Blairs Legacy

Reply to Sublime620

Thatcher was hated for different reasons - I'm pretty sure she wasn't an economic genius, but she certainly knew enough.

Thatcher was hated because she broke the unions, unions who probably DID have too much power and who had brought the country to its knees.

She WOULD negotiate, but only up to a point - and then she pulled the plug, sent in the cops and broke the unions.
Mines were closed down and government subsidised industries were lost - perhaps for ever.

Taxpayers were supporting these industries, and there simply wasn't enough money in the coffers to do it.

We had something called "The Winter of Discontent" where rubbish was piled high in the streets, power cuts were a regular occurence, inflation was rife and many other terrible things were happening because a small few who were unelected wanted to dictate to the government how the country should be run.
So she broke them, and stripped away many of their rights and powers.

She also hurt an awfull lot of people in the process, and that's why she was hated then and to a lesser extent, hated today.

Read up on the miners strikes and the winter of discontent, and be sure to look at the unions back then as well, and also the nationalised industries - see what an awful place the UK was less than 30 years ago.

Then look at the country today - she did it, for the most part.

[edit on 17/4/2008 by budski]

reply to post by infinite


I think Major did more than he's given credit for. He wasn't the strongest or most effective Prime Minister, but he wasn't a failure either. He was the Tory antidote to Thatcher - a collegial, quieter person who was more willing to listen to others than force others to listen to him. Northern Ireland is a good example - he didn't bring peace, but he built solid foundations for Blair and both should be kept in mind on that issue.

If anything, Major was the Conservative equivalent of Jim Callaghan - well meaning, but a hostage to circumstances. We all remember him for Black Wednesday, but guess who took us into the Exchange Rate Mechanism in the first place? That's right, Mrs. Thatcher. Yet Major took the flak for it.

Overall, I agree with Budski on Thatcher - she did some unpopular things, she bullied her Cabinet and she wasn't the most caring leader we've had, but she is probably the most necessary Prime Minister the UK has had since Winston Churchill. Now and again a country gets the right leader for the right time - both Thatcher and Churchill fall into this category. Both had the personality, the policies and the determination to sort out Britain's problems. She won't be remembered simply for being the first female Prime Minister... it'll be much more than that.

Let's not forget, Major came from a very poor background. He went from a bus conductor to a banker and later became Prime Minister. Major broke the class system in my opinion and showed Britain that anyone can make it in our society.

reply to post by Ste2652


A small point - yes thatcher took us into the ERM, but wasn't it currency speculators who actually did the damage?

Infinite - agreed, although lets not forget that thatcher was a grocers daughter, and remember the way she spoke before all those elocution lessons.

Originally posted by Knights
I have to agree budski.

Although, I think Blair had a natural talent, gift of the gab with the media and knew when to drop out of power. Avoiding many unpleasentries and keeping a mediocre name for himself.

Whereas Brown has never really been too popular has he? I know many a person that resent him purely on the basis he is Scottish. I think Blair may have known that Brown could be the perfect scapegoat and used it to his own advantage.

Just my two cents.

All Tony Blair has is a gift for fiction. He really ought to find a less competitive skill. Oh, I forgot he knows how to kiss royal butaay!

reply to post by budski


Indeed they did, but again it was Major who took the flak for it. I suppose it was his handling of the crisis that was criticised, but there wasn't much he could do. The damage was done by the City, and the blame was dumped on the government (led by a man who had no say in joining the ERM).

There are parallels with the current credit crunch - the banks lent to one another in a ridiculous fashion, and now the government is being blamed for the mess. If the financial sector doesn't clean up its act, it'll happen again too.

reply to post by Ste2652


I don't really blame the government for the current mess, although I have plenty of reservations about them bailing out northern rock.

It's hard to introduce legislation to control banking practices in a free market economy.

And now that the banks have dug themselves into a rather large hole, all they can do is moan and cry for help.

If they weren't so vital, I'd say let them suffer.

One area of islamic law I admire is the banking system - no usury, or chargin interest as our banks call it.

And yes, major was more than a little unfortunate - a bit like brown now, although he was chancellor, so....

Originally posted by budski
And yes, major was more than a little unfortunate - a bit like brown now, although he was chancellor, so....

So was Major!

I take your point though. A lot of being in government is about luck and perception - something it's very hard to do anything about. Major was unfortunate, and so is Brown. There's still time for him to turn it around, but if he doesn't I can't see Labour letting him stick around very long if they lose the next election.

reply to post by Ste2652


I should have been clearer - brown was chancellor for an awful lot longer than major, and he's broken every promise he's ever made, so the mess is pretty much of his own making if he gets kicked out.

reply to post by budski


budski, I agree.

Gordon's "Golden Armour" is nothing now. It will be difficult to see how the Prime Minister could remain Prime Minister in this public mood.

reply to post by infinite


There's also the perception that he is cold and arrogant - this may not be true, but to many people, that's how he comes across.

The fake smiles when he became PM only made matters worse.
usual brown

fake smile brown

Then he saw england lose a rugby match

reply to post by budski


Here is Tony's real legacy:

reply to post by budski


Sport fans want to ban Gordon Brown from visiting or giving a backing to any sports team. People think he brings bad luck. Seriously, no joke

reply to post by infinite


Yes, I'd heard that - the name JONAH Brown has been thrown around once or twice

But hey, if he's going to get the blame for everything else,might as well lump that on him as well

Saw this news article today which I thought was relevant. In my last post I pointed out my opinion that Blair was using Brown as a scapegoat allowing him to distance himself before things went from bad to worse. Anyway the article:

Lord Levy criticised Gordon Brown over his leadership

One of Tony Blair's closest allies has claimed the former prime minister believed Gordon Brown "could never beat" Tory leader David Cameron at the polls.

Mr Blair also described his chancellor and successor in Number 10 as a "liar", Lord Levy said.

His comments - categorically denied by Mr Blair - come in the controversial peer's memoirs, serialised in the Mail on Sunday newspaper.

Mr Blair "told me on a number of occasions he was convinced Gordon 'could never beat Cameron'," Lord Levy wrote. He said the former premier felt he could have won a fourth term had he not stood down last summer.

"But Gordon? 'He can't defeat Cameron,' Tony told me. Blair believed Cameron had major strengths - political timing, a winning personality and a natural ability to communicate to Middle England that Gordon would be unable to match," Lord Levy added.

Mr Blair's spokesman said: "Tony Blair doesn't agree with the views attributed to him by Lord Levy and fully believes Labour with Gordon Brown's leadership can win the next election.

"Tony Blair said when he stood down that he would be 100% loyal to Gordon Brown and that continues to be the case."

Lord Levy's claims heap further pressure on the Prime Minister as he struggles to maintain his authority amid Labour rebellions over taxation and the detention of terrorist suspects.

Source

reply to post by Knights


This is actually Lord Levy, the man arrested over the 'cash for honours' scandal, talking. Levy seems to have sold out to the Daily Mail and is saying this kind of thing to help sell his memoirs, hence he has an ulterior motive. They're being serialised in the Mail from today, so I imagine the editor of the paper and the publishers of the book are asking him to say some controversial things to gain some publicity (and therefore sales).

Funny, isn't it? I can't recall hearing Levy opposing Brown back in June last year. But when that book deal comes along...

[edit on 27/4/08 by Ste2652]

reply to post by budski


Funniest thing is London MPs telling Brown to stay away from Ken Livingston increase the bad luck bug bites Ken (seriously, no joke)

reply to post by infinite


I'm sure that was mentioned on question time last week in the mayoral election debate.

Personally, I really like boris - he's the archetypal upper class buffoon, and yet he has a sharp and agile mind (apparently) although you'd never know it to listen to him.

But I think that I may be confusing blokey fondness with competence.

If brown was a little warmer, I might have more sympathy for him.

Might.

Still doubfull though.

Although I have to say that if you look at levy's career, he's never been shy about telling the odd porkie - and nor has he been above less savoury things.

This just seems like a little payback from levy - or an attempt at...

reply to post by budski


Levy's probably a crook, there just wasn't enough proof to convict him because all the conversations involved double meanings and euphemisms. The CPS report acknowledged this: in their final report,they didn't rule out the possibility that cash had changed hands for honours but they did admit they had been unable to find any evidence that would stand up in court.

I don't think Blair was personally involved in any of this to be honest, but both he and the Labour Party should have been more diligent about who donated to them and what was given back in return.

As I've said before, this wasn't the first case of this happening and I doubt it'll be the last. I'd be surprised if all the parties didn't reward their supporters with seats in the House of Lords.

reply to post by Ste2652


Fair point, but this labour government has had as bad a record in sleaze as the last lot of tories had.

At least.

"Free from sleaze" I believe the election slogan was....

Just another unkept promise really...