British Teacher Faces 40 Lashes for Naming Class Teddy Bear 'Muhammad'

Reply to Grenade

Your question to me is suicide bombing allowed in Islam and those people who strap bombs and blow up innocents, are they right according to Islam?

Nope suicide bombing is not allowed in Islam and killing innocents makes it worse. It’s a big sin to commit suicide and it’s been said that no funeral should take place for that person. Killing innocents is not allowed in Islam Muslim or not Muslim. Both these things are big sins and for killing innocent, the punishment for it according to Sharia law is chop the persons head off in public.

Originally posted by chutso_ha
reply to post by Sparky63

 

You see, Sparky? Compassion and understanding go a long way.

Agreed. Never doubted that. That is why calls for violence, and bloodshed should not be considered. Violence begets violence.
I do feel that if injustices must be addressed. If the world had turned a blind eye and not expressed outrage over the Sudanese Muslims actions, I feel the teacher would be experiencing a different fate, one involving a battered and bruised body at the very least.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by kangjia57
Yeh but if Allah made humans than Allah must have send pious people to the world to guide humans.

Why would Allah need to send people to guide humans? If he created us all, then he is powerful enough to guide us DIRECTLY himself. And he tries, through our hearts and our conscience. Some people pretend to know the will of Allah, and claim to be messengers when they are not my friend. They cloud the path he wants us to take and redirect us for evil agendas, that is how the devil gets ahold of you, through men that fall for his trap of greed and power, and then trick other men into believing they are doing the will of god, when they are actually acting against god by ignoring what he tells us through our hearts. Allah is ALL powerful my friend, he does NOT need men to speak to us.

As a Muslim we belive this life is just a test! Follow Allah in this life and enjoy heaven in the hereafter and if you don’t follow Allahin this life than you will suffe hell in the hereafter.

Right. And to pass the test is NOT to fall for the devils trap here on earth, the test is to listen to Allah from WITHIN. The trap is to do the devils will in the name of god, to listen to the devil who CANNOT speak to our hearts, HE is the one who needs men to carry his message. You have a good heart in there, you believed good people should go to heaven regardless, and that is Allah TRYING HARD to direct you the right way...

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Grenade

Your question to me is suicide bombing allowed in Islam and those people who strap bombs and blow up innocents, are they right according to Islam?

Nope suicide bombing is not allowed in Islam and killing innocents makes it worse. It’s a big sin to commit suicide and it’s been said that no funeral should take place for that person. Killing innocents is not allowed in Islam Muslim or not Muslim. Both these things are big sins and for killing innocent, the punishment for it according to Sharia law is chop the persons head off in public.

So these people have been mis-informed by their imam or have mis-interpreted the Qur'an? Isnt that the point im trying to make? That the Qur'an is open to interpretation and in the hands of man is used for his own devices wether good or evil?

Reply to Grenade

Your question to me is these people have been mis-informed by their imam or have mis-interpreted the Qur'an?

They have not been mis-informed by imam but the organisation they follow and their leaders which claim to do jihad against the West. Some carry out these actions because their houses have been bombed, families killed by bombs. So they get fed up with life and decide to cause damage to the West. So some get mis-informed and some act to take revenge.These organisations mis-inform people and make them carry out extreme actions.

I was with an extreme organisation before called Hizb-ut-Tahrir but than I decided to leave them because they always talked about jihad and showed vids of Muslims getting bombed around the world.
Than I left them and I follow this other non-political organisation and is all to do with spirituality first.
I am more of a spiritual type; the one who I follow says that clean your insides (hearts) first than you will understand what Allah wants. Make your intentions clear that every action I do is for the sake of Allah and not for any worldly gains. And everything stated in the Quran is Allahs word and following Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) way of life is what every Muslim should do.

blueorder – what are you going on about?

Clearly people are moving to Sudan. You are posting on a thread about a British woman moving to Sudan to teach. Clearly people are moving there. The CIA World Fact book even says 2% of the population of Sudan are foreigners. [1] Did you bother to step back a moment and think before you even typed that? Also don’t even suggest they aren’t moving their to make their lives better in some form or other, they are doing what they want with their lives and that involved moving to Sudan. It’s not different then people from Sudan moving to the United Kingdom.

Also, being molested, by a man or women, when you are a man or a woman, when it is un-solicited is sexual assault. Legally it is defined as: “Sexual assault is any physical contact of a sexual nature without voluntary consent.” So my statement is true, many people in the United Kingdom are sexually assaulted and are also criminals because they have sexually assaulted someone. Furthermore, if you desire for me to pick non-Christian Nations with a large percentage of migrants (to the nation) I can easily do that for?

You also lack a lot of historical knowledge of that period in time. By the age of 9 between 400 to 500 AD, people were being married. There are examples of royal marriages, Kings and Queens at that age and so on and so fourth. There are tribes in Africa to this day, where by once a child is old enough to hunt it must hunt, reguardless of it it’s 5 or 10 at that stage. Once people were capable then they were seen as being capable. They couldn’t afford to look after children in the same way we do now.

Also if the 9 year old was deemed unable to marry him, due to being immature the Qur’an would have forbidden it. I thik you’ll find Sura 002.282 speaks about the roll of a Guardian and the fact you can’t enter someone into that sort of contract – wedding/marriage – if they are not mentally competent. Clearly the child back then was seen as being competent enough to marry him.

Regardless of what you think is right, what is wrong, the fact remains you can’t display him harming the girl. Nor do I have to prove innocence; the burden of proof is on the prosecution not the defence. If you can’t display how she was harmed, then there was no point in raising the fact he married a 9 year old girl aside from to play on peoples emotions.

As for your comment about slavery, to the slave owners it was moral. That was an era where people thought they were helping the World by civilizing the savages. I myself don’t agree with slavery, but I also won’t condemn those who took part in it because I have no idea what life was like back then. I desire not to see it again, nor do I hope we do see such things, but what they did it isn’t for me to decide if it’s right or wrong. I’m not moral authority and nor are you. You live your life your way and to be honest there’s one simple rule:
Don’t do physical or economic harm to anyone.

That’s the only true crime, when you break that. Everything else is a socially constructed crime and more often then not should be done in a better way. Age of consent is a perfect example, where by if parents think their child is having sex and isn’t ready (after all they should know on both counts) they can contact the Police. Where by the Police will be able to inform someone (social worker, etcetera) to test the child’s competence. If they fail then the Police get involved – this makes more sense then a magic date, the same should be done for many things, drugs, alcohol, marriage, etcetera. A magic date isn’t the answer and it is a waste of Police time – to the point – that most acts of sex with underage people aren’t even investigated.

[1] www.cia.gov...

Grenade I’ll happily answer them.

1) I myself wouldn’t sleep with a 9-year-old girl; I myself see it was wrong. However that is my own judgement and based on the year 2007. I will not say that over 1500 years ago, someone who got married to a 9 year old and had sexual intercourse with that person is in the wrong. I don’t know that, you don’t know that, you’ve never met the girl.

2) If you so desired, you can get coal, wood, etcetera, that’s locally sourced to provide heating. Electricity I will also grant is something you can’t control, but you can buy televisions from British companies and so on and so fourth. You can limit the amount of trading that you allow the Government to do by also speaking to friends and using the Internet to get the word out. Blaming the Government and big business is just an excuse. If you had such objection to it there is more you can do.

3) What we as a Western democracy do can’t be called better, worse, etcetera. It’s different; we do give more rights to women, but only in the last 100 years. It’s so easy to forget the Women’s Liberation Movement; it’s so easy to forget rape wasn’t even a crime in this country till the 1980’s if you were married. Yes, in the U.K. when I was alive and growing up, if you were married, you couldn’t rape your wife.

You really need to think about things. Beheading someone for being raped is wrong in my view. But is it wrong to behead a person who has raped 1000 women or a person who has murdered 50 people and continues to threaten lives in prison? Also, the Qur’an doesn’t say that a victim of rape should be killed. Thus it’s not Islam but rather people who worship Allah and commit these acts.

To make it simple for you:
Christian writes a book. In this book he claims that rape is fine and that anyone who is raped and has a problem with it should be killed.
This doesn’t mean Christians agree with rape. It means one person does. If 1000 people agree, it doesn’t mean Christians agree.

You also overlook a few things, firstly legislation and change takes time. Many of these nations aren’t a democracy and thus it’s not the people, well all of them, but rather a few radicals.

Also, I don’t research on goggle. I don’t even use it. I actually base it on: The Qur’an, Haralambos and Holborn and various other books. You see, I bother to research things and well using goggle would be better then what you are doing.

You also need to read a few history books. Many Islamic Nations were the leaders in chemistry, astronomy and so on and so fourth for hundreds of years. Furthermore not every Islamic Nation is the same, you are generalising them – for example Dubai allows alcohol to be consumed as well as various other substances. Also the ME can’t be the centre of the World, Oil hasn’t been an important commodity for that long, furthermore you again over-look the history of the region 50+ years ago. Many European Nations controlled it. Many of these countries aren’t even 100 years old yet and you want to give everyone the rights we have? The rights that took over 1000 years for us to get?

Seriously – do a bit of historical research.

By the way, there are many cases of Muslims speaking out against terrorism:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Here’s an example for you:
“Attacks on civilians (Muslims or non Muslims) at any time, peace time or war time, is forbidden in Islam.”
Stated by the President of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada and a very important Islamic figure.

The fact is, all over the internet you can find Muslims speaking out against terrorism, as far as giving the West support in Afghanistan after 9/11. But we ruined any chance of modernizing Islam after Iraq. We need to step back and allow them to do it in their own time.

We didn't do it over night. We can't expect these nations to do the same thing. But now many Muslims feel like the West hates them. All they see is attack after attack. Look at Iran and the recent reports about them not trying to build nuclear weapons. We've had 4 years of false intelligence on Iran. Can you blame those people for being angry with us?

If we had a Nation, constantly calling the British immoral, filthy, that we had no right to the technology they had, you'd feel insulted. I would.

Also, there's no chance of me becoming a Muslim. Although I live in an Islamic area, I have a degree from Buckingham University and soon plan to teach. My partner is a semi-professional dancer in nightclubs and we live a life that in many regards is against the Qur’an and its teaching. However, we both are wise enough to know to give these people respect. Just because we don’t agree with what they do, doesn’t make them wrong. You can’t say they are wrong, without people able to prove direct harm without a justifiable reason.

We all would like a world with peace, but you don’t even get peace in the animal kingdom. People get hurt, people get killed, and there will always be bad people. As the saying goes; “You can’t have a society of saints” but we need to focus on the United Kingdom and the European Union not on Sudan. This woman broke a law, according to their courts. You have to accept that because it is their legal system – it will help them support us – if we put people in prison on awkward charges – incitement to cause terrorism.

If anything, this can be a good thing. It showed that Sudan are not a hostile Nation, they could have killed her. They didn’t. A few thousand people protested, millions didn’t so maybe stop looking at the bad and look at the good. The courts didn’t kill her and gave her a very light sentence, when they could have done much worse. The President was willing to pardon her when he was able to meet British Islamic members of Government.

We should be thankful she’s alive
We should respect their verdict
We should all learn from this and give people respect

Allow Islam to change in its own time. Focus on Europe and fixing the problems we have here. Many of which have nothing to do with terrorism or members of the Islamic faith. When we are perfect, we can tell these people how to run their nation.

reply to post by Odium



I respect your comments and judgement. As i have said i am currently researching and reading an English translation of the Qur'an. If im being honest i have a problem with all religion.

I will reserve any further discussion until i have researched, most of my posts on this thread are born out of anger toward what i see as the injustice in Islamic faith.

This religion is not designed to adapt or change, which is why i have a problem with its teaching in a modern world, where my children will have to be subjected to insanity and mis-interpretations of what is essentially a book of Myth's, unchanged for 1500 years in an ever changing world.

As you said, changes of this magnitude dont happen in a day, it just seems to me that with blind faith in the Qur'an change will never happen.

I would like to finish by apologising to anyone whom i have offended as it is not in my nature to ridicule or assasinate someones character or morals.

Lets just hope that one day we can unite as a world behind one banner and move into a peaceful and prosperous future together.

Reply to Odium

'Also if the 9 year old was deemed unable to marry him, due to being immature the Qur’an would have forbidden it. I think you’ll find Sura 002.282 speaks about the roll of a Guardian and the fact you can’t enter someone into that sort of contract – wedding/marriage – if they are not mentally competent. Clearly the child back then was seen as being competent enough to marry him.
Regardless of what you think is right, what is wrong, the fact remains you can’t display him harming the girl. Nor do I have to prove innocence; the burden of proof is on the prosecution not the defence. If you can’t display how she was harmed, then there was no point in raising the fact he married a 9 year old girl aside from to play on peoples emotions.

Nicely explained matey!

I have now said many times i realise that marraige with a 9 year old girl could have been acceptable in the past. 1500 years of social change now lead me to believe that this practice is no longer valid. A 9 year old girl should never be subjected to a sexual relationship in todays day and age and nothing, absolutely nothing i read will convince me otherwise. This is one relic of Islam that should be modernised.

Tongue in cheek, can you explain how a fully grown man can have sex with a 9 year old without causing at least physical pain, in any period throughout history. Forgive me but i dont think there was a plentiful supply of lube back then unless Mohammad was a 4ft midget?

[edit on 4-12-2007 by Grenade]

reply to post by kangjia57


Mohammed married her when she was 6 years old, he consumated the marriage when she was 9 years old.
Prior to that he just satisfied himself with "thighing" her.
Most considerate of him don't you think?

Any excusing of paedophilia is undefendable.
Could you be sexually attracted to a 9 year old girl? I suspect not and if anyone on ATS was to admit to it I also suspect that you would be one of the first to exclaim " look!, another example of Western, Christian immorality", yet your own prophet was clearly a paedophile himself.

You have clearly shown yourself to be an intelligent person who also has considerable compassion.
Please, do yourself a favour and start questioning the brainwashing you have received.
You owe it to yourself.

The real bottom line in all of this which is being missed by a few it seems is that when subject to an extremist view or interpretation, any religion, any ideology can become a dangerous tool.

Islam, Judiasim, the various flavors of Christianity can and have fallen victems to radical internal groups. These groups by thier very nature garner most of the attention, and if one apple in the bushell is bad the rest are suspect.

Does Bin Laden and his merry bunch and thier radical interpretation of the Koran represent ALL of Islam?

DO Rambo like, ultra orthadox, gun toting, shoot Palestinians first for no reason and ask questions later represent ALL Jews?

Does Fred Phelps and his protestors or better yet the radical anti abortion groups and assasinate clinic workers or lob firebomb, represent all flavors of Christianity?

NO, No, and No.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Nicely explained matey!

I think we're gonna have to ask you to assimilate to the British culture just a little and say mate instead of matey. That or we'll need to get you an eyepatch, peg leg, and a parrot to sit on your shoulder.

reply to post by Freeborn


Pointless my friend, some people will defend this behaviour using any means possible. Because it happened in the past when it was socially acceptable it makes it ok. God must have forgotton to tell Muhammad its not particularly richeous to have sex with a 9 year old. One defence was that the lifespan was shorter and so it was to bear children. Obviously his other 10-13 wives wasnt enough.

Reply to Odium

I am impressed with amount of knowledge you have. You being non-Muslim explained things much better than me being a Muslim. I kinda feel shamefull,just shows that how much more knowledge I need especially being a Muslim in this day and age to explain things better to non-muslims instead of causing outrage.

reply to post by FredT


My argument to that would be that all the other religions you have mentioned are willing to modernise and adapt to an ever changing world. Islam is the only exception to the rule. The laws which stood 1500 years ago when the world was even more barbaric still stand today.

Freeborn, can you find me a text from that era which speaks of pedophilia because I do believe during that period the understanding of it was:
Vaginal intercourse with someone who can't produce child is wrong. If they can produce children it is right.

Due to the fact, we live in a different generation you can't morally judge them. I also understood, the sexual contect of pedophilia didn't exist till the book Richard von Krafft-Ebing published.

Of course, if you can find a historical document which explains what it is and also makes it illegal. Then you could call him that, otherwise you are just placing a law in the present day to an event that happened 1500 years ago.

For example:
Consumpution of opium today is illegal.
It wasn't roughly 100 years ago in the U.K.

You don't attack the children today of those who consumed opium back then.

reply to post by Odium



I have a problem with your example.

Consumption of opium is self destructive.
Sexual intercouse with a 9 year old girl effects another.

Not to mention Muhammad was in his fifties when this happened. God in his infinate wisdom was unable to see past 6th century beliefs and culture.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by Grenade]

Originally posted by Odium
otherwise you are just placing a law in the present day to an event that happened 1500 years ago.

Isn't that kinda what anybody who lives by these ancient holy books is doing but in reverse?

reply to post by Odium


I myself have stated in various threads here on ATS that it is a common mistake to judge the historical events of yesterday by morals and values of today. This is something I truly believe in.

However, I too am a product of my times and I have a particular dislike of paedophiles and their apologists.

Mohammed married Aisha when she was 6 years old.
Muhammed found Alisha sexually attractive before she reached puberty.
Muhammed pleasured himself by "thighing" Aisha until she was 9 years old.
Muhammed used Aisha as a sexual plaything BEFORE she reached puberty.
An offence according to Muhammed.
According Muhammeds very own laws, which he himself dictated during his life time, he committed a serious crime and allowed his sexual urges to control him.

So, by his own standards, not ours, Mohammed was wrong and committed a crime.


[edit on 4-12-2007 by Freeborn]

You do realise that the quotes you are using aren't even in the Qur'an, they are in Sahih al-Bukhari which is a Sunni Hadith. In the version published by Sahih Muslim a different quote is said. In fact this quote is:

2b. "(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."

The term: consumated and addmitted to his house are almost the same words in Arabic. It's a case of a word having several meanings.

Very interesting what you can do with a little bit of research. Now it's up to you to decide which view you hold.