What do a billion Muslims really think?

reply to post by poet1b

U.S. forces certainly did use guerrilla war tactics, which they didn't have to learn from the Native American tribes, more anti-U.S. propaganda, but that is a far cry from terrorism.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder.

The British thought little of the colonials considering them uncultured, uncivilized brutes who would not stand up to a fair fight.

The Boston Tea Party is a textbook example of terrorism:
"An attack on non-combatants or unrelated infrastructure to inspire fear into a nation or people for a political purpose or motivation."

Blowing up that merchant ship full of tea was essentially the Colonial reply to the British Tea Tax, and was aimed at forcing them to stop taxation.

Like it or not, it was terrorism; it may hard for you to accept your forefathers were actually guerrillas who engaged in asymmetrical warfare (terrorism) but in hindsight, that's exactly what they did.

Christian pilgrims to the holy city were badly abused by the Muslim soldiers when they tried to visit the city. This is why the Crusades were fought.

Your ignorance and lack of general knowledge shines through yet again.

The Muslims allowed Christian pilgrimages and free worship for all the "People of the Book" inside Jerusalem:

Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions.

www.mideastweb.org...

The Crusades were fought for one reason alone: European prejudice combined with jealousy of the expansion of the Muslim armies, and fear they would become ultimately too powerful.

It was 'pre-emptive' military action; the same kind of attitude used as a justification to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.

The First Crusade started essentially because the Seljuk Turks got a little too close for comfort and the Byzantine Empire seeked help from the Pope to issue a religious decree for all Christians to come and intervene.

Hell the Crusaders were probably the most intolerant of the all the factions in the Middle East at the time, when they took control of Jerusalem they massacred everyone, including fellow Christians: www.historynet.com...

You ignore how many lives were saved by avoiding an invasion of Japan, U.S. soldiers as well as Japanese, but it is far easier for you to throw cheap shot accusations that do not approach the truth.

Again: The mass killing of civilians (non-combatants) to instill fear into a nation (Japan) in order to further a political purpose (the Japanese Surrender).

Twist it, turn it, spin it any way you want, the outcome is the same. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are probably the two most glaring examples of terrorism in modern history.

So Muslims showed their respect for the Holy City of Jerusalem by conquering it and invading it?

As did the European Christians when they came down from France, massacred anyone along the way, besieged Jerusalem, burnt it to a crisp, and then proceeded to massacre anyone they though "collaborated" with the Arabs: Siege of Jerusalem

Once the Crusaders had breached the outer walls and entered the city almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem was killed over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning.

According to Raymond of Aguilers "men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." The chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi states the Jewish defenders sought refuge in their synagogue, but the "Franks burned it over their heads", killing everyone inside. The Crusaders circled the flaming building while singing "Christ, We Adore Thee!".

san.beck.org...

Sound very compassionate or tolerant to you?

Don't try to paint the Christians as being any more merciful or tolerant than the Muslims were at the time. They were far from it.
The Crusades were the Christian equivalent of a Jihad against Islam.
The Pope issued a decree, much like a Fatwa, that stated all Christians must strive to return Jerusalem under Christian control.
He gave his blessing to the armies that left Europe.

The Crusaders were religious fanatics of greatest degree.

It is pathetic, that is what it is.

The only thing I find pathetic here is someone trying so hard to defend America's past actions and vilifying Muslims for doing the exact same thing the Americans did, and the Christian Crusaders did in the past.

So when Americans and Christians fight dirty and attack civilians, it's "Fighting for Freedom", but when the Muslims do it oh that's just plain terrorism.
The double standard you make when you fail to make the distinction between terrorism & resistance IS PATHETIC.

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Terrorism my behind, please tell me how dumping tea into the Boston Harbor compares to blowing up women and children in the market square?

No ship was blown up. Seems that you are willing to make gross distortions of events to pretend that you are right, when not making out right lies.

Here is an account of the Boston Tea party by Samuel Cooper

www.revolutionarywararchives.org...

"On leaving the church, they proceeded in the same order in which they entered it, down Milk Street through that part of town which led to Gray’s and Tiletson’s wharves where the tea ships lay. Arrived at the wharves they divided into three troops each with a leader gained possession of the ships quietly and proceeded to lighten them of their cargo by hoisting out the boxes and emptying their contents into the dock. No noise was heard except the occasional clink of the hatchet in opening the boxes and the whole business was performed with so much expedition that before 10 o’clock that night the entire cargo of the three vessels were deposited in the docks. Many a wishful eye was directed to the piles of tea which lay in the docks and one poor fellow (5) who could not resist the temptation had filled the lining of his cloak with about a bushel of the plants. He was soon observed by the crowd and the process of lightening him of his burden was short. He was dragged a little distance on the wharf to a barrel and was soon furnished with a coat of tar and shavings."

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Being that the Revolutionary war was fought over two hundred years ago, if the Boston Tea party is the closest thing you can come up with as an example as terrorism being practiced by the U.S. revolutionaries, then you are clutching at straws.

Then this statement beats all. It takes a truly twisted perspective to write this line. How you can write this is beyond me.

"The Crusades were fought for one reason alone: European prejudice combined with jealousy of the expansion of the Muslim armies, and fear they would become ultimately too powerful.

Jealousy of the Expansion of their Armies! How Dare the Europeans defend themselves against Muslim aggression. I have provided clear evidence of the complete and total lack of tolerance that Muslims demonstrate, and you put this garbage out to justify Muslim agression and label Europeans as terrorists for defending their own territory. You denial of the realities of the history of the struggle between the two cultures is amazingly twisted.

At the time of the start of the Crusades, Muslims had already not only conquered Jerusalem, but Spain as well, and were establishing military outposts in Italy. The Crusades were a response to Muslim agression. Tell me, what right did the Muslims have to conquer Jerusalem in the first place. You might also want to pay attention to the slave practices of the Muslims who were notorious for grabing people and forcing them into slavery. The Turks used to joke, "Are there any more Russians in Russia?"

Heck, within this century, in this, our modern age, Muslims were practicing genocide, killing, raping, and pillaging in Somalia like barbarians from half a millenium ago. How blind you are?

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Being that the Revolutionary war was fought over two hundred years ago, if the Boston Tea party is the closest thing you can come up with as an example as terrorism being practiced by the U.S. revolutionaries, then you are clutching at straws.

Then this statement beats all. It takes a truly twisted perspective to write this line. How you can write this is beyond me.

"The Crusades were fought for one reason alone: European prejudice combined with jealousy of the expansion of the Muslim armies, and fear they would become ultimately too powerful.

Jealousy of the Expansion of their Armies! How Dare the Europeans defend themselves against Muslim aggression. I have provided clear evidence of the complete and total lack of tolerance that Muslims demonstrate, and you put this garbage out to justify Muslim agression and label Europeans as terrorists for defending their own territory. You denial of the realities of the history of the struggle between the two cultures is amazingly twisted.

At the time of the start of the Crusades, Muslims had already not only conquered Jerusalem, but Spain as well, and were establishing military outposts in Italy. The Crusades were a response to Muslim agression. Tell me, what right did the Muslims have to conquer Jerusalem in the first place. You might also want to pay attention to the slave practices of the Muslims who were notorious for grabing people and forcing them into slavery. The Turks used to joke, "Are there any more Russians in Russia?"

Heck, within this century, in this, our modern age, Muslims were practicing genocide, killing, raping, and pillaging in Somalia like barbarians from half a millenium ago. How blind you are?

OK, it looks to me like this thread has gone way off topic. This is about what the vast majority of Muslims feel about modern terrorism, politics and human rights. And it appears that despite whatever individual, highly publicized events people like to bring up, modern Muslims are for equal rights for all, peace and the practice of non-violence. Unfortunately, random acts of kindness aren't often newsworthy.

Now, unless you feel that David Duke represents all Christians the way that people assume that Bin Ladin represents all Muslims, you have to accept that Islam is a peaceful religion based on common practice.

I went to highschool with a guy who was from Saudi Arabia. His mother was American and from my hometown so that is why he came back here to go to highschool. We were pretty good friends, he was very down to earth. He was a muslim, not very religious or devout though. He was just like everyone else at the highschool. Fast forward a few years and he is architecture school in NYC during 9-11. He was subjected to some harsh racism and discrimination just for being a muslim. He returned to Saudi and began his career. I hadn't seen him in several years until his cousin's wedding. He was not the same person. No sense of humor, very cold and detacched. He had become very religious. I tried to spark up some conversation about different topics and he repeatedly remained aloof and stated "you wouldn't understand".

I bring this up to get this thread back to its original intent. "What muslims really think". I think my friends story gives an example of how our actions and prejudices can affect the "average" muslim. I feel that our country, and the west in general, had changed him, and not in a good way. Our actions at home and abroad further alienate people of the muslim faith, and until that changes we are going to have problems.

Our political policies/alliances with Israel are further evidence our inequality of treatment. We constantly supply aid/weapons/money to Israel, yet refuse to even have diplomatic relations with the leadership of Palestine. and NO, I am not anti-semitic. I believe the nation of Israel should exist, but not at the exclusion of Palestine. They should not be mutually exclusive. Both should be sovereign nations with equal rights to holy sites and natural resources. I believe solving the Israel/Palestine conflict is the keystone to peace in the middle east and ultimately ending terrorism. IMO.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


I would like to hope so, but the problem is that the radicals seem to be dictating the dialogue. People want to claim that the Christians were the bad guys in the crusades, but they were in fact responding to Muslim aggression, but here are all these pro-Muslims claiming the opposite, which doesn't help the whole, we are a people of peace claim. Then there is the matter of Jerusalem and Israel. The Muslims took this area by force a thousand years ago, and now that the west is taking a small piece back, Muslims want to cry foul, and claim that they have the right to eradicate Israel, and sorry, the argument doesn't hold water. Besides that is war mongering on the part of Muslims.

I would like to see more moderate Muslims speaking out against these honor killings, instead of trying to pretend that they are not going on. This whole honor killing thing makes me extremely distrustful of the Muslim world. It is horribly barbaric. Europe has welcomed Muslims into their nations, and the payback seems to be total disrespect for Western beliefs and customs.

If you want to pretend that this is not true, then you are not looking at the situation honestly.

reply to post by The Oak


The U.S. and Israel and the west in general has tried to work with the Palestinians. The Palestinians are the ones who refuse to offer compromise.

The media certainly does paint a picture of Christianity Vs. Islam. The West Vs. the Arab world.

Majorities in most countries believe that women should have the same legal rights as men: They should have the right to vote, to hold any job outside the home that they qualify for, and to hold leadership positions at the cabinet and national council levels

Refreshing to be reminded that the average citizen in many of those countries probably has their hands full with their everyday life. Although they might not agree with many of the policies/laws adopted by their government, there is little they can do. Sounds very similar to here in the States. We aren't that different afterall

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Rasobasi420

 

I would like to hope so, but the problem is that the radicals seem to be dictating the dialogue. People want to claim that the Christians were the bad guys in the crusades, but they were in fact responding to Muslim aggression, but here are all these pro-Muslims claiming the opposite, which doesn't help the whole, we are a people of peace claim.

From our friend Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org...
Siege of Jerusalem
Main article: Siege of Jerusalem (1099)

The Jews and Muslims fought together to defend Jerusalem against the invading Franks. They were unsuccessful though and on 15 July 1099 the crusaders entered the city.[16] Again, they proceeded to massacre the remaining Jewish and Muslim civilians and pillaged or destroyed mosques and the city itself.[17] The "isolation, alienation and fear"[1] felt by the Franks so far from home helps to explain the atrocities they committed, including the cannibalism which was recorded after the Siege of Maarat in 1098.[18] As a result of the First Crusade, several small Crusader states were created, notably the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

I would like to see more moderate Muslims speaking out against these honor killings, instead of trying to pretend that they are not going on.

You'd see plenty of it if you payed attention to more than US media, Fox news and CNN.

This whole honor killing thing makes me extremely distrustful of the Muslim world. It is horribly barbaric. Europe has welcomed Muslims into their nations, and the payback seems to be total disrespect for Western beliefs and customs.

If you want to pretend that this is not true, then you are not looking at the situation honestly.

Honor Killings

Muslim majority countries

Most Islamic religious authorities prohibit extra-legal punishments such as honor killings, since they consider the practice to be a cultural issue.[38] As certain pre-Islamic cultures still have regional influence, those who practice honour killing use Islam to justify honour killing, but there is no support for the act in the religion itself. The death penalty cannot always be applied in the Sharia as murders are a type of "qisas" ("retaliation") crime 2-178. This means that the family of the deceased should be offered the choice of capital punishment or "diyya" ("blood money") and no execution can take place without them opting for death. Because a relative(s) is usually responsible for the honor killing, it is unlikely that the family of the deceased will punish one of their own for the crime.[39] However other punishments can be legislated and the murderer cannot pardon himself.[40]

Please learn the difference between religion and culture. There are many Christian villages in the middle east that practice honor killings as well. It's a cultural problem and not one isolated to Islam. In fact, some Hindus practice this, but in very very few places is it condoned by law.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Wikipedia has no credibility as a source of information. I could go change the entry myself. Did the city surrender before the successful siege?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

It is correct to claim the founders of the U.S. were terrorists when they weren't?

It is correct to say that bombing cities two hundred years later proves that the Americans at the time of the U.S. revolution were terrorist?

So essentially, anyone who fights in a war and bombs other nations is a terrorist. Nice 1984 speak, completely destroy the definition of the word.

It is pathetic, that is what it is.

One mans terrorist is another mans patriot and freedom fighter. War is terrorism I don't care what side you're on.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by LOYAL


Learn your history youngins, Gemany was attacking US trade ships durring WWII before we decided to get into the war. The japanes attacked and declared war on the US.

Look at the number of muslims that agree with 9-11 its 7% of 1.9 billion, you math wizards can figure out exactly how many the equates to. Roughly what, 20 to 30 million muslims believe in killing us because of their religion? That seems like alot of people to me.

reply to post by projectvxn


In other words, forget logic and reason, you will believe what every you choose to believe, even when you are clearly proven wrong. This is the reason the negotiations break down and wars are fought. Congratulations on your obstinance.

According to you and your supporters, dumping tea in a harbor is the same as blowing people up in a market place, blowing up embassies, kidnapping and beheading people. You are without a moral compass.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

In other words, forget logic and reason, you will believe what every you choose to believe, even when you are clearly proven wrong. This is the reason the negotiations break down and wars are fought. Congratulations on your obstinance.

According to you and your supporters, dumping tea in a harbor is the same as blowing people up in a market place, blowing up embassies, kidnapping and beheading people. You are without a moral compass.

Um, no. This isn't true. You are distorting my position. I don't support any of those acts. But I don't blanket an entire civilization with such an accusation either. Nor do I deny that the things that are happening aren't real. I know they are. But I'm not going to mark every muslim as a terrorist either. And part of winning a war of ideologies(which is what a war on terror is) we need to listen. And right now we're not doing that because the sound of bombs exploding is too loud.

I know not all Muslims are terrorist. I believe that most Muslims would like to see a blending of the two cultures. The thing is, that claiming that the Boston Tea party was an act of terrorism when it clearly was not, does not help the effort to single out the radical Muslims who are terrorists.

It is not enough to say that the Crusades were wrong because Christians attacked Muslims without admitting that Muslims began attacking Christians first.

It is not enough to say that honor killings are not approved by the community, the Muslim community needs to take action to start publicly condemning honor killings. By not publicly condemning these honor killings, the Muslim commmunity is encouraging it, as well as the liberal western community that refuses to do anything to stop this barbaric act.

The key is, when the two cultures start to intermarry, women and men from both sides, then they will find peace. As long as Honor killings, mainly the murder of Muslim women for marrying non-muslim men, are allowed to continue, the two communities will remain segregated, and the hostilities will continue to get worse.

reply to post by poet1b



I think the real argument is "Who has the longest running Moral High ground", and the truth is, no one does.

But I do agree with you, human beings in general often use their religion to commit horrible acts that thinking people are appalled by. We could argue about who did what first, the truth is the flag of every religion is dripping in the blood of another. What we need to do is stop killing each other period. And thank you for explaining your position a little better.

The thing is, alot of people come in here screaming "Muslim this and muslim that" and don't even bother to explain why they feel the way they feel. Instead they spend their time arguing about why someone else doesn't share their feelings on the matter in the same way...Insults fly, and then we have a huge miscommunication. This has been hurting this thread up until now. Glad we're finally getting somewhere.


[edit on 23-5-2008 by projectvxn]

[edit on 23-5-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn


And a lot of Muslims are on here saying the U.S. did this or the U.S. did that, or Israel did this, you get my drift.

Personally, I never have thought that the U.S. should have troops in Saudi Arabia, or stationed around the world for that matter. I am tired of paying for this giant military machine that only defends U.S. corporate interests at the expense of U.S. workers. U.S. originated International Corporations go around the world doing horrible things in the name of the U.S., making the rest of us look bad. I recognize this, and a great many Americans do, I believe a majority at this point in time, after the GW admin., but the sad fact is that the people doing this stuff have been succeeding in fooling too many of the people for too long.

At the same time, the jihadists in the Muslim world are equally as bad, and then you throw in these honor killings, Wow is all I can say.

Maybe you can add to this side of the reality of the situation?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by projectvxn

 

And a lot of Muslims are on here saying the U.S. did this or the U.S. did that, or Israel did this, you get my drift.

Personally, I never have thought that the U.S. should have troops in Saudi Arabia, or stationed around the world for that matter. I am tired of paying for this giant military machine that only defends U.S. corporate interests at the expense of U.S. workers. U.S. originated International Corporations go around the world doing horrible things in the name of the U.S., making the rest of us look bad. I recognize this, and a great many Americans do, I believe a majority at this point in time, after the GW admin., but the sad fact is that the people doing this stuff have been succeeding in fooling too many of the people for too long.

At the same time, the jihadists in the Muslim world are equally as bad, and then you throw in these honor killings, Wow is all I can say.

Maybe you can add to this side of the reality of the situation?

I think you just hit the nail on the head about this entire situation. It all boils down to this; the only people being heard on either side are those that yell the loudest, and the loudest yellers seem to be the ones that are calling for the other side's head. We can't hear the moderate Muslims above the constant flow of crap that is being fed to us about the radicals trying to blow everything up. The moderates can't hear what we are saying because of the noise coming from the people that are crying to turn the entire Middle East into a sheet of glass. We are scared they are going to blow us up and they are scared we are going to do the same.

How do we solve this? By cutting out the mouthpieces and trying to open a line of communication with those that want the same thing we do.

I have this belief that an idea is a genie in a bottle, once released, it has the power to change the world.

We can use this fabulous tool called the internet to start being honest with one another, expressing our fears and doubts, hopes and dreams, and maybe we can learn that we are indeed all very much the same.