The Douglas Bader Mystery

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
reply to post by SPM.45

 

Then why did you bring it up?

You dragged it here, utterly without context, in a neat piece of character assassination. Waynos pointed out that it lacked context. RN Medic linked back to the entire thread, to give it context for those who wanted to go find it, and explained his words.

So now you want to dismiss it as being irrelevant?

Huh...

Actually, _I_ linked it back to the entire thread to give it context, _not_ RN Medic. RN Medic's contribtution here has to be try to deflect blame for his abusive behaviour that resulted in him being banned from posting to another forum.

reply to post by SPM.45


My mistake, beg pardon, yes, you did.

After it was pointed out that your post had no context on which to be judged.

So, while I read through the last page too quickly and made that particular error, I'm afraid the rest of my post stands.

Why did you bring it up, only to dismiss it after RN Medic explained himself? It still reeks of character assassination to me.

OK, so now that the context has been established and a bit of scene setting has been done in terms of filling in some of the evolution of the story how about we draw a line and stop discussing RNM1945's behaviour elsewhere, (he has no "previous" on this board as far as I know), or anybody else's attitude for that matter, and concentrate on the question of Bader's movements as far as they can be established.

I am confident that if any abusive or unacceptable behaviour should start up over here then the staff will deal with it in their normal efficient manner

It was not my intention or desire to become involved in another round of abuse and counter abuse with old adversaries from another forum and I will not.

Can I just explaim one or two things that are often thrown up at me by those who do not want to believe my story. If they take such a view why don't they just go away and forget the whole thing?

As for the BBC, I would like to make it clear that when they commenced their Peoples War history project, the producer approached me not just on my Bader story, but the whole of my wartime experience and I agreed to let them, as he called it, "Kick Start" their project with five of my stories.

A few months later he and his girl friend came out to Australia and visited my wife and I when we discussed some of my misgivings regarding the number of spurious stories on WWII that were being published on the project and, I might add that a number of concerend and heroic veterans pulled out of the project and many others started a campaign to protest to the BBC that the project was becoming a joke due to fictitious and often ludicrous so called true accounts of WWII.

I became very active in the attempt to cleanse the project of this rubbish and, to demonstrate how easy it was to fool those young folk running the project I wrote two bizarre and totally ridiculous accounts of wartime activities, one from the London Blitz and one about Japan's midget submarines that were manned, as I claimed in the narrative, by dwarfs! Both stories were accepted and applauded and went into the archive. Very soon I confessed and told them I had proved my point but was admonished and told that I had commited an action that could normally have me expelled but that I was sort of now on parole!

I now decided that I wanted all my stories deleted from the archive and DEMANDED that I be expelled as a genuine veteran whilst pranksters were allowed to run riot - it took time but I am PROUD to say that I was "expelled" eventually. The BBC still however try to gain mileage from my stories and you will find BBC references to Royal Navy Medic 1945 if you search for the Douglas Bader Enigma.

Now to clear up another misundstanding, I have never claimed that I kept wartime diaries and never did - I have exceptional long term memory recall but appalling short term recall - How different my story would have been if I had kept diaries and had a digital camera at my disposal!

I am now rather tired of the whole project having had my various guestbooks defiled and eventually hijacked, my e-mail address hijacked and my mail filled with never ending rubbish. I no longer get excited and angry when some of these people with warped minds label me as a "Mother F----r" and the like, but just feel so sorry for them as they are mostly young enough to be still alive when the Bader story is finally revealed - I will be elsewhere and maybe having a pint with Douglas and having a giggle about the whole thing.

Thank you for indulging me and I hope there are enough of you with enough faith in me and my story to go searching until you stumble on the answers and the full account of those eventful times in 1942.

Cheers

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
reply to post by SPM.45

 

My mistake, beg pardon, yes, you did.

After it was pointed out that your post had no context on which to be judged.

So, while I read through the last page too quickly and made that particular error, I'm afraid the rest of my post stands.

Why did you bring it up, only to dismiss it after RN Medic explained himself? It still reeks of character assassination to me.

I hoped I had made this clear earlier, but to recap. I noted in one of my early posts here that I had previously attempted to debate this subject seriously with the author of the "mystery", but had been rebuffed in a very rude and aggressive fashion, which Waynos had not come across and asked for detail on, which I supplied. That's not character assassination but fact.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by SPM.45]

Originally posted by timeless test
OK, so now that the context has been established and a bit of scene setting has been done in terms of filling in some of the evolution of the story how about we draw a line and stop discussing RNM1945's behaviour elsewhere, (he has no "previous" on this board as far as I know), or anybody else's attitude for that matter, and concentrate on the question of Bader's movements as far as they can be established.

I am confident that if any abusive or unacceptable behaviour should start up over here then the staff will deal with it in their normal efficient manner

Quite. I had made clear in a number of my earlier posts that this was my intention.

So. Could Bader have returned to the UK covertly in 1942? No, unequivocally not. Consider the nature of the man that did not know the meaning of the word "compromise". Consider the nature of the war in 1942. Consider the logistics and the possibility of a "covert agent", for whatver reason being housed publicly in a hotel with junior staff given open access. Consider the reasons why Bader might be brought to the UK.

Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942. Fact.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by SPM.45]

reply to post by SPM.45



Very true, there is a brutal dichotomy there between the apparently highly secret nature of Bader's presence in Liverpool and that he was housed very publicly in a hotel rather than at one of any number of discrete locations that must have existed at the time.

Unless the the affair went awry in some manner which meant that what should have been public was necessarily turned into a secret matter.

Originally posted by timeless test
reply to post by SPM.45

 

Very true, there is a brutal dichotomy there between the apparently highly secret nature of Bader's presence in Liverpool and that he was housed very publicly in a hotel rather than at one of any number of discrete locations that must have existed at the time.

Unless the the affair went awry in some manner which meant that what should have been public was necessarily turned into a secret matter.

I think this dichotomy goes to the very heart of the issue and really does render it as impossible. If this were something still so secret that papers are still secret, Bader cannot have been in a public location.

We also have to look at the credibility of the only witness - no character assasination, but when there is no proof the veracity of the witness has to be examined. Ken says he has excellent long term memory, but versions of his story have been shown to be mistaken in detail - the dates of the witnessed shooting down of a bomber during the Liverpool blitz and so on. Ken also says that as new information has come to light he has had to revise his story but this is disingenuous at best as no information has ever come to light, only holes in the story that Ken has then reworked to cover up. As a witness Ken is not credible and as his story is the only indication that Bader was in Liverpool in 1942 that exists means that it has to be treated with considerable caution.

The probability is that Bader did not travel to Liverpool in 1942.

SPM45

You claim categorically that Bader was not and could not have been in Liverpool in 1942 and steadfastly cling to the bible like text book version of the imprisonment of Bader and claim as he was in Colditz in 1942 how could he have visited Liverpool?

They are the same questions that I have been attempting to answer for the last three years despite constant ridicule from people such as you who have blinkered vision and are not able to accept that YOU could be wrong and despite the fact that I know he was in Liverpool for a short time in 1942.

I would ask that you now research and provide comment on the report published in TIME magazine shortly after Baders capture that he was given a party at the local Lutwaffe headquarters hosted by Adolf Galland at which time all got a little tipsy and Bader performed numerous somersaults for the amazed Germans. Then later Bader escaped and had walked a hundred miles towards the sea before he was arrested and I might add, with seriously injured legs.

Fact or fiction? And either way how can you prove this bizarre story true or false and how can you therefore continually claim my story is untrue?

Perhaps you would also care to comment on the so called expert on all things WW II, DILIP SARKAR's published comments on your other Forum that claimed that "Reach For The Sky" by Paul Brickhill was written to make money and is historically useless? Again is this fact or fiction and what is your view on this claim?

Think about it WEBPILOT, strange things happened during WW II and as I was there I think I have a better grasp of what went on than you do - because everything you claim to be fact was not via personal experience at the time but from what other people have written and you have eagerly read.

Could it be that the history books are often wrong and could it be that TIME magzine could be wrong and can you not concede that I could be telling the truth ?- It is really a puzzlement to be sure

Give my regards to Ian!

Dear Ken,

please forget your silly feuds, we have said this thread is to be serious discussion of the possibilities. As we have seen your veracity is seriously doubtful and it seems that you have no real answer to the valid questions that I pose. I disgregard journalistic hubris so Time is really only a red herring. We come back to the same points that undermine your story. *If* such a secret event took place that there are no records or witnesse other than yourself and that papers are still classified, why was Bader in a cheap Liverpool hotel openly with junior staff let in on the story? It does not add up. Could you not be wrong - how do you know this wasn't a joke played on your by your seniors? Answer - you don't.

Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942. Fact.

PS. I'm not the Webpilot that you seem so obsessed with, nor Ian whoever that might be so make of that what you will.



[edit on 15-11-2007 by SPM.45]

Dear Ken,

please forget your silly feuds, we have said this thread is to be serious discussion of the possibilities. As we have seen your veracity is seriously doubtful and it seems that you have no real answer to the valid questions that I pose. I disgregard journalistic hubris so Time is really only a red herring. We come back to the same points that undermine your story. *If* such a secret event took place that there are no records or witnesse other than yourself and that papers are still classified, why was Bader in a cheap Liverpool hotel openly with junior staff let in on the story? It does not add up. Could you not be wrong - how do you know this wasn't a joke played on your by your seniors? Answer - you don't.

Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942. Fact.

PS. I'm not the Webpilot that you seem so obsessed with, nor Ian whoever that might be so make of that what you will.

Oh! dear,

You are certainly who I claim you are - FACT! You are also a very pathetic figure who was never involved in any of the action that happened in WW II. You are sadly a Wannabe and always will be and I feel so sorry for you as you now, when challenged to confirm or deny other events of the war disdainfully dismiss TIME magazine and it's stories then you fail to jump up to defend Paul Brickhill from the defamation heaped upon him by some Johnny come lately "historian" who claims to know it all - do you believe in anything other than that which slots into your narrowminded concept of other people with more to talk about than you will ever have?

You demand sensible dialogue and accuse me of avoiding such - My dear boy how can a mature man with a lifetime of wondrous experiences to relate (did you read ALL of my Memoir?) suffer the proverbial fools gladly?

End of discussion sensible or otherwise and you can scream and proclaim that he was not there in 1942 as loud as you like and I tell you he was and will be happy to undergo any and all lie detection procedures to prove my veracity - what can you do to prove without a shadow of doubt that I am lying?

Bandits at Two O'Clock!

Oh goody.

It appears we at ATS are to be treated to a dogfight.

Voici the ancient aces struggling into their leather helmets and sheepskin jackets. Ecoutez the doughty old Merlins revving up, sputtering slightly. A final swig from the silver flask that does not contain coffee and chocks away!

The pills are in the left thigh pocket of your flying suit, dear. Tie a knot in your handkerchief, then you won't forget.

Per ardua ad contra, eh? I can't wait.

Oh dear, we seem to have a brutal dichotomy here...

Originally posted by SPM.45
Could you not be wrong - how do you know this wasn't a joke played on your by your seniors?

Eminently sensible question.

Answer - you don't.

Oh dear. Anyway, that is a possible answer, certainly.

Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942. Fact.

Dear, oh, dear. That is not a sensible answer.

It is fine for RN Medic, who was there, to be wrong, but you, who were not there, must be correct? I think, perhaps, you need to look in your shaving mirror once again.

we have said this thread is to be serious discussion of the possibilities.

I'm not seeing too much of it in your posts. Oh, wait, there it was

The probability is that Bader did not travel to Liverpool in 1942.

So, probability, huh? What happened to

Bader was not in Liverpool in 1942. Fact.

?

I'm sorry if you don't like my tone, but yours got my nose out of joint from the beginning. After all, you gave us

please forget your silly feuds

and

I had previously attempted to debate this subject seriously with the author

I'm having a hard time believing the heights of your lofty ideals.

Methinks he doth protest too much

We also have to look at the credibility of the only witness - no character assasination, but...this is disingenuous at best...only holes in the story that Ken has then reworked to cover up. As a witness Ken is not credible and...means that it has to be treated with considerable caution.

You really are trying hard to appear dispassionate here, but it just isn't convincing. Too often you allow your real feelings to sneak out.

Now, I'm having a hard time believing Ken's story, as my post about Pat Reid shows, but I don't need to resort to attacks on an old man. And if you go looking across this site you'll see that I have no inhibitions in that area if I feel it's necessary.

I wonder if you are enjoying winding Ken up, playing at the dispassionate commentator, but knowing, thanks to prior experience, exactly where Ken's buttons are and how to push them, knowing what kind of response you will get from him...

It still reeks of character assassination to me.

And this...

I hoped I had made this clear earlier, but to recap. I noted in one of my early posts here that I had previously attempted to debate this subject seriously with the author of the "mystery", but had been rebuffed in a very rude and aggressive fashion, which Waynos had not come across and asked for detail on, which I supplied. That's not character assassination but fact.

Conveniently avoids the fact that you did not originally supply the link. Fact? Yes, but in the rather more famous words of another

...economical with the truth.

You also conveniently avoided my question of why it was useful in backing you, but irrelevant when used by Ken.

Sorry Howlrunner, I'm not rising to that bait. I've made my points on dispassionate terms and the facts are there to be taken at face value.

reply to post by RNM1945


Sorry Ken, you're as mistaken as to my identity and experience as you are on Baders. So there we have it, you can add nothing than more abuse.

Is that glycol on your goggles, dear, or are you just pleased to see me?

Originally posted by SPM.45
Sorry Ken, you're as mistaken as to my identity and experience as you are on Baders. So there we have it, you can add nothing than more abuse.

>excitedly leaping up and down<

Yes! Yes! Yesss! The abuse! The abuse! Let's have the abuse!

Great-Aunt Letitia always said the pilots looked so handsome when they turned up at the house late at night after the bars closed. Of course the girls were always fighting over them. In the end she settled for an Army man. But she did have some knickers made of parachute silk, don't know how she got her hands on them... don't know who else did either.

Of course old Dougie didn't attend. He preferred the company of his bulldog. Nipper, I think the tyke was called. A real one-man dog.

[edit on 16-11-2007 by Astyanax]

SPM45, it seems that like the ill-fated Titanic you are running out of steam don't you think?

You claim that you are not WEBPILOT active member of many Fora as you would call them also a Member of The Royal Air Force Historical Society and I believe, The Colditz Society.

Your father was in the RAF and was based at Hornchurch for a while as a Leading Aircraftman or similar and you spent some time in The Air Cadets or whatever you call it. One of your detractors on the Aviation Forum leaked information that your daytime job was a an Industrial Grade Viagra demonstrator at Harrods.

Now having said all that, you are welcome to vigorously deny all of the foregoing information I have about you but it will be to no avail unless you now tell all here what name you used on the Aviaition Forum so we can be sure of no further misunderstandings. If you fail to provide this information your veracity will be shot down in flames like dear Douglas Bader dont you think?

Now as far as I am concerned I am having far too much fun now in my declining years and am looking forward to my 84th birthday in a few days time and not being able to find enough time to do all the things that I want to, and that does not include jousting with a sad case such as you, so unlike Arnold S in California, I will not as far as you are concerend, be back. Oh! and please would you stop e-mailing me all this Viagra propaganda it is very annoying.

FIN

Dear ken,

you are on yet another wild goose chase and all your guesses are very wide of the mark.

As I have repeatedly said if you cannot discuss this rationally without recourse to feuds, abuse and so on, then it demeans you and your story far more than you seem to realise.

[edit on 16-11-2007 by SPM.45]

Hi WEBPILOT,

I said I was coming back but this IS my last word.. throw off your cloak of cowardly anonimity, tell us who you REALLY are as I have done, everyone knows who I am and where I live and has had three years to discuss my true story - I can do no more, the ball is really in your court, respond or steal away silently into the night.



[edit on 16-11-2007 by RNM1945]

reply to post by RNM1945

One of your detractors on the Aviation Forum leaked information that your daytime job was a an Industrial Grade Viagra demonstrator at Harrods.

Not bad, Ken, though still somewhat redolent of the old bike sheds, don't you think?

SPM45, your performance so far has been rather disappointing. You need to raise your game or Ken will win Douglas Bader's autographed tin leg and Colditz-issue chamber pot.

I hope you both understand that Above Top Secret demands a higher standard of abuse than those tedious old aeroplane forums full of overgrown schoolboys. Thank you.


[edit on 19-11-2007 by Astyanax]