Massacre in Tibet!

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The Dalai Lama used the words "cultural genocide". Beijing immediately described him as a terrorist.

It didn't happen that way. They labeled as a terrorist because they believe he incited the riots with the "Dalai" clique, the same people who incited the rebellion in 1959 and 1989. Every reason to blame them.

Anniversary of 1959 riots and already prepared boxes of stones. Plus the fact that China arrested many people NOT having a Chinese passport which came from over the border from India and Nepal.

Independent writer from the Indian government

CHINESE DAMAGE CONTROL EXERCISE

By B. Raman

2. The arrests, which started on March17, 2008, have not so far been as massive as originally feared. The total number of Tibetan youth arrested so far has been estimated at about 150. What the Chinese have been doing is to arrest identified past offenders, who had spent time in the jail in the past for undesirable activities and had been released after they had completed their prison terms. In the initial wave of arrests, they have also been looking for persons without valid documents.

3. The Chinese have been trying to prove that those, who attacked the Han and Hui settlers and members of the security forces, were not sons of the soil, who, according to the Chinese, are happy with the Chinese rule and have excellent relations with the Hans, but infiltrators from outside. In the initial phase of enquiries, they are focussing on those Tibetans, who have relatives in India and the West in order to see whether any of them had recently visited their relatives abroad or whether their relatives living abroad had recently visited them.

4. The Chinese are convinced that the disturbances were not spontaneous, but pre-meditated and well organised. In his customary press conference after the conclusion of the session of the National People's Congress (NPC) held at Bejing on March 18, 2008, the Prime Minister, Mr. Wen Jiabo, linked the disturbances to the Olympic Games and described them as "organized, premeditated, masterminded and instigated by the Dalai Lama clique".

5. The campaign against the Dalai Lama and his set-up in Dharamsala has been stepped up by the Chinese authorities as well as the government-controlled media in Beijing and Lhasa. He has been accused of telling lies when he talked of a cultural genocide in Tibet in his press conference of March 16. He has been projected as insincere and deceitful. In this connection, reference is being made to his protestations of his belief in non-violent methods and the actual violence in Tibet and Sichuan.

6. Even while condemning the Dalai Lama in strong language, the Chinese have kept open the possibility of a dialogue with him. Mr. Wen said at his press conference: "The door of dialogue is still open to Dalai, so long as he gives up the position for "Tibet Independence", so long as he recognizes Tibet and Taiwan as inalienable parts of the Chinese territory." But he remained silent on the Dalai Lama's assertion that he was advocating genuine autonomy for Tibet and not independence.

7. This is an intriguing part of the entire revolt in Tibet. While the Dalai Lama had been repeatedly saying even the past that his aim is genuine autonomy and not independence, the monks and the youth, who participated in the uprising between March 10 and 14, 2008, were calling for independence. The Tibetan Youth Congress elements in India and the West do not seem to agree with the Dalai Lama that the Tibetans would be satisfied with genuine autonomy. It is apparent that the Tibetan Youth Congress played an active role in organising the world-wide demonstrations on March 10,2008, which in Tibet and Sichuan took a violent anti-Han turn

8. The questions arising from this are: Was the Dalai Lama aware of the plans of the Tibetan Youth Congress? If so, why did he not try to stop them? If not, is he really in effective control of the Youth Congress? Was the violent uprising in Lhasa pre-meditated by the Youth Congress? If not, who was behind it? No convincing answers to these questions are available. The Chinese authorities see the entire thing as deliberately planned and organised by the Youth Congress with the knowledge of the Dalai Lama..

9. In a strongly-worded commentary based on a report from the Lhasa Bureau of the Government-owned Hsinhua news agency published on March 18, 2008, the Government-owned "People's Daily" wrote as follows: " Memories of horror were alive again. Rioting that erupted in Lhasa on Friday resembled two previous riots in 1959 and 1989, only in its cruelty and always indisputable links to peace-preaching Dalai Lama.......In the shocking degree of cruelty which local Tibetans said they had not seen in their whole lives, "brutal" was an understatement of the true picture, but the word was only reserved for the mob, and not for the policemen......Such hostility was not "non-violence" as Dalai preached, but what the "revered" monk practiced. Religious leaders, local Tibetans and other residents stood out and condemned the riot. It is obvious that the latest well-planned sabotage in Lhasa was another bloody exercise of Dalai clique's political conspiracy....In recent years, the Dalai clique has been telling the world that they have stopped seeking "Tibetan independence". However, it is just another huge lie. In an effort to fan up the international community to link the "Tibet issue" with the Beijing Olympics, he repeatedly preached during his frequent international trips that the year 2008 is of key importance and the Olympic Games would be the "last chance" for the Tibetans. How can the Dalai clique justify themselves when the Tibetan Youth Congress vowed to pursue "Tibet independence" at the cost of blood and lives in a March 10 statement, which says "they would never give up the fight for Tibet independence"? ....After the riot broke out in Lhasa, the Dalai clique maintained real-time contacts through varied channels with the rioters, and dictated instructions to his hard core devotees and synchronized their moves, police sources say. Evidence again mounted against the Dalai coterie's trumpet for "non-violence", exposing them as a deceitful bunch."

10. The Chinese have been avoiding giving an impression of panic in Beijing over the developments. All the senior officials of the Tibet Administration and party apparatus, who had gone to Beijing to attend the NPC session, continue to be there and are letting their subordinates handle the situation in Tibet and Sichuan.

11. Before starting the arrests in Tibet on March 17, 2008, the local authorities ordered all foreign tourists and journalists to leave the region for their own safety. They also stopped issuing permits for foreigners to visit Tibet. Prime Minister Wen has, however, promised that once the situation improved, the Government would take the initiative in taking a team of foreign journalists to Tibet.

(The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai. E-mail: [email protected])

Which explains there lack of education, abuse of alcohol, poor health and standard of living?

I cannot speak for Australia and the Aborigines, but things are changing there and changes were largely obstructed by the previous Australian Prime Minister. That is no longer the case.

In New Zealand my son is Maori. There is considerable intermarriage of all cultures in New Zealand. There has been a considerable effort to remedy past injustice and make amends both tangible and intangible.

In New Zealand some tribes wanted association with Europeans and others did not. A treaty was signed with Maori which promised rights in return for recognition of the Crown.

Certainly modern Maori are not restrained from expressing themselves culturally or politically.

As Obama would say the way forward is not to look backwards, but in Tibet you can't even get to a point of reconcillaition because the oppression is still happening.

If I were to make a comparison for the situation in Tibet it is like the Nazi occupation of Germany and yes some do get dragged away in the night to camps where they are never seen again.

That is not acceptable in the 21st century and China needs to be dragged into the modern world. Technology and a sporting event does not make China a modern nation.

To observe that the Tibetan Youth Congress had fore knowledge somehow implied the Dalai Lama knew aswell is stretching it totally.

The Dalai lama is seen as having too much restraint by the young who clamour for action.

This happens in every society where brash young men want to take action and ignore older wiser counsel. That's not conspiracy. That's just human nature.

As for real time communication, it does not surprise me that young people who were likely behind it had perfectly positioned themselves with cellular phones able to take still and video pictures.

Gosh that's just a function of youth. I can hardly imagine the Dalai Lama furiously texting his mates in Tibet.

Take a good pinch of salt.

I just heard an interesting interview with the two german reporters (Kristin Kupfer and Georg Blume) who were the last forced to leave Tibet.
Just a few tidbits from this interview
- every single news coming out of Beijing or Dharamsala is at least suspicious, therefor eyewitness interviews would have been crucial

-they've got interviews with china critical Tibetians who clearly said, that the protesters had gone too far with the violence and the police did not shoot

-the motion to expell every foreign journalists is a stupid move from Beijing since it makes them appear to have something to hide

-it was no problem to get interviews with both sides of the conflict in Lhasa

-the reasons for the riot were social and economic discrimination, not a cry for independence

-the military deployment is exzessive and nonsensical

-at first, they thought the military police has been the guilty part, but after doing their interviews, this became more and more questionable

-they didn't leave on free will, they've been forced to

for the german speaking, the interview can be found here

As said, just some tidbits, but interesting nonetheless and it once more fortifies my believe, that the world is 99% shades of grey and only to a little extend black and white.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by Phil J. Fry]

Is dodging all you can do Chinawhite (and other Chinese)?

Your sole means of justification for Beijing's policies in Tibet are to compare the situation with the past in other nations and cast aspersions on the character of the Dalai Lama.

Originally posted by chinawhite

those places have citizenship in those places with all the benefits that said citizenship brings

Which explains there lack of education, abuse of alcohol, poor health and standard of living?

First, a dodge. Quick, let's get this off-topic by focussing on the current situation of a minority of Australian citizens. No, what explains those things are roughly 180 years of "cultural genocide" or other "genocidal acts". Acts we have now apologised for. Acts we have been working to overcome and undo for around thrity years. Thirty years to undo 180 years work? Unlikely. But at least we are doing something.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The Dalai Lama used the words "cultural genocide".

Define what your meaning of "cultural genocide" means

The destruction through deliberate, overt acts or deliberate, covert acts of a cultural identity, a people or their culture. "Cultural genocide" includes things such as "ethnic cleansing" or deliberate, forced re-education or mis-education. "Cultural genocide" includes the deliberate, methodical and slow creation of a foreign majority in occupied lands.

How long until Beijing holds a referendum in Tibet asking whether "Tibetans" want to be independent or a natural, contiguous part of the PRC and includes ethnic-Han immigrants in its definition of "Tibetan"?

The Tibetans enjoy more cultural freedom than the aboriginals have in Australia.

Really, tribal Tibetans can enforce traditional laws?

Tibetan monasteries and their environs are protected from "development"?

What exactly are you saying what the Tibetans can't do?.What culture they had died with the abuse of alcohol and educational policy. The Native Americans have practically lost all their cultural values and live on casinos and their ritual dances are more to do with drawing in money than actually living traditionally. Spend a few hours dancing then retreat back to the BMW

Ah, now who's generalising? I hope you've actually been there.

You spent years and years destroying traditional aboriginal society and then show us "PR" aboriginal dances.

I, personally, have spent years and years living in Central Australia where my mother is a nurse working in clinics devoted solely to the health of Aboriginal people. I, personally, have spent years and years working with anti-petrol sniffing campaigns. I, personally, have spent years and years working with Homelands organisations to help Aborigines gain some independence from CDEP.

However, I personally have already admitted my nation's guilt in the crimes you are desparate to accuse us of. See, I already admitted national/societal guilt. Your charges are meaningless.

The government plans to forcefully take children into "foster" care for their protection there latest acts reminiscent of the stolen generation.

a) Wrong. Do some research.
b) That policy was created by Little Johnny Wayward, who I have voted against in every election in which he stood. I have also already refused to give blanket public support to him or his government and its policies. Which is exactly what the Chinese community in ATS refuses to do: criticise Beijing.

One could argue that development is the one which destroyed culture

No, one couldn't. That development is younger than my children. Mabo is already a decade and a half old.

as the culmination of three decades of race relations which included land rights and High Court judgements, a national, formal apology for all of the acts which could come under the heading of "Genocidal Acts"

And?.

Does that somehow excuse what we did. Does it bring back their traditions?.

No. It does't. I have already said that. What it does is show that we recognise we were wrong.

What it does is give us the moral high ground to criticise Chinese policies in Tibet, Chinese presence in Tibet.

Your attempts to throw mud at the West in the hope it will stick are doomed to fail precisely because we made that apology.

We WERE wrong. China IS wrong.

And that's the difference that nullifies your "many countries have committed human rights violations" justification.

Regardless of the unbelievable patheticness of the mere idea of even attempting to use such an argument to justify such actions. Just how venal are you willing to be?

Many people have committed murder. It doesn't justify another person doing it.

Why haven't you got the balls to criticise "your" government? You see "us" criticising "our" governments all the time.

Watch:

John Howard lied about Children Overboard.
The Tampa Incident was stage-managed B.S.
The Pacific Solution was wrong.
"Sorry" should have been said ten years ago.
Camp X-ray is the height (or depth) of hypocrisy.
Camp X-ray is a human rights violation.
Gough Whitlam never should have recognised Indonesia's claim over East Timor.
Waterboarding is torture.

The Chinese are backwards people whose violations are being exposed to the World. Tibet should and will overshadow the Olympics in China because the truth of the matter must come out. The truth is coming out. and it spells DOOM for China and its' followers.

reply to post by LooseLipsSinkShips


Let's be more specific and call it the Chinese government please. I can't stand when people lump the Bush admin. as America, and I think we should extend the same courtesy to the people of China. I'm sure there are many good people there who hate their government and disagree with their actions, but are not able to express it like we are here.

You are right, my post was only aimed at those members of the Chinese Internet Brigade that has struck the ATS community recently.

reply to post by LooseLipsSinkShips


I figured as much, I just don't want any non-government Chinese folks to take what we are saying the wrong way and think we mean China as a whole. That only plays into the hands of the disinfo agents. We are fond of the people of China, and we hope you all experience basic freedoms one day, on your terms of course.

Are you guys working for the American government?.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Are you guys working for the American government?.

Not at all, I work for a major health insurance company (which can be just as bad ). I detest our government, especially the Bush administration that is currently creating such a huge mess for my children and their children to clean up. I feel the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake, I feel our election system is f-ed up beyond all belief, I feel that our current government is full of criminals and as soon as we figure out a way to fix it, I will do everything in my power to participate.

Your turn....do you work for the Chinese government? Do you disagree with anything your government does, and if so please share.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by 27jd]

Let's be more specific and call it the Chinese government please. I can't stand when people lump the Bush admin. as America, and I think we should extend the same courtesy to the people of China. I'm sure there are many good people there who hate their government and disagree with their actions, but are not able to express it like we are here.

You're quite right 27id

I have some very good friends who are Chinese citizens and it is not the people nor even the country of China which I dislike. It is what they have done to the Tibetans which I abhorr.

When talking about Nazi Germany I draw a distinction between Nazis and the German people.



PS China White I don't work for the Americans just so you know.

I work for Truth

reply to post by chinawhite


I would not work for my government if it were the last job on earth. How are you doing chinawhite?

Originally posted by 27jd
Your turn....do you work for the Chinese government? Do you disagree with anything your government does, and if so please share.

No of course I dont.

I live in Australia. My passport states I am Australian by nationality.

If you mean the Australian government, yes i disagree with the Rudd governments plan to scrap work choices as I see them as benefitcal to the Australian economy.

If you mean the government of the PRC then Yes, I disagree with their lack of action on the environment and pollution but understand its a byproduct of development. I also hate their non-distinction between ownership and land rights.


I am a person who agrees with the notion of a "eye for a eye" and find it absurd that people in "developed" countries can get away with murder so easy. 25 years at 80,000 is a waste of tax-payers money considering the fact that the "pen" does not guarantee that 25 years down the fact that these people will be reformed. Anybody can come up with statistics of re-offenders

news.bbc.co.uk...

Chinese police opened fire and wounded four protesters "in self-defence" last Sunday in a Tibetan area of Sichuan province, the Xinhua news agency says.
It is the first time China has admitted injuring anyone since anti-Chinese protests in Tibet began last week.


abcnews.go.com...
China might bar live television broadcasts from Tiananmen Square during the Beijing Olympics, apparently unnerved by the recent outburst of unrest among Tibetans and fearful of protests in the heart of the Chinese capital.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Is dodging all you can do Chinawhite

Define dodging. If you mean by that I am not condoning or praising the actions of the PRC government than yes, I am dodging the question. But that is only because I dont have the right to judge someone else, either do you or any other government or people who have committed crimes more "wrong"

No, what explains those things are roughly 180 years of "cultural genocide" or other "genocidal acts".

Wasn't those acts designed to improve their situation?. Giving then centrelink payments and places in university should actually improve their situation giving them a leg up. They are living on the outskirts of society by their own choice living their "own" culture

The destruction through deliberate, overt acts or deliberate, covert acts of a cultural identity, a people or their culture. "Cultural genocide" includes things such as "ethnic cleansing" or deliberate, forced re-education or mis-education. "Cultural genocide" includes the deliberate, methodical and slow creation of a foreign majority in occupied lands.

And where is proof this is happening?. The Australian government argued exactly the same thing when they introduced the white Australia policy


Do you actually know that what they claim as Tibet and which the majority of Tibetan live is not in the TAR but in regions with majority Han Chinese owning to the fact that there have been many wars between each country which changed hands over the centuries. Maybe thats what his referring to since Lhasa holds many religious icons which are profitable for Tourism and which is marketed by the Chinese government

In Lhasa the vast majority of people are Tibetans, Lhasa as in the TAR

Really, tribal Tibetans can enforce traditional laws?

Your refering to this

Right to tribal law scrapped
www.theaustralian.news.com.au...

Tibetan monasteries and their environs are protected from "development"?

Self inflicted development. Buddhism in is present state is commercialized to make money. Religion now days is big business for gullible people willing to pay for enlightenment. Across Asia this is happening, if you ever have been to the more developed areas of Asia you will have seen this. Come on, budda tee-shirts

However, I personally have already admitted my nation's guilt in the crimes you are desparate to accuse us of.

And that somehow makes it all better?

b) That policy was created by Little Johnny Wayward, who I have voted against in every election in which he stood.

And because you voted again it means it did not happen?. Both sides of parliament voted for it, actually it was more or less accepted nation wide. You obvious read the newspaper and know of the opinion polls

What it does is give us the moral high ground to criticise Chinese policies in Tibet, Chinese presence in Tibet.

What policies?

Why haven't you got the balls to criticise "your" government? You see "us" criticising "our" governments all the time.

Your government is MY government. The thing is, I agree with some points Labor and Liberal both make.

reply to post by chinawhite


I appreciate the answers, and I agree about the pollution and such, that's another thing I can't stand about the Bush admin, their lack of concern for our planet. I also agree with not paying tax dollars feeding and sheltering murderers, rapists, and pedophiles. In most cases, they should be put to death as soon as they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, IMO.

I find it ridiculous that when someone has a differing opinion they must be a government agent. Just because someone does not share your view of history does not mean you can attack the persons integrity

reply to post by chinawhite


You may be legit, but I am a bit confused as to why so many highly nationalistic Chinese members with very similar posting styles are flooding these Tibet threads. I'm sure you have read the link regarding internet brigades, and if you are a free thinking individual you have to recognize that what we're seeing fits that description perfectly. This is a site based primarily on conspiracies, so don't be surprised if when an obvious state sponsored disinfo campaign pops up here, people point it out. I'm still confused what compels these Chinese hypernationalists to be so persistant here, but it sure puts fuel on the conspiracy fire.

And don't be so sure you know my opinion. I'm sure you've already read my posts saying I don't have a strong opinion regarding Tibet's independence. I'm not educated enough on the region to take a side as far as opinions. But I am also not stupid, and when the Chinese military moves in on a protest or unrest and orders the media out, I can clearly see sh*t's going to go down. There are ways to stop riots without having to kill alot of people.


[edit on 22-3-2008 by 27jd]

reply to post by chinawhite


Yes, I know my gov't is your gov't, that's why I put the quotation marks " " around the yours, mine and ours. Because I know you're not living in China (you've said that often enough).

My point is that too often the Chinese (national and ethnic) can see no wrong done by Beijing, regardless of where those Chinese were born, grew up or live.

But they are way too quick on the trigger when it comes to screaming about the abuses China and the Chinese have suffered at foreigners' (generally Japanese) hands.