The Schism in UFOlogy

Originally posted by observe50
There is proof but it's not good enough because of the hoaxers.

Earth will always have the bad that will try to cover the good.

I will tell you, "THERE ARE ALIENS" and they are here in the deepest of our waters.

The problem is people do not have the gut feeling or the sense to when someone is telling them a truth.

As I said, show me the proof. I'm tired of the, "I know a guy who knows a guy who saw this ufo base under the Atlantic Ocean," b.s. That's not proof. That's hearsay, campfire story-telling at its basest.

[edit on 18-10-2006 by behindthescenes]

hmmmmmmmmmmm, I'm not the guy that know's a guy.

Proof, just open your eyes and observe.

I do think that there is a very high probability/potential that there are other beings in existence in our universe and that they are most definately physical/corporeal in nature, albeit it most likely not like us, but similar in some ways perhaps.

Originally posted by observe50
hmmmmmmmmmmm, I'm not the guy that know's a guy.

Proof, just open your eyes and observe.

Observe....you sound metaphysically lunatic. That is not proof.

In case you need a refresher, this is from Merriam Webster's:

a: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity.

"Opening my eyes" and observing an undefined objective does not constitute proof. It constitutes faith and opinion.

Sorry, bud. You still haven't put up in my opinion.

Abduction stories aside, the vast number of UFO sightings, all of which can't be hoax or misidentification by virtue of laws of probability, are a phenomena that should be seriously studied. If it ends up that a universal fault in the human brain manufactures visual images of a similar nature in all people, THAT would be facinating. If indeed the abduction accounts are the result of subconcious brain activity during sleep it makes many things more plausible.

Of course the capture of unexplainable images on film and video has no foundation in sleep disorders so we have a separate, unique and completely unrelated facet of the whole phenomena.

Originally posted by Cruizer
Abduction stories aside, the vast number of UFO sightings, all of which can't be hoax or misidentification by virtue of laws of probability, are a phenomena that should be seriously studied.

I disagree. I think even a cursory examination on YouTube indicates to me that the field is rife with a preponderance of frauds, hoaxes and misidentifications.

Of course the capture of unexplainable images on film and video has no foundation in sleep disorders so we have a separate, unique and completely unrelated facet of the whole phenomena.

I have not seen anything on film that has ever convinced me of a genuine UFO, in the sense of an ET-controlled aircraft.

Originally posted by masqua
What are the aliens?

Are they flesh and blood beings who exist in our material universe or are they spiritual beings?

Is there really a difference? We are spiritual beings and we are also flesh and blood beings. These are two aspects of life that are a paradox to me.

Originally posted by masqua
Some will say they are so highly evolved that they are both, manifesting themselves here from alternate universes, etc.

Well keep in mind that traveling a great distance IS dimensional travel. Time and space are the same thing. In fact you can view it as time does not exist, only space. I look at my age as the journey my flesh has traveled.

Originally posted by masqua
What I'd like to know is how many believe they are beings from other planets in our galaxy (or beyond) and how many think they are angels, demons or spiritual beings?

You had to bring religion into it didn't you? I suppose there is no way around it. Religion is all about belief. I believe we are all angels, demons, and spiritual beings as well as flesh and blood creatures. That's not to say that all creatures are all of these things though. Some may be only a few or one of these things.

Originally posted by TruthCanHurt
Is there really a difference? We are spiritual beings and we are also flesh and blood beings. These are two aspects of life that are a paradox to me.

Good point, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

You see, what I'm really trying to establish here is a platform for discussion on the two extremes... totally material alien beings who travelled here in actual spacecraft and their exact opposite - spiritual beings who may inhabit the universe, but exist within it as spirits.

Well keep in mind that traveling a great distance IS dimensional travel. Time and space are the same thing. In fact you can view it as time does not exist, only space. I look at my age as the journey my flesh has traveled.

I understand that. You could also state that reincarnation from past lives mean your journeys through space and time go back through the Big Bang and on further. If the soul really does not ever die, then it never died in the past as well and the Big Bang was that moment in Time when 'all spirit' was ONE.

You had to bring religion into it didn't you? I suppose there is no way around it. Religion is all about belief. I believe we are all angels, demons, and spiritual beings as well as flesh and blood creatures. That's not to say that all creatures are all of these things though. Some may be only a few or one of these things.

Well, without the theology of The One, Creator or Supreme Being and the relationship of soul/spirit to that theology, there would be no belief in spiritual beings at all.

I see you fall directly 'on the fence' then, whereby you believe aliens are both flesh and blood AND spiritual beings. I'm not knocking that reasoning at all, TCH, in fact, I think many would ultimately agree with that thinking.

But the thing is, I'm trying to explore the 'schism' here.

There are many people who are not religious and do not believe in spiritual things. Such people will look at the evidence of UFOs and reason that there must be beings piloting such craft. They will then consider the possibility of life elsewhere in the wide universe and speculate on the likelyhood of 'them' traversing the parsecs and coming here to see what's causing all the radio chatter, nuclear detonations or I Love Lucy reruns...

Then there are those who are very religious and, when confronted by the same phenomena, may think they are 'signs'. Such people may also consider them as angels or demons presaging the Rapture. The 'alien' beings to these people are manifestations of pure spirit and are in no measure 'flesh and blood' like humans.

In between those two camps are others, who believe that the human experience is both spiritual and material. As a Pantheist myself, I could hardly disagree with you.

Hope that clears the issue up.

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by TruthCanHurt
Is there really a difference? We are spiritual beings and we are also flesh and blood beings. These are two aspects of life that are a paradox to me.

Good point, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

You see, what I'm really trying to establish here is a platform for discussion on the two extremes... totally material alien beings who travelled here in actual spacecraft and their exact opposite - spiritual beings who may inhabit the universe, but exist within it as spirits.

Okay, so the two extremes for you would be the pure spirit and what; pure flesh?
Flesh without spirit, does it exist? I'm not sure but I think maybe so. The very small things (life forms) come to mind. But at which point do we consider that they have a soal? A bacteria? a plant? a mouse? cat? dog? human?

Originally posted by masqua
In between those two camps are others, who believe that the human experience is both spiritual and material. As a Pantheist myself, I could hardly disagree with you.

Hope that clears the issue up.

I'm more aligned to Panentheism than Pantheism. The understanding of human experience is something that is hard to quantify, however. It is so subjective after all. What is really real and what is not. They say that life is but a dream. A very persistant one at that. But is a dream real? I do know that some dreams are more than fantacy.

personally i think they're 100% solid living beings. i'm not sure if they're visiting us. but i think it's highly probable. i believe it's fear of the unknown that leads people to think they are either angels or demons.


my two cents

optimus

Originally posted by optimus primal
personally i think they're 100% solid living beings.

Thanks for getting back on topic, optimus.

The discussion of religions has specific forums dedicated to it, but there seems to be a trickle of religion manifesting within the Aliens and UFO's forum as well, mostly in the manner as we're already seeing in this thread.

That's fine, to a certain degree, but not on topic in this particular thread which is looking for the two solitudes rather than the pliable middle ground. Your comment above is plain and there is nothing which could cloud the issue.

The way I read it is this;
These beings evolved in another part of our universe, became advanced with technology and began to explore the planets and stars in the galaxy, perhaps even to other galaxies. Maybe they found us thousands of years ago or maybe in the last century...but they are solid, three dimensional beings.

Not seeing many post who are certain of them being pure spirit though...only some who prefer to see both solitudes together, which is imho, the basis of most, if not all religions.

Let's pose the question from another angle -

Should study of UFOs and their perceived pilots/crews be a scientific study or a theological philosophy?

Originally posted by masqua

Should study of UFOs and their perceived pilots/crews be a scientific study or a theological philosophy?

Well the aliens quite simply are millions of years ahead in their scientific understanding of physical nature. They are using science to create spiritual phenomena. So it's not wise to separate that type of phenomena from the alien arena totally, because it is one of their modes of communication with humans.

The aliens come to me through portals in space. Science isn't even aware that portals exist. So I can't use science to explain the aliens appearance.

The aliens are the missing link between religion and science. If you keep them separate then you relegate our world to the dark ages for another thousand years.

Here is another interesting question, do spiritial beings (angels and demons) need vehicles for transport or travelling?

If science did not progress to what it is today, and mankind is still very primitive and religious and these "beings" were to manifiest infront of us, would they not seem like angels or demons, gods to us.

Can a very technologically advance spiecies use its knowledge and technology to trick a primitive being into believe that they are Gods?

Imagine that "magic" were considered spells until the general population knew how they were done were they down graded to "illusions"

What is to say that our science and our discoveries will not one day lead us to uncover our true orgins, creation and purpouse of our creation and the state of the universe at large, including maybe the other technologically advanced aliens in it.