socialist. Yeah, I believe that one. As long as were making stuff up, I went from being a communist to a libertarian.

This will be my final response to you, because it's obvious you're trolling.

I was a Libertarian back in the mid '90s. The platform back then included such craziness as an open border with Mexico (look it up!!). Then I got smart and realized Libertarians were living in a fantasy world and that their philosophy was completely unrealistic in the very real, late 20th-early 21st Century world. In searching for better ways I turned to Liberalism, and eventually to Socialism as I came to realize that any lesser philosophy serves only to enrich the Elite at the expense of the People. So yes, I did a complete 180. It happens. I'm living proof.

I again recommend you look at your propaganda guide. You need to work more on your deflecting and projecting.

And you need to work on your reading comprehension, your crippling paranoia, or both.

Facts are facts.

Then provide yours. Put up or shut up.

There is no reason to join the military just for college, because you can get college full rides without nearly as much effort. If people are too dense to figure that out, I really feel little sympathy. You can get a full ride at any innumerable amount of respected state universities with little effort on your part beyond having good grades.

If what you say is true more than 20% of Americans would have a Bachelor's or higher education. Since they do not, I'd have to surmise you're just blowing smoke.

Making up facts based on DNC propaganda isn't reality.

Every such accusation strengthens my position and weakens your argument.

Do you not understand the concept of externalities? There is a difference between this and taking on debt, since the externalities of taking on debt can be confined. However, yet again - when you FORCE PEOPLE to do community service it creates huge negative externalities both in their communities and on those of us who do it without being forced.

Do you not understand the concept of comprehending what the candidate actually said? Nobody is being forced to do this.

A number of state programs, and others like Americorps, are graveyards to quite a few "community service for cash" failures. The problem, as I have stated, is that people do it just for the cash and not for the greater good - and as such, they usually hamper community service efforts because they don't care about helping.

That's funny, from what I've found Americorps seems to be doing quite well. Maybe you just have some ideological block that makes anything less than genuine altruism (at least in community service) suspect. Sad, because I often find such attitudes turn people off from volunteerism more than anything. Nobody wants to work with a "political officer" questioning their motives every five minutes.

Again, spoken from someone who has never done much community service. Look up negative externalities, and think about it. I realize everything is about politics to you, and you feel a need to support the DNC propaganda, but this isn't about politics for me. It doesn't matter who supports it, or doesn't support it. Its a bad idea.

Oh, but I think it IS about politics for you. The only way anarchists can justify their desire for a nation with almost no government is by convincing themselves that only through personal works can community service be done, and if a person needs any more motivation than base altruism then all the work they do is soiled. The fact that people want something for their work, community service or not, damages the credibility of the Libertarian agenda because it challenges the notion that if all government services are removed, people will come out by the millions to take up the slack out of the goodness of their hearts--something that anyone with half a brain knows is nonsense, because if that were the case there would be no work left to do right here and right now. The problems would have been solved already. But guess what? People, by and large, want something for their efforts! What a shock! Private charity will NOT solve the world's, or this nation's, ills--certainly not on a purely volunteer basis. No, this is as political for you as it is for anyone else. To claim otherwise proves you a liar and a scoundrel.

Good day to you, "Sir".

[edit on 7/10/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
I was a Libertarian back in the mid '90s. The platform back then included such craziness as an open border with Mexico (look it up!!).

There are lots of people who claim party labels when they would never be placed there by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Anyone who truly believes what they preach is not going to go from one extremity to the other, not if they really believed in it. So your a very bad libertarian or a very bad socialist. Of course I've seen lots of internet self-proclaimed libertarians talk about the need for government regulation and higher taxes, so again I note how sad the state of political knowledge is in this country.

Like I said, if you were a libertarian, then I was a communist. In any case, its sad to lose people to the socialist propaganda brigade. Then again...anyone who could easily enough fall for the socialist and populist propaganda probably wasn't a very good libertarian, so I'm agnostic about it.

If what you say is true more than 20% of Americans would have a Bachelor's or higher education. Since they do not, I'd have to surmise you're just blowing smoke.

Sure - I'm sure since I and quite a few of my friends from college all went for free on merit based (not need based) aid, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just making it up.

I never said doing well in college was easy (if you went to a respectable one, at least), but it is less time consuming than devoting your life to the military and then doing it afterward. That people refuse to put effort into making it short and painless is unsurprising. Bachelor's degrees are worthless, and the amount of people with them is growing at a huge rate. In 20 years, we are projected to reach 40-50%, depending on the statistics you want to believe.

Do you not understand the concept of comprehending what the candidate actually said? Nobody is being forced to do this.

Since you’re committed to following the party propaganda, I'll only briefly say it again: dangling money in front of people to do something which most of us do for free does not attract those with altruistic motives. Recruiting these people creates a negative externality which harms community service efforts.

Nearly everything else you said was a classic attempt to troll me. So instead of feeding the troll, I'm just going to ignore it.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
Fair enough, but why did you tie it to college assistance instead of education as a whole beforehand?

I think I have aswered your question but if you prefer to go on believing in a wingnut conspiracy about slavery then knock yourself out.

Originally posted by burdman30ott6I was homeschooled for part of my grade school years.

Is that so? Oh dear me, I would have never guessed.

reply to post by Lilitu


I'd have never guessed you were ever in a psychologist's office... well, at least not sitting behind the desk.

And just to clarify, I'm not the one who made the connection between this and slavery. I consider it to be a bunch of crap, but it isn't forced servitude. It all boils down to government control over every aspect of our lives and the fact that the government has WAY too much of it. I don't understand why that concept seems so difficult for you to glean from my previous posts... but apparently it is.

This is wrong the government should not mandate volunteer service.

Perhaps a national service corp can be offered to help the willing with college expenses but in no way linked to existing private community volunteer programs.

On a side not I believe pre 9/11 many joined the military to better their personal situation whether that be education, discipline or both. As jobs become more and more scarce the military career may be more appealling! Desperate people carrying guns...and following orders...