Skepticism of 9/11 Truth is Denial for Comfort Sake

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by NewWorldOver

 

Thanks for the taking the time to reply to me, New World Over. There is no doubt in my mind that there is more to the attacks than what we have been told. I admit this field is not my area of expertise so I took the time to read up on your idea concerning the CIA's ties to Al-Qaeda. It seems there was some connection in the past but as for what remains of the connection now I am uncertain.

I like to take all things into consideration before coming to a logical conclusion and never rule anything out but instead review the evidence to see what it reveals. Having an open mind doesn't mean believing everything that comes along so this issue will remain up in the air for now regarding my personal beliefs of the attack. It is an interesting theory that will have to remain just that for the time being- a theory.

Thanks for your input but in my honest opinion, more facts will have to come to light before I accept the fact that the CIA was ultimately responsible for 9-11 (an idea that currently sounds far fetched to me).

Sorry about that. I gave you a star for being civil and even-minded. You haven't painted anything as 'crazy' or insulted us for discussing it.

Can you provide us with the names of the eye witnesses who saw bombs being place in the WTC?

It would tickle me pink if people had the will-power to read the 9/11 truth sites themself. There are dozens of them, and all it requires is a Google search. No offense, but I don't keep a big book of 9/11 facts in front of me with a list of names and dates.

so far, the only skeptic argument has been to regurgitate the current, unacceptable official explanation. I mean, anything other than the official explanation is just another Conspiracy Theory by definition, right?

reply to post by NewWorldOver


So one has to go to 9/11 truth sites to find witnesses? Why haven't these witnesses gone to the police, the press, written their representatives, hired lawyers, etc...?

It staggers the sound mind to accept the fact that people still believe the Official Lie in whole or in part. People never seem to investigate beyond the headlines: One poster actually believes that the ' calls ' from alleged cells phones on Flt. 93 were evidence that the Official Lie had some validity: Upon close examination, though, it appears that there is NO evidence that has not been totally controlled and' edited ' by the government. NO proof of calls is given: Voice morphs are not only possible but indicated: Asking your Mom over and over if she ' believes ' her son? The ' son ' who gives his last name to his Mother? And keeps repeating " You believe me, don't you Mom?" Thats after talking to his handler on the side..the guy directing the GAME.

NO evidence exists, that we have been shown, that proves the Official Lie to be true: None. All allegations, and suppositions of the most absurd sorts..assumptions not based on fact but to make the lie work. How could anyone read David Ray Griffen's well documented books and come away thinking that all is peachy in Bushie land? HOW? ONLY denial..chronic, pronounced and ever present, could account for believing the lies that the government has told about these events.

One would actually have to WANT to deny the truth to accept the story that the cabal spins: Cheney was caught in charge by Mineta in the bunker, standing down the Pentagon's defenses. No rational explanation has been given: Cheney, the black hearted monster he is, simply said Mineta was wrong.. Wrong? Mineta was detailed and sure, and knew damn well that Cheney was ' fully in charge ' that day..and the ' plane ' coming in and being announced? Cheney won't talk about that at all..caught!!

There are so MANY crimes..it is the absolute overwhelming NUMBER of treasonous acts and murderous assaults that staggers us: Once you get past their TORTURE, and then swallow some LOSS of RIGHTS, then you can start thinking about them setting 9-11 up as a means of advancing their agenda. that is what they did, and it is easily proven. But there is no FORUM that will tell the truth..the media is controlled and will not tell the truth: Only the internet does any more.

But even here where thr proofs are exhibited and shown to all; there are those who will deny what they see..deny that it is what it is...because they cannot, and will not, believe that there entire future rests in the hands of murdering, traitorous villains who occupy the highest positions of power in this nation. The whole 9-11 events was a giant psy op, and anyone who cannot see that has issues that transcend the truth.

reply to post by scientist


One can have all sorts of theories about what happened(how, why, etc..).
It's when political agendas start trumping scientific evidence that us skeptics take issue. The facts are that most scientists/investigators don't subscribe to the 9/11 Truth theories.

reply to post by eyewitness86



It would appear that there's a common theme for the sources of the claim about Leon Mineta and Dick Cheney. My question is whether or not there are other corrorborating sources that aren't merely left wing parroting outlets?





Norman Mineta Confirms His Testimony with Members of ...Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 ... for Dick Cheney and Reveals Lynn Cheney Was Also in PEOC Bunker Before Attack ...
www.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 Former Transportation Secretary Also Reveals Lynn Cheney Was in PEOC Bunker and ...
infowars.com/articles/sept11/mineta_confirms_cheney_ordered_911_stand_down.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Digg - Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down ...He also reveals that Lynn Cheney was in the PEOC bunker, and that he suspected the .... Mineta DOES NOT say that he heard Cheney order a stand down. ...
digg.com/world_news/Norman_Mineta_Confirms_That_Dick_Cheney_Ordered_Stand_Down_on_9_11 - 93k - Cached - Similar pages

Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11Mineta Testimony on Cheney Stand Down/shoot Down Censored ... Norman Mineta revealed that Lynn Cheney was also in the PEOC bunker already at the time of his ...
bushstole04.com/911/mineta_confirms.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 ...Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down… ... omitted from the report-- that Dick Cheney was in a bunker giving a stand-down order prior ...
donoevil.propeller.com/story/2007/06/26/norman-mineta-confirms-that-dick-cheney-ordered-stand-down-on-911 - 144k - Cached - Similar pages

Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 ...Norman Mineta revealed that Lynn Cheney was also in the PEOC bunker ... alongside him– that Mineta was indeed talking about a stand down order not to shoot ...
21stcenturycicero.wordpress.com/.../norman-mineta-confirms-that-dick-cheney-ordered-stand-down-on-911/ - 135k - Cached - Similar pages

DOT Mineta Confirms Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 | Dabble ...Dot Mineta Confirms Cheney Ordered Stand Down On 9/11 ... Lynn Cheney Was in PEOC Bunker and Contradicts 9/11 Commission Report's Account of Dick Cheney's ...
dabble.com/node/39599698 - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

David Icke Website - Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney ...Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 ... in the PEOC (Presidential Emergency Operations Center) bunker on the morning of 9/11. ...
www.davidicke.com/content/view/7519/48/ - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

UNCENSORED » Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand ...Norman Mineta Confirms That Dick Cheney Ordered Stand Down on 9/11 ... Norman Mineta revealed that Lynn Cheney was also in the PEOC bunker already at the ...
uncensored.co.nz/2007/06/27/norman-mineta-confirms-that-dick-cheney-ordered-stand-down-on-911/ - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

Cheney Caught Ordering Air Force Standdown on 9/11Cheney Caught Ordering Air Force Stand down on September 11, 2001 ... MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming ...
www.welfarestate.com/wtc/cheney-911-coup.htm - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

Originally posted by eyewitness86One poster actually believes that the ' calls ' from alleged cells phones on Flt. 93 were evidence that the Official Lie had some validity

It was me who said that. If I remember correctly, there were dozens of calls made to friends and family from the hostages on the flight. To completely dismiss this because it is possible the evidence was faked is faulty logic. Family members came forward and verified the calls they received from the passengers. I cannot, using logic and reason, automatically assume a conspiracy. In my opinion, the burden of proof is on the people claiming these conversations were faked, exaggerated, distorted, fabricated, etc.

Do I believe everything the media has told us concerning the attacks? Not remotely. But I also cannot automatically accept every conspiracy theory that comes down the pipe. Is there some doubt as to the veracity of some of the phone calls? Of course. But there are others I believe are 100% authentic.

Again, this is not my area of expertise and I have learned a lot from the members of this board and this very thread. Still though, I have to be cautious and consider all the evidence- not only the evidence that supports my distrust of the American government.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Seriously, your insulting.

Basically, if I may, your argument is one of either I believe what you do, or I am an idiot. Correct?

There is a very heavy political tinge to your argument as well as an ineffectual attempt to limit debate by painting anyone who disagrees with you as beyond hope.

It's one of the oldest tricks in debate. That is frame the debate as you see it, within your own rules, on your own time, and demand complete capitulation that your view is the only view or............personal insults fly. Which, conversely, is the easiest way to spot someone who lacks the ability to adequately defend themselves, or their positions.

To me, something that is really telling is the ease in which (some, not all!) truthers go non-linear. I have always believed that those with the facts on their side tend to be calmer, and less emotional. People who get very emotional in arguments, like this, tend to because the facts just aren't on their side. Oh, they want them to be and wish with everything they have they were. But, they aren't and they know it- even if at a subconscious level. They react this way because you are providing hard, cold evidence that does not line up with their reality. In turn, they can't reject the facts so, they reject you. This manifests itself in name calling, put-downs and often, outright hostility.

The bottom line, to me; there is no reasoning to be done. Or even a sharing of points/counter points. This post is about expressing anger at those who defy the OPs sense of reality, which is heavily politically biased in nature.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the OPs opinions - after all, aren't we here to discuss divergent opinions? My beef is with, essentially, calling me (not personally) a fool because we don't buy into the notions of shaped charges, vast conspiracies involving thousands, holograms, etc.

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
reply to post by NewWorldOver

 

Seriously, your insulting.

Basically, if I may, your argument is one of either I believe what you do, or I am an idiot. Correct?

We don't need skeptics. It's not the least bit insulting to let you know - we do not need you. Not only do we not need you, we are tired of debating the same facts over and over with you.

Basically, if you may, any argument that the official story is a lie, leads us to be crazy conspiracy theory nuts. Correct?

So why are you still here?

As I said - the skeptics are emotionally and mentally incapable of discussing the 9/11 truth subject WITHOUT clinging desperately to the official story. That's why I think we should leave the lot of you behind. If you don't believe the 9/11 'conspiracy' then stay out of the message boards, settle down and watch some television.

reply to post by NewWorldOver

Sorry about that. I gave you a star for being civil and even-minded. You haven't painted anything as 'crazy' or insulted us for discussing it.

Thanks! But what is a star? I'm a total Newbie... as if that wasn't obvious.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Thank you for proving my point.

No, I don't think your nuts. I do think your emotionally invested in an outcome and come hell or high water, there are no other possibilities than yours. My position has been, and remains, your post has a whole lot more going on with it than the surface argument.

Your attachment to your position eliminates you from any hope of finding the truth. In fact, the only one not willing to consider other possibilities is you. I haven't said your point of view is not needed. I haven't said I am tired of debating "facts". I haven't said you, or anyone else, should stop talking.

What's most remarkable to me is, essentially, you embody the behavior you accuse me of.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by SlightlyAbovePar]

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

We don't need skeptics. It's not the least bit insulting to let you know - we do not need you. Not only do we not need you, we are tired of debating the same facts over and over with you.

As I said - the skeptics are emotionally and mentally incapable of discussing the 9/11 truth subject WITHOUT clinging desperately to the official story. That's why I think we should leave the lot of you behind. If you don't believe the 9/11 'conspiracy' then stay out of the message boards, settle down and watch some television.

Let me translate this into terms that are probably more accurate to the OP's thoughts:

You people who depend on evidence and facts aren't mentally capable of accepting the insane theories of this fringe movement WITHOUT demanding some sort of evidence. I wish all of us who love to play WoW and pretend we are actually animated warriors could just move to an island and leave all you idiots behind! But since we neither have the resources nor the organizational skills to actually get away from you people with rational thought processes, you could at least let us have our beloved Internet...pretty please

Much like most of the "truth" movement, this thread is completely pointless and is going nowhere.

[edit: removed quote of entire precedding post]

You are entirely too personally invested in this thread to call it 'pointless'. To throw around so many pompous and arrogant statements as you have... take the high-road and leave. Be my guest.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by NewWorldOver]



Quoting - How to...

[edit on 11-12-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
We don't need skeptics. It's not the least bit insulting to let you know - we do not need you. Not only do we not need you, we are tired of debating the same facts over and over with you.

Basically, if you may, any argument that the official story is a lie, leads us to be crazy conspiracy theory nuts. Correct?

So why are you still here?

As I said - the skeptics are emotionally and mentally incapable of discussing the 9/11 truth subject WITHOUT clinging desperately to the official story. That's why I think we should leave the lot of you behind. If you don't believe the 9/11 'conspiracy' then stay out of the message boards, settle down and watch some television.

Well thank you for that contribution. You've been here, what? 2 weeks and you're telling members how to, or not to post? Why don't you leave that to the staff?

BTW, who is "us"?

It should be well understood that 'us' is the body of 9/11 truthers. People who believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy.

It should also be well understood that the 9/11 truth movement is alot older than my registration date, so what relevance does that have?

I don't believe the 9/11 truth movement should even acknowledge skeptics anymore - that is a personal opinion that other people will most likely decry as unfair or bigoted, for that reason I am only going to say it a third time and leave it at that - the 9/11 truth movement does not need to satisfy skeptics, we should stop wasting time on them altogether and recognize denial and skepticism as a legitimate roadblock that we can overcome - by MOVING ON. Moving past it.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
We don't need skeptics. It's not the least bit insulting to let you know - we do not need you. Not only do we not need you, we are tired of debating the same facts over and over with you.

Oh yes we do!

You're new here, and may not be very much aware of the evolution of this site, or the involvement of people like myself.

I've been involved in "government conspiracies" since joining MUFON in 1979. Since then I've helped run or organize conspiracy-themed BBS's, CompuServe discussion groups, and ATS. For more than 25 years, I've been intimately involved in helping those who speculate about conspiracies come together and share ideas. And with that in mind, I have no hesitation in saying that I believe skeptics are the most important thing for us.

As we refine our theories, we need the skeptics to keep us honest and help us understand where we need more data.

As we present our theories, we need the skeptics to test our presentation so that we may know that if we sway a skeptic, we can sway the world.

We need skeptics.

I welcome skeptics.

ATS has always encouraged a balanced dialogue between skeptics and conspiracists.

And with that in mind, the most important thing is to remember we can disagree without being disagreeable. Civility and decorum are required here... from everyone.


If you think you don't need skeptics, then you're not really interested in truth and instead only want to see one point of view prevail.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Cool, I still think I know what "truth movement" you're talking about. Been there before. That being said, you WILL treat other members with courtesy or you can go back to your website and tell them that YOU got banned here as well. Another merit badge.

Consider the T&C which you agreed to when you registered.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by NewWorldOver

 

Cool, I still think I know what "truth movement" you're talking about. Been there before. That being said, you WILL treat other members with courtesy or you can go back to your website and tell them that YOU got banned here as well. Another merit badge.

Consider the T&C which you agreed to when you registered.

If you say so. The condescending nature in which StudioGuy and others speak on these message boards leads me to wonder where the line is drawn. Telling me to 'leave the hard stuff to the grown ups' etc. I have not retaliated and I won't attempt to from now on.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by NewWorldOver]

NewWorldOver, I'd just like to know what you are proposing as the next step then? You keep saying to leave the non-believers behind and move on... to what?