faith + 1 [question for bible beleivers]

reply to post by Gorman91


oops, didn't see your post, just skipped right to helen's.:bnghd:

my bad, will give a good reply tomorrow...ok, technically 1 in the morning is already tomorrow, but i meant a more reasonable hour tomorrow.

and now to reply (though the hour is hardly any more reasonable than it was last night)

Originally posted by Gorman91
Maddness, your right that science will cure all of man's problems. But it's simply that all your evidences and all your long list of poorly written excuses will never change what the vast majority of the world already thinks. Why do you bother?

because i don't think that the argument ad populum is anything more than a logical fallacy

i don't care what the majority of people think, that doesn't change that they're simply not being logical

And I have looked at the other side. I've considered it, and I know my life would be better without God. But the things that have happened in my life simply makes it that I will never doubt him any longer. There was a time that I would claim that maybe God is real, maybe not. But after several deaths in my family and the after effects, combined with freaking weired dreams, I will never doubt any more. It is this fact that makes belief in God a one way street.

yes, but all of these events can be explained rationally and scientifically if you just take the time to examine them properly instead of instantly asserting that which you are predisposed to.

There will always be events that prove people's faiths, or change them. Atheists will sit on their keyboard all day making long lists of things why God doesn't exist, but others who have had events in their life will change. That's the way it is.

explained above, these things are always explainable
good example is NDEs, they can now be recreated in a lab yet they're touted as proving the existence of god/an afterlife.

And madness, you still have yet to prove to me HOW I'm ignorant. You have your ends, but no means. You've stated nothing but long lists of things that religion has caused, but nothing that shows how my theology (Christian-Universalist) is making me dumb. I believe most everything science states, but you still call me ignorant. I beg you to tell me the simple reasoning of HOW. What is it about me that you see that makes me any more different in intelligence then you.

first off, ignorance doesn't equal intelligence, it means lack of proper knowledge and understanding of something particular.

your ignorance is simple
you believe that which has no logical standing.

You successfully pulled a Hillary Clinton Response of saying things without answering.

You cannot, and will not ever, be able to scientifically prove the things that have happened where I live.

Here'e a short list of some of the more recent (I live in a semi-haunted house, if you want to know)

-For 4 years my Grandmother lived here. she lived in pain. It was so long that I grew accustomed to her loud cries at night when her medicines put her kidneys into failure. After she died, 1 week to be exact, a loud cry from her room would be heard around 2-3 am. Another in my family was the first to hear it. I laughed at it (doubting it all at the time). But then I heard it. And repeatedly heard it. I even plan to put a recorder in her room one day when I get around to it.

-In my room, 2 odd things happened. One day, I was sleeping in my bed. I had my pillow pulled out from me. Being so tired, I though it fell, and I grabbed it off the floor. I was so tired that I thought it was a repeating dream when it happened for the 5th time. So, on the sixth time, I grabbed t right as it was being pulled out, and looked. No one was there, and it wasn't a dream. I ran the hell out of my room to drink some coffee and take a breath. Also, every once in a while, my ear phones have the same happen to them. Being pulled out or moved when I'm sleeping or not home, respectively.

-I've seen a mothman-like figure outside my window when I was 8. It wasn't a dream, and I ran like hell out of my room.

-Things moving around when no one's home.

Etc, etc. There is no scientific reason for these things. There never has been nor ever will be. Nothing I know can repeat the sound of a dieing lady or pull a pillow from you while you sleep.


Again, these are personal events, and only a few amongst the others.

Also, there's plenty of logical standing for God. Must I go through them all again?

-Bacteria that mutate frogs to get into stalks. How can they know that Frogs are prey by chance and that a certain creature they want in on is the predator?

-the whole moon thing with it being a certain ratio per size with the Sun as no where else in the known universe

-Evp's

-etc etc. It's 1 am, I'm tired.


I'm not ignorant. I know a great deal of science. It's just never going to kill my faith.

[edit on 9-12-2007 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


again, faith is unfounded. you have not done enough scientific testing to truly say "goddunit"

once you rule out all other explanations, you can.... including personal hallucination.

by the way, there have been instances of joint hallucinations recurring back to common events.

and i did answer, you just refuse to listen to it.

[edit on 12/9/07 by madnessinmysoul]

No, there is no gas leak in my house. Only I and my family hear it, and once in a while my neighbors who knew her. Boy, if I get her EVP, I'm putting it up. Just don't have any time to go home.

Also, I'm not exactly sure how all these drive by answers prove anything except you refuse to be unbiased. If anything proves your point, you take it. if it doesn't, you through it away. At least I proudly show the faults of myself. You just refuse to accept something if it doesn't go with your life views. ring a bell? It should. You basically sound like the Pope in the middle ages.

Again, there is no need to prove faith, it is a personal thing one must experience in life to accept. I accept you for not accepting God exists. I'm just trying to find out why exactly you feel such hatred towards religious people. Just peaceful observations of your mentality based on your posts.

[edit on 9-12-2007 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


hmm, you just pointed out why faith means absolutely nothing

and i am unbiased, you're the one that's asserting that pure personal bias (also known as faith) is reason enough to believe and yet you call me biased.

You said all religious people are dumb. So, you know, that's your bias. I just sit here and observe comments, learning things as I go along. Once in a while I'll post my piece. For this, for example, I am simply showing how most religious people feel about their faith. Something in their lives made them believe it, and nothing scientific can destroy that.

For you, well, it's like watching a kid outside a club house yell at how cool he is not being in it. No one in the club house cares, but you just go on and on and on. Sorry to look down on you, but really, as far as I've seen, you've only managed to make yourself look dumb to everyone else by trolling around arguing over every little thing that religious people care about.

I mean, you still haven't shown me sources for your claims on the Indian church, you still haven't explained to me why a bunch of guys would go around preaching something if it didn't happen (remember, they only got pain and poorness for doing it, yet still did). You still haven't explained to me how exactly I'm wrong on Mithras and Zoroastrian being an early form of Christianity that failed due to human means. (we have free will, God made us to make our own decisions. We don't know ho many times he's played this cat and mouse game with us called religion). You still haven't explained to me how millions of people see ghosts, EVPs, record these things, and you can simply through them out the window as personal events. Even though, you know, personal events is how Gravity was discovered and the same for so many other things.

Soooo, yea, you haven't answered much, you haven't proved much except your a troll, and you haven't really shown much except you can through people's thoughts out the window.

I know, I'm not much different, but Faith is a personal thing. How exactly you can think that millions of unrelated people around the world seeing the same thing is just all imagination, well, it bewilders me. It goes straight up there with the government denying UFOs even though there are billions of photos and videos of them.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by Gorman91]

If Jesus were alive today he'd be hanging out with
The Dalai Lama
The people who cook at the local homeless shelter
Nelson Mandela and Bishop Tutu
he'd go on Oprah if she donated a few million to the poor
your local pot healers
nice extraterrestrials
the girl who thru herself in front of her mom when
her boyfriend shot at her
my cat, Gonzo and my gecko, Blade.

to Gorman, and also to that guy with madness:

what the hell are you arguing about?

it is impossible to no God from inside out. you dont even completely understand the person next to you.

the true science of things is to realize that you know absolutely nothing.

you can use (for ex.) electricity but you dont know what it really is. i never saw an electron,.. did you? exactly thats the way whit the one God. you dont know him but if you ask for something in good faith you will have it (dont ask material things, only possibilities, for you have to choose in order to work (free will)).

as for evolution: who the hell will create something that is unbased on the "other end of the timeline". the bible says that god is eternal ie. timeless. as are we(for Him), for we where created on his template, but bound to the road of time,... there is a whole mountain range with vast pastures that this road goes true. the understanding of electricity would be only the "sidewalk" of that "road", wait to see what happens if we'll be able to pass beyond.

and you 2 just keep arguing about something that either of us understands truly. we ate the fruits of knowledge and never developed the wisdom to live up to it.
and when someone speaks about love, hope, faith, understanding and peace it is always discredited to some level. these things are not funny, it is the supercharger of our lives. i love both of you, but i do not expect to love me ('do not expect'-wery important) you just have to make up your own mind.

my way or the highway,... rephrase: "highway" it is, alright, but take the fast lane.

Originally posted by Gorman91
You said all religious people are dumb. So, you know, that's your bias.

you started this response with a lie...
i never said all religious people are dumb. in fact, 2 of my 4 closest friends are very devout christians, as is my girlfriend.

so that's a bold faced lie.

For you, well, it's like watching a kid outside a club house yell at how cool he is not being in it. No one in the club house cares, but you just go on and on and on. Sorry to look down on you, but really, as far as I've seen, you've only managed to make yourself look dumb to everyone else by trolling around arguing over every little thing that religious people care about.

ad hom...
honestly, is that all you have, petty personal attacks?

I mean, you still haven't shown me sources for your claims on the Indian church,

did you specifically ask for them?
here's a link

there's a source, BBC correspondent.

you still haven't explained to me why a bunch of guys would go around preaching something if it didn't happen (remember, they only got pain and poorness for doing it, yet still did).

if i have to explain that then you have to explain to me why people spread around the pagan religions during the inquisition.
why did they preach about the miracles of the pagan gods if they weren't real?
it's because religion is inherently irrational, it doesn't need to be real for it to be preached. those that went around suffering for it were removed from the actual events, they weren't directly there and had no way of verifying them. they were relying on that "faith" thing.

You still haven't explained to me how exactly I'm wrong on Mithras and Zoroastrian being an early form of Christianity that failed due to human means. (we have free will, God made us to make our own decisions. We don't know ho many times he's played this cat and mouse game with us called religion).

are you familiar with the theological differences?
sure, mithras as a character is similar to jesus, but the rest of the religion has some radical differences. especially the bi-theism.

You still haven't explained to me how millions of people see ghosts, EVPs, record these things, and you can simply through them out the window as personal events. Even though, you know, personal events is how Gravity was discovered and the same for so many other things.

gravity wasn't discovered as a personal experience, it was actually a mathematical proof.

and again, personal experience is flawed.
in the god delusion, dawkins recounts an experience he had when he was younger. he thought he had seen a ghost in his room. he looked at it and it looked just like a human figure. he got closer to it in the dark until he realized it was just curtains and shadow.
the reality simulation software in our brain tends towards familiar shapes in what we see. it's the same reason we forms in clouds.

Soooo, yea, you haven't answered much, you haven't proved much except your a troll, and you haven't really shown much except you can through people's thoughts out the window.

please, please learn grammar... i hate to be the grammar nazi here.

anyway, ad hom

and i've given you the answers here.

I know, I'm not much different, but Faith is a personal thing. How exactly you can think that millions of unrelated people around the world seeing the same thing is just all imagination, well, it bewilders me. It goes straight up there with the government denying UFOs even though there are billions of photos and videos of them.

answer: they don't see the same thing because they're seeing the same thing, it's because their minds are predisposed to see unrelated things as certain things

here's a challenge for you:
read a copy of the god delusion

can you?
i mean, i've read various religious texts, it's only fair that you read a piece of atheist literature.

1 am in the morning, I'll respond when it's light out

As for that Book, why should I read it? Is it somehow suppose to challenge me? What's happened in my life cannot be undone and therefore, no book can change me.

Personal events > Science.

Just as "UFO abducties" will never chnage their beliefs (Unless their lying) I too cannot change what I've seen even if a book tells me I'm wrong. That's about as logical as seeing a kidnapping, but the kidnapper saying you didn't see anything. Him saying that won't change what you've just seen.

[edit on 11-12-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
1 am in the morning, I'll respond when it's light out

come on, it's the internet, where you're supposed to post at night, hungover, or drunk.

As for that Book, why should I read it? Is it somehow suppose to challenge me? What's happened in my life cannot be undone and therefore, no book can change me.

balance?
i mean, if it's not going to change anything, there's nothing to fear in reading it.

Personal events > Science.

oops, incorrect there.
science > personal events

personal events state that the sun revolves around the earth
science states that the earth goes round the sun and rotates as it does so.

Just as "UFO abducties" will never chnage their beliefs (Unless their lying) I too cannot change what I've seen even if a book tells me I'm wrong. That's about as logical as seeing a kidnapping, but the kidnapper saying you didn't see anything. Him saying that won't change what you've just seen.

except none of the events you described are similar to something like a kidnapping and could all be products of flawed human senses misfiring.

and some "abducties" do have a problem... a serious sleep problem which i suffer from. it's called sleep paralysis... i don't see aliens when i have it (well, there was that one time where it was doctors and clowns) but it's like a waking nightmare. thankfully i've overcome my medical problem, but it goes to show you how there's a problem with human perception

No matter what science may say or do, they can never prove to me that this universe and every thing in it was not created by God.

Originally posted by JadePhoenix
No matter what science may say or do, they can never prove to me that this universe and every thing in it was not created by God.

and that's why you fail
you refuse to accept reality in favor of your tiny worldview in which this insignificant speck of a planet is the pride and joy of an all-powerful being.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you refuse to accept reality in favor of your tiny worldview in which this insignificant speck of a planet is the pride and joy of an all-powerful being.

Will you admit you assume it is not?

Christ madness, your like a bug that wont go away when no one wants you.

Indian church is a heresy. I thank you for showing this proof. I knew it myself, just wanted to see if you were lying or not.

And once again, you just bull#ted straight through on personal experiences. It's nice to see Dawson got out to see what that ghost was, but I did too. And there was nothing there making the voice of my dead grandmother. I was home alone the first time I heard it. A week after I laughed at my realities for saying they heard it. So yea, unless there is a gas leak, I heard a dead person and no one was there. Also, you gave no reason for why EVPs are wrong or why the millions of witnesses to things are wrong. You know, if a million people in a city said they saw the flying spaghetti monster, I'd believe them. Much so, I believe the millions of witnesses to ghostly and Godly things.

I have seen plenty of crap. I know I wasn't hallucinating when something grabbing my pillow out from me as I slept because there was no one there. Unlike frightened children who run away from Ghosts, I am the adventures sort and go out to see what it is making certain things happen. Nothing was there all those times I've had something happen. Granted, they are outnumbered by the things that I have found to be nothing more then a silhouettes in the darkness, so far, nothing can explain those rare but valuable events I've said before.


So call me superstitious, but person events are STILL > Science.

O, and Newton found out about gravity through personal experiences. That's how alot of the visible sciences cam about: Personal experiences.


Madness, 90%, maybe 85%, of the world bows to some sort of God, heaven, flying spaghetti monster(Probably higher because China lies about everything). I think alot of the smaller religions are bul, but most larger ones are all inter-connected. It all goes back to somewhere. I suggest, if you ever get the money to do so, you visit the middle east and Africa. You will find bums on the street wiser then Einstein there. Alot of the forgotten old world in there is still flowing about. Who knows, maybe some root all the way back to Atlantis and God knows what else. But the point is, completely broken off tribes never touched by modern society still follow one God. Or at least a bunch of demi-gods under One God. This common pattern must show something. I know you'll probably call it a pattern of ignorance, but I call it a pattern of ancient humanity who is still showing what the deep original religions of the world looked like before modern society corrupted them.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Christ madness, your like a bug that wont go away when no one wants you.

and you're like someone that can't get past name calling and butchering grammar.

Indian church is a heresy. I thank you for showing this proof. I knew it myself, just wanted to see if you were lying or not.

it's a cop out to simply say it's heresy. by what standard is it heresy?

And once again, you just bull#ted straight through on personal experiences. It's nice to see Dawson got out to see what that ghost was, but I did too.

it's nice to see that you're so inattentive that you don't pay attention to who i'm talking about
D A W K I N S.

And there was nothing there making the voice of my dead grandmother. I was home alone the first time I heard it. A week after I laughed at my realities for saying they heard it. So yea, unless there is a gas leak, I heard a dead person and no one was there.

false dichotomy.
you could also simply be hallucinating and sharing a similar hallucination centered around the same event, much in the same way that nam vets will have similar flashback hallucinations if they experienced the same event.

Also, you gave no reason for why EVPs are wrong or why the millions of witnesses to things are wrong. You know, if a million people in a city said they saw the flying spaghetti monster, I'd believe them. Much so, I believe the millions of witnesses to ghostly and Godly things.

i don't believe witnesses, i believe EVIDENCE.

do you believe the millions of people who had reported seeing quetzocoatal in ancient mayan times?

I have seen plenty of crap. I know I wasn't hallucinating when something grabbing my pillow out from me as I slept because there was no one there.

contradictory statement... you can't know that you aren't hallucinating. you could, in fact, be hallucinating right now and i could simply be a figment of your imagination or you could merely be a figment of mine... but such thought is needless philosophical BS

Unlike frightened children who run away from Ghosts, I am the adventures sort and go out to see what it is making certain things happen. Nothing was there all those times I've had something happen. Granted, they are outnumbered by the things that I have found to be nothing more then a silhouettes in the darkness, so far, nothing can explain those rare but valuable events I've said before.

no, something CAN explain it, you just haven't found the answer and default to superstition (showing your bias)

So call me superstitious, but person events are STILL > Science.

well, i already did

prove to me that it does.

O, and Newton found out about gravity through personal experiences. That's how alot of the visible sciences cam about: Personal experiences.

no, he didn't. it was a mathematical proof. he said "why do things fall?" then he proved it.
calculus he did on a dare.

before i tackle the next segment, i must request better paragraphing in the future.

Madness, 90%, maybe 85%, of the world bows to some sort of God, heaven, flying spaghetti monster

argument ad populum, it proves nothing.

and you have your numbers wrong.

(Probably higher because China lies about everything).

...china admits the portion of their population that is religious. hell, many religious statistics list "chinese traditional religion"

by the way, where are you getting your numbers from?

I think alot of the smaller religions are bul,

and why is that?

but most larger ones are all inter-connected.

really? the third largest one is quite independent (hinduism)

and yes many are connected through plagiarism
judaism plagiarized atenism and the henatheistic sumerian influenced religion they were initially were part of
buddhism plagiarized parts of hinduism
christianity plagiarized the mystery cults surrounding it and judaism
islam plagiarized christianity and judaism...

It all goes back to somewhere.

yes, our evolutionary psychology, this is why i recommend reading the god delusion.

I suggest, if you ever get the money to do so, you visit the middle east and Africa. You will find bums on the street wiser then Einstein there.

been there, done that. not really that much wiser than einstein... especially the ones chanting homophobic messages.

Alot of the forgotten old world in there is still flowing about.

...what is it with humanity's constant delusion that there was some mythical wise "old world"?
there's absolutely no evidence to support this idea.

Who knows, maybe some root all the way back to Atlantis and God knows what else.

except there be no atlantis... hell, what plato was talking was one of those things called an "allegory"

But the point is, completely broken off tribes never touched by modern society still follow one God.

and there are a few that follow NONE
how do you explain that?

Or at least a bunch of demi-gods under One God.

or a bunch of gods with no central deity...

This common pattern must show something.

that you know nothing of world religions.

I know you'll probably call it a pattern of ignorance, but I call it a pattern of ancient humanity who is still showing what the deep original religions of the world looked like before modern society corrupted them.

no, i just think you're putting together very limited knowledge and creating a pattern when there is one.

polytheistic religion heavily outweighs monotheistic religion, historically, yet you're making it seem the other way round.

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you refuse to accept reality in favor of your tiny worldview in which this insignificant speck of a planet is the pride and joy of an all-powerful being.

Will you admit you assume it is not?

it's not really much of an assumption to say that even if there was a deity, we'd still be an insignificant speck, it's called humility (isn't that supposed to be virtuous in christianity?)

i'm saying "i see no reason, logic, or evidence to believe otherwise"
i'd readily accept that i'm wrong if one were to show me evidence, you know that, JJ

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you know that, JJ

I know that's what you say, but the evidence states otherwise, as your posting history will dictate -- someone throws something out there, and if there's a possibility it could add weight to the existence of a deity, you shoot it down, while if someone throws something out there that adds weight to the non-existence of a deity, you embrace it. Actions speak louder than words, and though you say you're open to the other side, your behavior states you've made up your mind, regardless of what anyone has to say.

Originally posted by junglejake
I know that's what you say, but the evidence states otherwise, as your posting history will dictate -- someone throws something out there, and if there's a possibility it could add weight to the existence of a deity, you shoot it down, while if someone throws something out there that adds weight to the non-existence of a deity, you embrace it.

but so far NOTHING has added weight to the existence of a deity from anything other than an illogical view of things.

Actions speak louder than words, and though you say you're open to the other side, your behavior states you've made up your mind, regardless of what anyone has to say.

what behavior?
show me somewhere where i've seen concrete evidence that i've denied

the only things that i've thrown out have been "well, i've experienced this"

i've given criteria. anything has to be scientific. right now you're doing something that's beneath you, slandering me. you know my criteria are scientific, yet you say i throw out things... but i do so because they aren't scientific.