Jerry Falwell found unconscious,:Update Falwell Passed Away

I don't agree with you often Grady but very well said, very well said indeed.

Originally posted by intrepid
All I'm asking for is decorum, is THAT too much to ask? That one isn't rhetorical.

Not in the least.

I haven't mention the site once intrepid. Not once. I have related my feelings with regards to those who feel this mans passing is a cause for celebration. Not once have I mentioned the site. You accuse me of selective posting, but it seems you have selective eyesight, or perhaps selective comprehension?

Would you mind telling me where the spirit of decorum fits in to the act of a mod entering into a pissing contest with one of the membership? It seems you're attempting to have an argument with me, where one doesn't exist. Show me where I said, "hey everybody, let's all laugh at this dead man on ATS".

I merely stated, that ones own thoughts and feelings shouldn't be dictated to by the crowd.

I stand by that, now, and until the day I die, upon which, if you so wish, you can celebrate 'til your hearts content.

[edit on 15/5/07 by Implosion]

Right off the bat, I'm not asking anyone to mourn for the man... we'll leave that to family and those who he owed money to.

It seems to me that the positions being taken here are coming 'closer together' and that's what should be happening.

I understand the reaction of those posters who happily applauded the death of this man and I also understand those who feel there should be restraint. I'm just on the side of silent contemplation when confronted with a death.

The time to rail against what Jerry Falwell stood for is past now. It's history.

I know I made comments about him which were unflattering (to say the least), but that also stems from a deep dislike of religion itself. He was, to me, the epitome of what is really wrong with the 'cult of personality' and the strangling confines of dogma. Falwell, in a way, represented everything I found disagreeable in structured religion. Others yet remain to carry that torch, so I'll be changing my focus.

But Falwell, is dead and his family is grieving right along with (I'm guessing) millions of his flock.

I could point to the things he'd said during his life, but that seems to be wrong at this time in my opinion. I disliked him immensely and was vocal about it while his influence was still alive, but now, I'm only reminded of that which waits for us all.

Death is a great leveller. When I hear of a death, it only makes me aware of what Timothy Leary called "The last trip". I hope to have the same blithe attitude when I go.

Only our words and deeds are left after we die and they will speak for themselves, won't they?

Originally posted by Implosion

Originally posted by Blaine91555
The Nazi's celebrated the deaths of those they disagreed with. The KKK celebrates after lynching or burning those they don't agree with. The Terrorists celebrate be-headings and bombings of those they have ideological differences with. Add yourselves to this list. You are the same people with a different cause. You are whats going wrong with this World. No need to look any further. I hope I'm not around when one of you goes over the edge.

Yes, and of course, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Milosevic, Hussain, all mourned the world over. Anyone can cherry pick examples to fit with their agenda. Human nature is what it is. I applaud those honest enough to allow their true feelings be shown, instead of being dictated to by the P.C. herd.

That is not a fair analogy. All of the men you listed did more than preach intolerance, they acted on their words and murdered hundreds of thousands, and in two of your group, millions of innocent people in cold blood. Falwell was truly ignorant of the truth and died in that ignorance; I pray that the same will not be said of you when your time to die comes.

It seems thoughtcrime truly has become a reality.

Your thoughts are not being policed here; your ignorance is. You cry that Falwell deserves your condemnation because he preached intolerance and hate; how is that, in any way, different from what you are doing? The man is dead. God will be his judge, and you can be sure it will be a righteous judgement; as will be the judgement on every one of us, when the time comes.

Originally posted by Stormrider
Your thoughts are not being policed here; your ignorance is.

Ignorance huh?

The act of ignoring?

Seems that's precisely what you're doing to me. Show me, just one quote will do, where I have said one negative thing about this man.

That's right, you can't do it. Not one negative statement regarding him have I posted.

Who's being ignorant?

[edit on 15/5/07 by Implosion]

Originally posted by Implosion

Originally posted by Stormrider
Your thoughts are not being policed here; your ignorance is.

Ignorance huh?

The act of ignoring?

Seems that's precisely what you're doing to me. Show me, just one quote will do, where I have said one negative thing about this man.

Originally posted by Implosion Yes, and of course, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Milosevic, Hussain...

You lumped his name in amid five of history's worst mass murderers and you don't consider that a negative remark? Your negativity was implied in the
way you put your statement.

That's right, you can't do it. Not one negative statement regarding him have I posted.

I think I just did.

Who's being ignorant?

Well, you re-read your comments above and then I'll let you decide.

Originally posted by Stormrider
You lumped his name in amid five of history's worst mass murderers and you don't consider that a negative remark? Your negativity was implied in the way you put your statement.

I didn't lump his name in with them at all. These are examples of people who have died, and their deaths have been celebrated by many people.

Of course, I don't need to even point that out. That's the beauty with a forum such as this. The words persist, and all can see. Your perception appears to me to be warped. Either that, or you're desperately trying to justify the words of your last post.

I've already said, his passing meant nothing to me, either way. I don't know enough about the guy, but if you'd actually read my posts, you'd have seen that.

You, like intrepid, are trying to have an argument where one doesn't exist.

My point is one concerning the personal right to choose. If you can't be bothered to at least try to read, and understand what someone is saying, before you post in reply, don't expect your words to mean a damn thing to anyone.

[edit on 15/5/07 by Implosion]

Can't say I've paid much attention this thread.

I never knew who this man was and therefore never cared.

After seeing his picture I realized I had seen him before. He was the man I came across channel surfing whom I brushed off as being just another televangelist.

My single televised encounter with him consisted of these words: "And I know there is no such thing as Global Warming as God would not allow it to happen."

Out of respect for the dead I will not share my opinion with the exception of this comment:

May whatever god he believed in have mercy on his soul.

He was a man with true hatred in his heart and who mislead the hearts of hundreds of thousands.
May God please forgive him.
And pray we never forget him.

I did not follow Mr. Fallwell through his life or his teachings. He was a Christian by his own claims and in many ways seemed to carry himself as such. He was also very outspoken in his beliefs. Apparently many others shared his beliefs; because he had quite a following. Does this make him right? Not necessarily. However, the fact that he had a diametric point of view from many of you here on this sight does not make him a hate monger or 'intolerant' either. If anyone is intolerant, it is those who would wish death on someone because they do not see eye to eye with them. Intolerant seems to relate to the view taken of Christians on this sight and among the general public. I doubt if the man actually hated anyone if he was truly a Christian. But I do believe he hated the sins of our nation and the path we as a country have been lead down. God doesn't hate the sinners, just the sin. That's not a message of hate, that's a message of repentance. I'm just sharing this with you so that some of you may be able to look at this man and his beliefs with a bit more enlightenment. You are fighting over your rights to have and express opinions while trashing this man for spending his life expressing his opinions based on his beliefs. It really doesn't make any sense.

My condolences to Mr. Fallwell's family and friends. Assuming he was a Christian, he is in a much better place now.

Originally posted by Stormrider

Originally posted by Implosion Yes, and of course, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Milosevic, Hussain...

You lumped his name in amid five of history's worst mass murderers and you don't consider that a negative remark? Your negativity was implied in the
way you put your statement.

Maybe I'm going to take flak for this. I certainly didn't like Falwell. He was more divisive than anything, and I don't share his vengeful vision of Christianity.

Of course, that's probably not the part I'll take flak for. I mourn Mr. Falwell; I take no pleasure in his death. With respect to the comment above, I would mourn the deaths of those people also. If Osama bin Laden were killed tomorrow, I'd mourn him too. For much the same reason as I do Falwell: because a fellow human lived his life knowing only hatred.

I think that's what people are missing. If I mourn someone--I can't speak for anyone else--then I am feeling distressed about the loss of life in the abstract, because everyone has the possibility of growth and evolution no matter their age or beliefs.

I think this is one of the prime reasons that I don't support the death penalty. If we insist on killing the guilty, don't they lose the opportunity for growth? They are stripped of reason, the very thing that makes us human. They lose the chance--no matter how slim--to wake up one day and say "Holy crap, did I screw up." That's the triumph of the human spirit, the one thing that we have no right to deprive someone of, and the obligation to mourn upon its loss.

If Reagan had died in the 1950's, he would have been bashed by Republicans because he was a labor leader. He later became a Republican. Likewise, if Robert Byrd had died in 1950, he would have been remembered as a member of the Klan. But they had the chance to live, and over the years they changed and evolved. There's nothing good or bad about what they became, it's merely the fact that they had the chance is what's important.

So I am not going to celebrate the death of someone who, I believe, was filled with anger. Likewise, I won't even celebrate the deaths of the greatest sinners, killers, and villains in history. They died without seeing the error of their ways, and that is the greatest of human tragedies.

We should mourn this person--or any person--especially when we disagree with them. Because the capacity to adhere to a respect for life in all its forms is what sets us apart from the animals. Not doing so makes us filled with the same hatred of the person we curse, and that achieves nothing. It's not possible to say "I'm glad he's dead" and "I don't hate anyone." It's a fundamental contradiction. It's the same reason that we shouldn't torture criminals: because it betrays our respect for our fellow man and makes us no better than them.

Doesn't the Golden Rule have application here? Would you want someone to say "I'm glad he's dead, I hope he enjoys it when Satan straps a gimp mask on his face"? I hope not. I certainly don't.

[edit on 5/15/2007 by Togetic]

I won't mask my feelings....I just don't care that he died. I also didn't care when Anna Nicole Smith died. It's not often that I am upset about a celebrity's death, and Falwell was just that, a celebrity… that wasn't afraid to mouth about his resentment for others. Ironically, just as others here aren't afraid to voice their dislike for him, even upon his ultimate death.

Lonewolf
But I do believe he hated the sins of our nation and the path we as a country have been lead down. God doesn't hate the sinners, just the sin.

This is very true. I think sometimes people gets it confused. Just because someone may not like the actual sin does not mean they don't like the person.

One thing I've never come to grips with is why God allows new sinners to
enter the world every second of every day knowing that most of them
will spend eternity in hell after they physically die. He hates the sin but
punishes the sinners. If this is indeed the case, as most church's teach,
something's wrong with this picture..isn't it?

I don't know if anybody is interested in this or not but I just played a gig at a pretty low key bisto/beer joint and everyone in the place was celebrating Rev. Falwells death. They seemed to feel that maybe this would hereld in a new freedom without the constipated moral attitudes that Rev. Falwell seemed to embody.

Some chicks were actually dancing nude on the bar in celebration.

It was great!!

Ok, found some more information. Seems Falwell got into politics because he was against abortion. Then one thing led to another. So he spoke out against homosexuality, pornography as well. Looks to me like he sued Hustler because they defamed his name. His father and grandfather were both atheists. So they did not teach him religion. Falwell became a christian at the age of 19.

Driven into politics by the 1973 Supreme Court ruling that established the right to an abortion, Falwell founded the Moral Majority in 1979. The rise of Christian conservatism — and the Moral Majority's full-throated condemnation of homosexuality, abortion and pornography — made Falwell perhaps the most recognizable figure on the evangelical right, and one of the most controversial ones, too.
In 1984, Falwell sued Hustler for $45 million, charging that he was libeled by a liquor-ad parody that quoted him as saying he lost his virginity to his mother in an outhouse.
A federal jury found the fake ad did not libel him but awarded him $200,000 for emotional distress. The verdict was overturned in a landmark 1988.
Falwell's father and his grandfather were militant atheists, he wrote in his autobiography. He said his father made a fortune off his businesses — including bootlegging during Prohibition.

He ran with a gang of juvenile delinquents before becoming a born-again Christian at 19. He turned down an offer to play professional baseball and transferred from Lynchburg College to Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Mo.


"My heart was burning to serve Christ," he once said in an interview. "I knew nothing would ever be the same again."


Falwell's survivors include his wife, Macel, his two sons and a daughter, Jeannie Falwell Savas. The funeral is set for 2 p.m. Tuesday at Thomas Road Baptist Church.

news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=Agj4KjgXhqKm0PZVdGQFvvQE1vAI

My two cents...

Good ridance!

By me, apex, yesterday
Surprisingly, the Westboro baptist church has not yet leapt on an opportunity for picketing. As anyone who isn't one of their people is a target, I'm amazed.

Well, it seems now that they are (warning standard WBC hate speech here if you click on it):
www.godhatesfags.com...

I'm not agreeing with either Falwell or WBC here, but I would sincerely like to go and tear their picketing signs up. It's bad enough that people are showing certain feelings here, but to do it outside the very church the funeral is in? Thats just totally wrong.

[edit on 16-5-2007 by apex]

I have been castigated for saying that it should be up to the individual to make up their own mind as to whether they should celebrate the passing of another, while, at the same time, I have spoken no ill of the man in question.

An individual imposing their beliefs on other, be it religious beliefs, or beliefs regarding such things as points of view, perspectives, decorum, is an individual indulging in an act of totalitarianism: One personal viewpoint, occupying a position of authority, upheld by force.

We all have our perspectives. Whereas I may or may not agree on those expressed, I believe in the right of the people to express them.

If this man was a fundamentalist Muslim, instead of a fundamentalist Christian, how different would some of the views expressed here be?

He was an icon of the American "Christian right" [these people are no more Christian than I am a sea bass BTW].

The "Moral Majority" were instrumental in placing Ronald Reagan in power. A president who presided over the Invasion of Grenada, and the Iran-Contra Affair, among other things...

After Reagan, the "Christian right" were instrumental in placing George H. W. Bush in power. A president who presided over the invasion of Panama, and the Gulf War, among other things...

I think these brief examples alone show that this man, and the people who held have him up to be some kind of icon could be said to have the blood of many people on their hands. That is without even going into his hate filled rhetoric. His racism and support for segregation or his homophobic views.

I could completely understand if some wanted to perhaps, coin a nice snappy buzzword to describe Mr Falwell and his ilk. Christionazi perhaps? Maybe Jesufascist? But of course, we can’t do that can we? It would not be ”proper”. We may only refer to the “animals” on the “other side” in such terms.

If this was a man from the "other side"; a fundamentalist Muslim who preached such hatred, and was instrumental in the election of such destructive leaders, then I believe many people would be expressing their joy at the news of his death, and I believe they would be doing so with impunity.

With these facts in mind, I can certainly understand why people may hold views that are outspoken. He was obviously a man who knew how to stir deep feelings. Even in death so it would seem. I find that ironic, because I view death as a release. It will come to us all. How many of us will care what is said about us when we are gone?

Hypocrisy is a form of ignorance. IMO, one of the worst forms, as it is the denial to see the nature of self. Belonging to one clique or another will blind you to such realities. Groupthink tends to reign supreme. It is with dismay I look around this site and see such blatant double standards, and with disdain I see them being upheld by a moderator.

I say it should be up to the individual in every case to make up their own mind, and it should be left up to God to decide which of us are right, and which are wrong.

apex,


These people have it wrong in so many ways. I don't think their old enough to understand right from wrong. Their physical age may say one thing but their mental age says different.

Implosion,

Personally, for me no matter who it is that has passed away, I always try and remember that person was loved and will be missed by someone. I often think what if it were my mother, how would I fill. Well it's the same here, he is a dad and husband to someone. I just always try and put someone else before me.