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Originally posted by Johnmike
They can't accurately predict global warming. It's only a theory, and far from proven. The Earth is still very much a mystery to scientists.
Originally posted by chrondoc
Global warming is a global political scam. If the oil company's put out a report that denied global warming it would be shot down and labled "bias". but when Al Gore and people like Mike Moore put out a fantacy description of how they precieve things, there is definetly no bias? Also what the heck do ex VP's and failed presidential hopefuls know about the enviornment? why do the three most outspoken poloticians that are bringing this issue to the arena flying around the country in the most polluting jets they can get their paws on? They sure seem worried...... for some information on the faults in the global warming theory ainst_global_warming.html
Originally posted by thebox
Excellent thread, I'll just add my little rant here...
I'm off to Norway on Monday and have been checking the weather forecast daily for over a month. Every single day I check various sources, accuweather, metcheck, etc and the forecast has been VASTLY different every time. This happens every time I go away, the weather is forecast so inaccurately that I genuinely don't know what to expect when I arrive in the country.
I know there is always going to be a margin for error but they're not even close half the time.
Originally posted by Ed Littlefox
Is Global Warming a "real" issue??
Originally posted by Ed Littlefox
Is the Data Valid??
Originally posted by Ed Littlefox
Are the calculations used by the sciences correct?
Yes, and they have been checked with redundancy several times over.
Originally posted by Ed Littlefox
Does Big Oil support the Findings?
Yes, Exxon definitely does--and so do the Governments of 54 Countries in the world. that, my friend, is the basis of the Kyoto Agreement--and our own Governmental Administration refused to sign it. Who is that? Geroge Bush -- aka --Big Oil.
'Nuff said.
Real report under wraps
By DR. TIM BALL, GUEST COLUMNIST
We are told hundreds of scientists played a role in writing the UN climate science report released last week. We are also told it proves that scientists agree -- human release of carbon dioxide is the primary cause of climate change and a catastrophe looms.
Fortunately, this is nonsense.
The report just released is merely the 'Summary for Policymakers,' an executive summary of the main report that no one outside a select group sworn to secrecy knows the contents of until May.
Why would the main report and its summary not be issued together?
According to official IPCC procedures, the main science report shall be modified after publication of the summary, so as to "ensure consistency with" the summary. But surely it is the summary that should be edited to reflect the contents of the science report it is supposedly summarizing.
.............
To understand why the IPCC does this, Canadians need to appreciate that the summary is not a scientifically neutral document. It is written to fulfill political objectives in support of carbon dioxide-reduction negotiations.
........................
IPCC lead author and NRSP Allied Scientist Prof. Richard Lindzen, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, explains: The summary "represents a consensus of government representatives (many of whom are also their nations' Kyoto representatives), rather than of scientists."
Lindzen also reveals that the summary had the input of not hundreds of IPCC scientists, but only about 30. The creation of the final version was conducted by a plenary session composed primarily of bureaucrats and representatives of environmental and industrial organizations.
..........................
This unorthodox reporting procedure led to the "Chapter 8 controversy" in 1995, in which significant and unwarranted modification of the IPCC science report was known to have been made before it was issued, so as to conform to the summary.
The fact many scientists were involved in reviewing the science report to be released in the spring does not necessarily mean these scientists agree with the report. NRSP Allied Scientist Dr. Madhav Khandekar was an official reviewer of parts of the document that related to his specialty (extreme weather) and has revealed the IPCC ignored his comments entirely.
NRSP Science Advisory Committee member, Dr. Vincent Gray, also an official IPCC reviewer, speaks about his own experience: "They sometimes take notice of your comments. They don't take much notice of mine because most of the time I don't agree with what they are saying. It is not like the scientific press, where you are supposed to answer objections; they don't bother to answer objections; they go their own way."
Originally posted by Muaddib
What data are you talking about? If you mean the computer models from proxies, the hockey stick graph is one of the examples on how wrong they can get their models. There are still some past Climate Changes we cannot understand completly, and the models have not been able to accurately predict past events.
....
Not really, several times they have to revise the data because they did not predict exactly what would happen, and the UN reports have been wrong because they used a flawed model, the Hockey Stick Graph, to make their assesments.
A hockey stick wake-up
June 26, 2006
EVER SINCE scientists in 1998 and 1999 charted the planet's temperature trends over the last 1,000 years, the graph's ``hockey stick" line reflecting centuries of temperature stability and a sharp jag upward in recent years has been a controversial symbol of the global warming debate. On Thursday, a special panel of scientists and statisticians convened by the National Academy of Sciences largely confirmed the research behind the graphed data. Those in the energy industry, the Bush administration, and Congress who deny that heat-trapping greenhouse gas emissions are changing the climate of the planet have one less excuse for doing so.
A panel of the National Research Council recently looked at the 1999 study by Mr. Mann's group and found problems with it. The panel questioned some specific conclusions of the paper but supported some of its general findings.
One criticism of the 1999 graph centers on the method used to produce it. Some researchers argue that the technique automatically generates hockey-stick shapes in data. The National Research Council found that criticism valid but said it did not seriously affect the results. Studies done with other techniques have produced similar findings.
For the earliest part of the 1999 analysis, Mr. Mann's group relied heavily on bristlecone pines from western North America. The original study noted that there were some difficulties in using such trees because of peculiarities in their recent growth, but Mr. Mann and his group attempted to quantify those problems and to work around them. The National Research Council suggested that researchers avoid using trees that are the most difficult to interpret. More-recent studies have avoided those trees and reached similar conclusions.
Originally posted by melatonin
The Mann et al. data was not flawed, it has been replicated more than once.
............
Climate History: Hot and Cold. Scientists first noted that the Roman and Medieval warmings were part of a much longer pattern when Greenland ice cores, first brought up in 1984, provided 250,000 years of climate history. Evidence of the 1,500-year climate cycle has since been found in Antarctic glaciers, in the seabed sediments of four oceans, in ancient tree rings, and in cave stalagmites on all the continents and New Zealand. But 1,500-year cycles were too long and too moderate for ancient peoples without thermometers and written records to discern.
In Europe, the Roman Warming lasted from 200 B.C. to A.D. 600. It allowed grapes and olives to be grown farther north, and good rains allowed the Romans to buy abundant grain from across the Mediterranean in North Africa. The Roman Warming was followed by the cold Dark Ages (A.D. 600 to 950). Weather is far less stable during the cold phases of the climate cycle. Widespread droughts and storms drove hordes of hungry barbarians to assault the granaries of the collapsing Roman Empire.
The Medieval Warming prevailed from about A.D. 950 to 1300, bringing ample sunshine, milder storms and longer growing seasons. Food harvests were so good that Britain’s population rose from an estimated 1.4 million people in the late 11th century to 5 million in 1300. Europe’s total population increased from 40 million to 60 million — during a period when temperatures rose higher than today’s.
From 1300 to 1850, the planet shifted into the Little Ice Age. The good weather ended abruptly. During the summer of 1315, incessant sheets of rain fell from May to August throughout Europe, washing away much of the topsoil and beating crops to the ground. In late summer, the weather turned unseasonably cold, and the soft kernels of the few surviving grain plants were attacked by fungus. Across northern Europe, harvests were disastrous, and famine set in.
Nearly 1,700 years ago, devastating tempests associated with sea-level rise destroyed villages of the Calusa Indians on the southwest Florida coast, near present-day Fort Myers, forcing the native fishermen to move inland to relative safety, said UF anthropologist Karen Walker.
Walker's clues to storms, sea-level rise and migration include village remains buried by storm-surge sediment, and other village deposits found at higher elevations than where they should be. In addition, the modest shells and fishbones left behind by the Indians, she said, show ecological correlations between rising sea levels and global warming periods documented in the historical record of ancient Europe.
"As we enter into a modern warming period, which seems to be the case, Florida is likely to experience flooded shorelines and an increase of intense storms," Walker said. "I think that it's not a coincidence that there were major storms recorded at some of the archaeological sites that I study and that those storms happened during the warm Roman Optimum period. I have the storms closely dated to the fourth century AD."
Global warming is not new, said Walker, explaining that a variety of evidence points to a global episode of warming, dubbed the Roman Optimum, which occurred roughly from 200 B.C. and about A.D. 400, and a later episode, the Medieval Optimum, which took place from about A.D. 800 to A.D. 1200. A cooling episode named the Vandal Minimum occurred roughly between the two warmings.
"By studying many archaeological deposits from many locations, I see a picture showing that sea-level fluctuations in Florida correlate to these climate fluctuations known from European history," she said.
Originally posted by melatonin
Also, Tim Ball is not a good source for anything useful, he has no credibility on this issue. Lying about credentials isn't the best sign of an honest critic.
[edit on 10-2-2007 by melatonin]
Dr. Ball is a renowned environmental consultant and former professor of climatology at the University of Winnipeg. Dr. Ball has served on many local and national committees and as Chair of Provincial boards on water management, environmental issues and sustainable development. Dr. Ball has given over 600 public talks over the last decade on science and the environment. He is the co-author of the book Eighteenth Century Naturalists of Hudson Bay (2004 - McGill/Queens University Press) with Dr. Stuart Houston, one of the World's leading authorities on arctic birds.
Dr. Ball’s extensive science background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition, make him the ideal head of NRSP as we move into our first campaign, Understanding Climate Change. His extensive public speaking experience and presentations to professional societies, business conferences, public forums and a wide variety of public, private and non-profit organizations make him the ideal spokesperson for NRSP as well.
His other work in such areas as water resources, sustainable development, pollution prevention, environmental regulations, the impact of government policy on business and economics will be invaluable as NRSP tackles other issues starting later in 2007.
Throughout his career, Dr. Ball has been heavily involved in local and national committees related to climate, water and river management and hazardous waste. He is regular contributing writer for Country Guide and has appeared as a guest opinion writer in all of Canada’s major newspapers.
Climatologist
Tim Ball
Climatologist, Author & Environmental Consultant,
Dr. Tim Ball, one of the first Canadians to hold a Ph.D. in climatology, wrote his doctoral thesis at the University of London (England) using the remarkable records of the Hudson's Bay Company to reconstruct climate change from 1714 - 1952. He has published numerous articles on climate change and its impact on the human condition. Dr. Ball has served on numerous committees at the federal, provincial, and municipal levels on climate, water resources, and environmental issues. He was a professor in the geography department at the University of Winnipeg before retiring. He has written a regular column on weather in the agricultural magazine. Country Guide, for 14 years. He is currently working as an environmental consultant and public speaker based in Victoria and has written, with Dr. Stuart Houston, 18th Century Naturalists on Hudson Bay, a book on the science and climate of the fur trade (McGill-Queens University Press, 2003).
Originally posted by etotheitheta
With a bread basket full of money under the nose, I could tell you global warming is going to hit mankind and wipe out half the world population in 20 years.
Timo Niroma:
Sunspots: The 200-year sunspot cycle is also a weather cycle.
A 2000-year historical perspective.
-- The Roman Empire and its demise.
-- The Mayan Classic Period.
-- When the Nile froze in 829 AD.
-- Why is it Iceland and Greenland and not vice versa?
-- Tambora did not cause it.
-- The spotless century 200 AD.
-- The recent warming caused by Sun.
-- The 200-year weather pattern.
A 2000-year historical perspective
The other supercycle, besides the Gleissberg, that most often is referred to in the present-day data, is a 200-year supercycle. The Gleissberg cycle is usually cited with one of two values, accurately as 78 years, inaccurately as 80 years, but the 200-year cycle has no agreed-upon value, mostly the values referred to are from 180 to 220 years.
Explicitly there is no 200-year cycle in the Elatina data, but I have interpreted that the 29.2 "sawtooth pattern" represents a cycle of 173 years, which means that it may be a variant of the 200-year cycle. In addition, the longest of the remaining Elatina supercycles is 105 years. There is also a 52-year cycle, which is not seen in today's data. One interpretation could be that the corresponding cycles today are 105 (weak) and 210 (strong) years. There are indications that the possible 200-year cycle really oscillates today. Would this hint to limits of 170 and 210 years in Elatina data, corresponding to from 180 to 220 years in today's data. That may mean a change in the Sun's cyclicity or in the Earth's rotation rate or rather a mixup of these both factors.
Originally posted by Muaddib
Some more informaiton on Dr. Tim Ball
Climatologist
Tim Ball
Climatologist, Author & Environmental Consultant,
Dr. Tim Ball, one of the first Canadians to hold a Ph.D. in climatology, wrote his doctoral thesis at the University of London (England) using the remarkable records of the Hudson's Bay Company to reconstruct climate change from 1714 - 1952. He has published numerous articles on climate change and its impact on the human condition. Dr. Ball has served on numerous committees at the federal, provincial, and municipal levels on climate, water resources, and environmental issues. He was a professor in the geography department at the University of Winnipeg before retiring. He has written a regular column on weather in the agricultural magazine. Country Guide, for 14 years. He is currently working as an environmental consultant and public speaker based in Victoria and has written, with Dr. Stuart Houston, 18th Century Naturalists on Hudson Bay, a book on the science and climate of the fur trade (McGill-Queens University Press, 2003).
www.fraserinstitute.ca...
Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and that for 32 years I was a Professor of Climatology at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.
Originally posted by Muaddib
Really? They try a dissapearing act of two warming events, the Roman Warming and the Medieval Warming, which have been corroborated by the geological record from all over the world, and both of which were warmer than today, plus the Little Ice age which has also been corroborated by the geological record, and you think that this link you are giving which claims "for the past 1,000 years there was temperature stability", which is an obvious lie, is the proof that Mann's graph is right?.....
Originally posted by Muaddib
I wonder why is it that everytime some researcher refutes anything about "mankind's role on Global Warming", there are hundreds and hundreds of "letters" and accusations trying to discredit these people?...
Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and that for 32 years I was a Professor of Climatology at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.
In 1988 a climatologist, James Hansen, claimed in front of Congress that global temperatures would rise by 0.3C by the end of the century, they rose 0.1C. He also claimed that sea levels would rise several feet, and they only rose one inch.
China Finds No “Unprecedented Warming” in Today’s Climate
Dennis T. Avery
Chinese climate researchers say today’s world climate shows no unprecedented warming. After analyzing nine separate Chinese historic temperature sources, they’ve concluded that China’s warmest temperatures occurred nearly 2000 years ago when Europe was in the well-documented Roman Warming.
Global warming activists want us to believe the world had nice, stable temperatures until humans came along in the 20th century and created the “greenhouse effect” with auto exhausts and heavy industry.
Greenpeace claims that the Dunde glacial ice cap in central Asia yields temperature information for the last 12,000 years and the warming since 1850 has been ”unprecedented.”
Jonathon Overpeck of the U.S. National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration called 1998 “the warmest year in at least 1200 years.” He even suggested that the famed Medieval Warming Period (recorded in Europe between 900 and 1300 AD, with temperatures 47 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than today) happened only in Europe!
Chinese researchers sharply disagree. Chinese temperature history, collected from such sources as peat bogs, lakebed sediments, ice cores, and tree rings, shows:
China was warmest between the year 1 AD and the year 240 AD (during Europe’s Roman Warming).
China then had a colder period from AD 240800, coinciding with the cold European weather of the Dark Ages.
China had warmer weather from AD 8001400, essentially the years of Europe’s Medieval Climate Optimum.
China cooled again between 1400 and 1820 (roughly the period of Europe’s Little Ice Age. (That’s when the Vikings who had settled Greenland during the Medieval Warming starved or froze to death.)
China’s current warming cycle began in the early 1800s, as did the recent warming in Europe and North America.
Overpeck’s suggestion that the Medieval Warming was a Europe-only event is controversial, but a number of climate researchers have said, “Research has failed to identify any known natural climate-forcing mechanism that could have generated all of the ‘unprecedented warming’ of the 20th century.”
Of course, it is at least as unlikely that Europe could have maintained a temperature substantially higher than the rest of the planet for more than 300 years.
Fortunately, recent U.S. research breaks the theoretical deadlock. A team led by Dr. Gerard Bond of the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory (affiliated with New York’s Columbia University) recently released its analysis of seabed cores from the North Atlantic that go back 12,000 years. Looking at iceberg debris, the Bond team found nine global warmings and nine global coolings in a cycle that averaged 1340 years and coincided exactly with a known cycle in the sun’s magnetic activity.
The Chinese climate history, published recently in Geophysical Research Letters, further validates the Bond team’s seabed core findings. It also tosses into a cocked hat both the idea of stable earth temperatures and the idea that Europe could have a climate separate from the rest of the Earth.
Dr. Sally Baliunas, an astrophysicist at the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, has long warned that the main greenhouse effect is natural. She says water vapor, clouds, and such variables as sea ice are at least ten times as important as carbon dioxide levels in atmospheric warming or cooling. Dr. Baliunas also notes that virtually all of today’s warming occurred before 1940. A slight cooling from 1940 to 1970, with a slight warming trend since then, followed the pre-1940 warming. None of this lends much credence to the theory that human industries are making the planet warmer.
A team of scientist from Austria and Germany located three stalagmites in the Spannagel Cave located around 2,500 m above sea level at the end of the Tux Valley in Tyrol (Austria) close to the Hintertux glacier. The temperature of the cave stays near freezing and the relative humidity in the cave is always at or near 100%. The stalagmites grew at a rate between 17 and 75 millionths of a meter per year and are nearly 10,000 years old.
...............
The stalagmite is screaming to us that many periods in the past 9,000 years were warmer than present-day conditions!
The five scientists determined that the mean temperature of the Medieval Warm Period in northwest Spain was 1.5°C warmer than it was over the 30 years leading up to the time of their study, and that the mean temperature of the Roman Warm Period was 2°C warmer. Even more impressive was their finding that several decadal-scale intervals during the Roman Warm Period were more than 2.5°C warmer than the 1968-98 period, while an interval in excess of 80 years during the Medieval Warm Period was more than 3°C warmer.
Nearly 1,700 years ago, devastating tempests associated with sea-level rise destroyed villages of the Calusa Indians on the southwest Florida coast, near present-day Fort Myers, forcing the native fishermen to move inland to relative safety, said UF anthropologist Karen Walker.
Walker's clues to storms, sea-level rise and migration include village remains buried by storm-surge sediment, and other village deposits found at higher elevations than where they should be. In addition, the modest shells and fishbones left behind by the Indians, she said, show ecological correlations between rising sea levels and global warming periods documented in the historical record of ancient Europe.
"As we enter into a modern warming period, which seems to be the case, Florida is likely to experience flooded shorelines and an increase of intense storms," Walker said. "I think that it's not a coincidence that there were major storms recorded at some of the archaeological sites that I study and that those storms happened during the warm Roman Optimum period. I have the storms closely dated to the fourth century AD."
Global warming is not new, said Walker, explaining that a variety of evidence points to a global episode of warming, dubbed the Roman Optimum, which occurred roughly from 200 B.C. and about A.D. 400, and a later episode, the Medieval Optimum, which took place from about A.D. 800 to A.D. 1200. A cooling episode named the Vandal Minimum occurred roughly between the two warmings.
"By studying many archaeological deposits from many locations, I see a picture showing that sea-level fluctuations in Florida correlate to these climate fluctuations known from European history," she said.
Group rejects 'unfounded' global warming claims
Email this storyPrint this story Monday May 01, 2006
A group of leading climate scientists has announced the formation of the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition, aimed at refuting what it believes are unfounded claims about man-made global warming.
"We believe this is a significant development in opening up the debate about the real effects of climate change and the justification for the costs and other measures prescribed in the Kyoto protocols," said the coalition's secretary, Terry Dunleavy.
He said members of the coalition had had enough of "over-exaggerated" claims about the effects of man-made global warming and aimed to provide a balance to "what is being fed to the people of New Zealand".
ST. PETERSBURG, January 15 (RIA Novosti) - Rising levels of carbon dioxide and other gases emitted through human activities, believed by scientists to trap heat in the Earth's atmosphere, are an effect rather than the cause of global warming, a prominent Russian scientist said Monday.
Habibullo Abdusamatov, head of the space research laboratory at the St. Petersburg-based Pulkovo Observatory, said global warming stems from an increase in the sun's activity. His view contradicts the international scientific consensus that climate change is attributable to the emission of greenhouse gases generated by industrial activities, such as the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation.
"Global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity," Abdusamatov told RIA Novosti in an interview.
Originally posted by Muaddib
The pure distortion is how Mann, and others have tried to dismiss and even erase the Roman Warming Period, the Medieval Warming period and even the Little Ice Age because it doesn't help their claims...
That's "pure distortion".
Meanwhile Mann and others want to claim we are currently going through a warmer period than ever before, data from several sources from all around the world keep proving what the following graphs shows.
Nature 443, 161-166 (14 September 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature05072
Variations in solar luminosity and their effect on the Earth's climate
P. Foukal1, C. Fröhlich2, H. Spruit3 and T. M. L. Wigley4
Abstract
Variations in the Sun's total energy output (luminosity) are caused by changing dark (sunspot) and bright structures on the solar disk during the 11-year sunspot cycle. The variations measured from spacecraft since 1978 are too small to have contributed appreciably to accelerated global warming over the past 30 years. In this Review, we show that detailed analysis of these small output variations has greatly advanced our understanding of solar luminosity change, and this new understanding indicates that brightening of the Sun is unlikely to have had a significant influence on global warming since the seventeenth century. Additional climate forcing by changes in the Sun's output of ultraviolet light, and of magnetized plasmas, cannot be ruled out. The suggested mechanisms are, however, too complex to evaluate meaningfully at present.
Source: University Of California - Davis
Date: August 30, 2006
Greenhouse Methane Released From Ice Age Ocean
Science Daily — Periods of warming temperatures during the last ice age triggered the release of methane from beneath the ocean, according to U.S. and French researchers. Once in the atmosphere, the methane would have acted as a heat-trapping greenhouse gas.
"This is a new source of methane which has not been looked at before," said Tessa Hill, now assistant professor of geology at UC Davis and at the university's Bodega Marine Laboratory.
Off the California coast -- and elsewhere around the world -- natural petroleum seeps release oil, tar and gas into the bottom of the ocean. Some methane gas finds its way to the surface, while the tar sinks back to the bottom.
Gas Escaping From Ocean Floor May Drive Global Warming
Gas escaping from the ocean floor may provide some answers to understanding historical global warming cycles and provide information on current climate changes, according to a team of scientists at the University of California, Santa Barbara. The findings are reported in the July 20 on-line version of the scientific journal, Global Biogeochemical Cycles.
Remarkable and unexpected support for this idea occurred when divers and scientists from UC Santa Barbara observed and videotaped a massive blowout of methane from the ocean floor. It happened in an area of gas and oil seepage coming out of small volcanoes in the ocean floor of the Santa Barbara channel –– called Shane Seep –– near an area known as the Coal Oil Point seep field. The blowout sounded like a freight train, according to the divers.
Source: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: September 8, 2006
Siberian Lakes Burp 'Time-bomb' Greenhouse Gas
Science Daily — Frozen bubbles in Siberian lakes are releasing methane, a greenhouse gas, at rates that appear to be “... five times higher than previously estimated” and acting as a positive feedback to climate warming, said Katey Walter, in a paper published today in the journal Nature.