The Lucifer Conspiracy

is one I AM totally sick to death of!

It seems no one really cares to find out the truth, even if it means they are mistaking the identity of the one they love!

Isaiah 14:12
Heylel - according to Strong’s Concordance and Brown Driver Briggs
Lucifer – according to Jerome’s ad-lib translation (Latin Vulgate)
Helel – according to the Scriptures 98 translation (from the Institute for Scripture Research)
‘day-star, son of the morning’ – according to the Jerusalem Publication Society Version

Also: ‘light-bearer’ (according to the dictionaries); a noun which comes from the root verb which means ‘to shine (of God’s favor)’ and/or to ‘flash forth light.’ It can also mean: ‘praise, boast, or be boastful.’ This is inclusive of several variations: to be worthy of praise, to praise another, and to praise self.

‘Aaron’ also represents illumination (light-bringer). This is fitting, considering he was the first High Priest and aside from wearing the breast-plate with the Urim (flame) and the Thummin (perfect truth), one of his prestigious services was over the Holy Fire used in the temple.

Interesting fact:

If we change just one letter in Heylel (the first lamed – 12th letter of the aleph-bet)
הילל

and change it to another (kaf – the 11th letter) we have the word for ‘temple!’
היכל

The first word is symbolically rendered as: ‘spirit of God – right hand of God – teaching/learning – teaching/learning’
The second one becomes: ‘spirit of God – right hand of God – crowning accomplishment – teaching/learning’

Looking at the passage in Isaiah again:

14:14 I will ascend(5927 also ‘be taken up,’ ‘be exalted’) above(5921 also ‘beside,’ ‘next to,’ ‘together with’) the heights(1116) of the clouds;(5645) I will be like(1819 or ‘resemble’) the most High(5945 Elyon).

Now. Look at some NT verses:

Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And Paul writes, in Philippians 2:6-9:

Who, being in the form (resemblence) of (the most High) God, thought it not robbery to be equal with (next to, beside) God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted (God exalted) him, and given him a name which is above (higher than) every name:

Also:
Isaiah 14:10
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Matthew 27:39
And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, .(…) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save…

Also in Mark and Luke there are very similar passages…and in John 19:7 this is written:

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

‘Son of God’ made himself the Son of God…. Who made him the Son of God? There is but ONE with that power…

And the ONE who holds that rule can bring down low just the same as He can lift up….

Remember Nebuchadnezzar’s report on what he had learned (after being brought down and then restored his kingdom)?

Daniel 4:37
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Isaiah was prophesying about our LORD!!! (that’s ALL prophesy is about, anyway – always….anything the prophets foretold was, without fail, somehow to do with God’s anointed!)

It’s time to quit calling our LORD ‘satan’ because we are too lazy to do proper truth-seeking in the scriptures (BE a BEREAN – I dare ya!) or too attached to our previous ideas….it doesn’t matter what is TRUE as long as we trust GOD to show us…

The truth is AMAZING and not at all what any man could ever guess…

While I certainly think there is an entity by the name of Lucifer, I have often quipped that Satan is just a scapegoat for the evil that men do. Rather than being held accountable for one's actions, it's much easier to blame an "adversary."

You bring up an interesting subject. Translation. I have often mentiones in my posts about mistranslation and manipulations of the bible. The last count I had, I am sure that it is many more now,I quit keeping up with it years ago, the bible had been translated 528 times.

To my notion, that leaves a lot of room for mishap.

I think lucifer was just the loosing faction in a ancient war that involved mankind helping as pons to the "Angels." The victorious side got to write history and demonise the other. THere are arguments one can make that put satan in the favorable light and not "god" or the victorious side.

Maybe telling us that all satan wants to do is trick us into believing wrong is Gods way of preventing us from learning the truth. WHy would any parent want to deny knowledge to their children if only to maintaine leverage over them.

I have always had trouble connecting satan with evil. I see things that I can say were biased opinions of him/it but no cold hard facts, so the real lucifer is up to pure speculation. Lucifer could be like the oracle in the matrix movies and god the architect.

And translation is a very good point to bring up in this thread. I feel that there was massive un intentional or intentional miss transcription in the ancient holy works.

Interesting topic. As I've said before, L. Ray Smith is one of my favorite scriptural commentators. He does (IMO) an excellent job of explaining, and backs up everything with source material that can be verified independently.

He's got a sizable section on Lucifer which I'll briefly quote-

So what is this heylel/halal of Isa. 14:12? Here is the problem—too many translations of previous translations without checking the Hebrew manuscripts first.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

The Latin and the Greek, as well as a supposed form of a "Hebrew" word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." The problem is, however, that Isa.14:12 was not written in Latin or Greek, but Hebrew. And I assure you that "lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, as we saw defined above, all of which suggest brightness or shining. Likewise xosphoros in the Greek derived English words such as, fluorescence and phosphorescence.

But, there seems to be no Hebrew or Aramaic text in which there is a word in this verse to correspond. What we find in all such texts is the word "hehlehl,’ eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill. And what is the meaning of "ill"? Are you ready? It means HOWL. That’s right, "Lucifer" turns out to be nothing more than a "howl" (maybe of ‘hot air’)!

>SNIP<

Now you can be the judge. In all Hebrew of Aramaic texts of Isa. 14:12, the only word found is "heh-lehl," eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill, meaning howl. Here is Kittel’s Hebrew Text for the Hebrew Stem ill—"yah-lahl"—HOWL:

Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)

[url=http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html]>SOURCE

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
While I certainly think there is an entity by the name of Lucifer, I have often quipped that Satan is just a scapegoat for the evil that men do.

Acutally, you've hit the nail squarely on the head, my friend! Aside from the name 'satan' - which is not an actual name, in the first place (in the original Hebrew) - it is a title, a function, a role - an opponent - and it is more to act as catalyst, proving ground, and challenge for growth! Something we all are put to do with one another from time to time!

Check this out:

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. ~1 Chronicles 21:1

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ~2 Samuel 24:1

In case you're not aware, the story told in 1 and 2 Chronicles - in certain places - is basically identical to that which is related in the books named after Samuel. Those two verses are one such instance. It is the very same incident....but one author says 'Satan provoked David' and the other writes that the LORD's anger was kindled and so He 'moved David' to do something which was only going to add fuel to the fire. (as it goes on to tell about)

And, to me, it truly seems more like a choice when it says Satan provoked....if the LORD moved David to do something, I doubt there was any question of David doing it, or not!

And, doing a search on the actual word, in English, 'satan' - it is found 30 times in the OT, but 26 times are in the book of Job (which uses it as a name for the sake of the story - if it really were a proper noun, it would have the Hebrew letter 'he' tacked on the end, which it does not.)

But to look up the word that is translated into 'Satan' (which is H7854) - 27 instances are given. A couple of examples of the same word, translated in various ways:

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him. ~Numbers 22:22

And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: ~Numbers 22:32

And another example (human adversary this time):

And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel? ~2 Samuel 19:22

And certainly evil is not something that doesn't come from the same source that good does:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ~Isaiah 45:7

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? ~Amos 3:6

Lucifer isn't anything, AT ALL, to do with the scripture, either (as a name, that is).

I'll address that further down in a different post.

Rather than being held accountable for one's actions, it's much easier to blame an "adversary."

No doubt!! That's called 'copping out' where I come from!

God isn't going to blame His angels (or Himself) for obeying Him when He chooses to challenge a human being....God gives us all things for our own good. We may not realize it now, but what can we do? We are accountable - and if we do not try to pass the buck or make excuses...there is nothing so bad that we can do that we will lose what we already have been given (the promise of a new world without war and hatred...and misery and tears)!

Aside from lying...hypocrisy....and scorning truth (blasphemy of the Spirit), that is.

It will be better to be an atheist in front of the judgment seat than a delusional mainstream indoctrinated christian!

Originally posted by yeahright
Interesting topic. As I've said before, L. Ray Smith is one of my favorite scriptural commentators. He does (IMO) an excellent job of explaining, and backs up everything with source material that can be verified independently.

I think I've read some of his stuff before....he IS pretty on target.

Although, in this case, he's not been thorough enough, as regarding the context that Isaiah inserted this one-time-only (truly proper noun/name) into his writings.

This is what I've come up with, in depth:

Strongs says:

H1966
from H1984 (in the sense of brightness)

All Hebrew nouns are children of verb parents. Even names. This is the only place the word H1966 is found, but the root verb, H1984, is found many, many places in the OT....

And the verb form only leaves out the 'yod' which is symbolically 'the right hand of God.' That makes it a good possibility as a clue to identity...

About H1984, Strong's says:

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

And BDB:

1) to shine
1a) (Qal) to shine (figuratively of God’s favour)
1b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2) to praise, boast, be boastful
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to be boastful
2a2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)
2b) (Piel)
2b1) to praise
2b2) to boast, make a boast
2c) (Pual)
2c1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
2d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one’s boast
2e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
2f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman

Now, there are many different verses (that I won't post) that use that word to the extent of the variety permitted within those definitions...it could really mean ANYTHING without some comparison with other characters in the OT.

We know that it was one of the Kings of Babylon:

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! ~Isaiah 14:4

We don't really have too many choices. And if you consider that this was an oppressor that magnified himself against the LORD....whose kingdom was removed and not found any more...there are two choices:

Nebuchadnezzar or his son Balshazzar (who saw the writing on the wall). The son didn't oppress - he drank from the golden cups his father seized from the temple and that night he died. Then it became the kingdom of Darius the Mede. (and the Persians a bit later).

Daniel chapter 4:

Neb dreams of a tree (that is felled but the stump is left).

He is warned by Daniel what the dream means.

12 months later he's long forgotten the warning and so he looks out over his vast kingdom (which it was truly - the biggest ever and they've dug up proof) and says
'Look what I'VE done - I'm so awesome and wonderful and look what a kingdom I've got myself.'

Before he's done speaking...boom! He's a beast without a kingdom, feathers and claws and all that....eating in the pasture with the other cattle...

Actually, there is pretty good evidence that Neb actually succumbed to lycanthropy for about 7 years - which is where the idea of the 'wolfman' comes from (a literal psychosis that causes a person to believe they are literally a wolf!).
And it appears that he recovered from it! (which is unheard of!)

History says he got his kingdom back and died in with his idolatrous habits (he was quite a study in psychology, it seems - and likely a dwarf or suffering from some other small-statured affliction).

But the bible says this (to serve as a lesson - Daniel is a DEEP book):

And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him,

What doest thou? At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
~Daniel 4:34-37

Nebuchadezzar boasted (vainly) upon himself, and wound up mad - and maybe even literally howling as Mr. Smith suggests!!!

Nebuchadnezzar was Heylel!

As always, thanks for your well thought out input. Gives me even more to think about, and my plate's already pretty full.

If you have a chance to look at that link, I think you'd find it interesting.

Here's another excerpt from the same section (really not exactly on topic, but I like it enough I just had to share it)-

Let me give you the history of the world including all future prophecies, in one sentence:

God perfectly planned and recorded His creation of the heavens, angels, the earth, and carnal humanity, who sinned wickedly and were all drowned (save a few); who then reached for their own heaven at the tower of Babel in rebellion to the God Who then scattered them (save a few); who later built Babylon into a great pagan empire which God destroyed (save a few); who have since built many wicked and fornicating Babylons collectively called, Mystery Babylon The Great, whom God warns before utterly destroying again (save a few); and of ‘the Few’ God is creating a New Spiritual Humanity of Son-and-Daughter Saviours like unto Jesus, in New Jerusalem on spiritual Mt. Zion, were ALL will be redeemed (NOT just a few); that God may be "ALL in All"!
[url=http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html]>SOURCE

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I think lucifer was just the loosing faction in a ancient war that involved mankind helping as pons to the "Angels." The victorious side got to write history and demonise the other. THere are arguments one can make that put satan in the favorable light and not "god" or the victorious side.

aaarrrrrrgh!!!

I had a really good reply for you....hit send and firefox bugged out on me!!!



But your aim on the nail is rather impressive, too.

Have you read the book of Enoch?

reluctant-messenger.com...

Let me know, and later I'll try to get a similar post written for you (using notepad!!! gggrrrr..!)

Originally posted by yeahright
If you have a chance to look at that link, I think you'd find it interesting.

You know, it turns out I've read that, after checking. It IS really good. I like that guy because he promotes God in truth and praises His character - and so I know he knows what he's talking about. He is a reliable source of information, IMO. None of us have the whole story, but I do think that several are filling in more and more blanks as time passes...I learn from others like him, although I am VERY selective about who I learn from (in humility) - I learn from every thing I encounter. But not all that would be my teacher do I allow to teach me in that fashion. Only those that meet the criteria (love, unity, humility, and a GOOD GOD who is for ALL MEN).

Let me give you the history of the world including all future prophecies, in one sentence:
God perfectly planned and recorded His creation of the heavens, angels, the earth, and carnal humanity, who sinned wickedly and were all drowned (save a few); who then reached for their own heaven at the tower of Babel in rebellion to the God Who then scattered them (save a few); who later built Babylon into a great pagan empire which God destroyed (save a few); who have since built many wicked and fornicating Babylons collectively called, Mystery Babylon The Great, whom God warns before utterly destroying again (save a few); and of ‘the Few’ God is creating a New Spiritual Humanity of Son-and-Daughter Saviours like unto Jesus, in New Jerusalem on spiritual Mt. Zion, were ALL will be redeemed (NOT just a few); that God may be "ALL in All"!
[url=http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html]>SOURCE Elijah --> Moses --> Yehoshua) stood in for the one who transgressed and was doomed! (Azazel --> Nebuchadnezzar --> Jezebel - who, being redeemed and purified, is resurrected as 'the virgin daughter of Zion' --> represented in Zechariah's prophecy as 'Zerubbbabel!' the bride! New Jerusalem! Not a city and not a group of religious people...but ONE who is ONE with God! For there is only ONE!)

When you think about it - wouldn't it be basically impossible for even an angel to NOT be corrupted with the level of power that inheriting a whole planet full comes with?!?
Absolute power absolutely corrupts!

The best way to prevent that is by EXTREME humbling...before it's all screwed up...

And it is for the good of humanity. All are human, but not all are destined as sovereign....just ONE.

Welcome back, by the way. Hope everything's ok with you.

Truly, my friend - I have never been BETTER in my life. I can't describe how I feel these days....I cry a lot but it is because the joy I feel would burst me if I didn't flow forth like a salty fountain.

God's not long in bringing all this horror to an end....not long AT ALL!

And HE is SO GOOD! I can't wait until it's apparent to all the world!

And wouldn't that be some irony that the proclaimed "Luciferians" are actually praising/worshipping Christ

I have always, always wondered and stumbled on the verse in Rev 22:16 which to me clearly refers to Christ as the bright morning star aka Lucifer. Wow, I turned right to it in my Bible!

(also I voted for you queenannie38 for this topic and all the detail you put into it)

You're not wrong, one of the last phrases of my 'good news' copy of the bible Jesus saying: "I am the bright morning star". I always remembered Lucifer being a Latin name for the morning star.

Originally posted by queenannie38
is one I AM totally sick to death of!

It seems no one really cares to find out the truth, even if it means they are mistaking the identity of the one they love!

Isaiah 14:12
Heylel - according to Strong’s Concordance and Brown Driver Briggs
Lucifer – according to Jerome’s ad-lib translation (Latin Vulgate)
Helel – according to the Scriptures 98 translation (from the Institute for Scripture Research)
‘day-star, son of the morning’ – according to the Jerusalem Publication Society Version

Also: ‘light-bearer’ (according to the dictionaries); a noun which comes from the root verb which means ‘to shine (of God’s favor)’ and/or to ‘flash forth light.’ It can also mean: ‘praise, boast, or be boastful.’ This is inclusive of several variations: to be worthy of praise, to praise another, and to praise self.

‘Aaron’ also represents illumination (light-bringer). This is fitting, considering he was the first High Priest and aside from wearing the breast-plate with the Urim (flame) and the Thummin (perfect truth), one of his prestigious services was over the Holy Fire used in the temple.

Interesting fact:

If we change just one letter in Heylel (the first lamed – 12th letter of the aleph-bet)
הילל

and change it to another (kaf – the 11th letter) we have the word for ‘temple!’
היכל

The first word is symbolically rendered as: ‘spirit of God – right hand of God – teaching/learning – teaching/learning’
The second one becomes: ‘spirit of God – right hand of God – crowning accomplishment – teaching/learning’

Looking at the passage in Isaiah again:

14:14 I will ascend(5927 also ‘be taken up,’ ‘be exalted’) above(5921 also ‘beside,’ ‘next to,’ ‘together with’) the heights(1116) of the clouds;(5645) I will be like(1819 or ‘resemble’) the most High(5945 Elyon).

Now. Look at some NT verses:

Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Acts 1:9-11
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And Paul writes, in Philippians 2:6-9:

Who, being in the form (resemblence) of (the most High) God, thought it not robbery to be equal with (next to, beside) God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted (God exalted) him, and given him a name which is above (higher than) every name:

Also:
Isaiah 14:10
All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Matthew 27:39
And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, .(…) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save…

Also in Mark and Luke there are very similar passages…and in John 19:7 this is written:

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

‘Son of God’ made himself the Son of God…. Who made him the Son of God? There is but ONE with that power…

And the ONE who holds that rule can bring down low just the same as He can lift up….

Remember Nebuchadnezzar’s report on what he had learned (after being brought down and then restored his kingdom)?

Daniel 4:37
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Isaiah was prophesying about our LORD!!! (that’s ALL prophesy is about, anyway – always….anything the prophets foretold was, without fail, somehow to do with God’s anointed!)

It’s time to quit calling our LORD ‘satan’ because we are too lazy to do proper truth-seeking in the scriptures (BE a BEREAN – I dare ya!) or too attached to our previous ideas….it doesn’t matter what is TRUE as long as we trust GOD to show us…

The truth is AMAZING and not at all what any man could ever guess…

dude lucifer can goto hell the only way this owrld is going to end is if the un turns red on us or we blow ourselves up, oh and mmaybe aliens came and killed us off.

Originally posted by queenannie38


I had a really good reply for you....hit send and firefox bugged out on me!!!

There cannot be anything more beautifull and fulfilling than being in the presence of God and yet:

1. Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

2. Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

3. After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to most Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

Do you have a theory for this rebellion?

Actually.....No.

Because that what you've said and what most unquestioningly accept as 'truth' IS a theory - one that is not even grounded in anything close to solid unbiased biblical scholastics
...(and YES, there actually is such a thing but it is rarer than a talking donkey these days)...

It is an idea that the religious 'authorities' have constructed for theological security purposes

...(meaning it #1 it makes them seem as if they know what they're talking about and #2 it keeps all their 'not-a-flock' sheople in line on their circular path to their 'not-a-god' and his 'not-a-refuge-but-a-pit')....

And an hour or so spent in imitation of the Noble Bereans of Paul's day would make it less convincing, if not proven totally without validity at all.

BUT....I'll address the points you've made according to what scripture says (not what I believe it says but what the words convey on their own.)

Your points:

Lucifer rebelled against God, despite knowing the full glory of heaven, and seeing God face to face.

So did Adam and so did Cain. Even Moses got some heat over just one moment wherein he did not let complete trust and submittal to God’s instructions govern his actions…

Obviously that is something that is not beyond God to fix. The children of Israel are constantly derided in the OT for being a hard-headed/stiff-necked people!

Lucifer was able to convince a third of God's own angels that he was a better choice than Yahweh.

Do you have any sort of reference (scripture #) you could give me on that one? I’ve never found that idea in there, at all. And I’ve looked and LOOKED.

That’s aside from the fact that ‘yahweh’ is not a valid name for Diety – if you don’t know the name, don’t improvise, I always say. ‘I AM’ is the name we have been given to know Him by all our generations, BTW.

After his rebellion, Lucifer was not sent directly to hell. He was given reign over God's creation, Earth, and the license to have strong influence over God's most precious creation, mankind. According to most Christians, he is still here, greatly influencing world affairs, even 2000 years after Jesus supposedly defeated "death & hell".

I’m sorry, but the idea of what is ‘according to most Christians’ is no sort of authority or substantiation about ANYTHING.

In fact, for me, that is almost qualified as ‘proof’ that the theory is unfounded nonsense…only because every other so-called doctrinal truth that I’ve heard is ‘according to most Christians’ is obviously something that exists in some other bible than the ones I have. But I won’t apply that here, since it is one of those personal Berean issues that one must work out on their own.

If you find me some words in the bible to back that up, then I’ll be glad
to pursue it further, though - I hope you understand my reasoning.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR

Originally posted by queenannie38

I had a really good reply for you....hit send and firefox bugged out on me!!!

Ersatz ~

I'm wondering...what does my reply to BASSPLYR have to do with your questions about that theory? What I mean is - was there a reason you quoted me?

QueenNannie:

You have got to be kidding!! I had to read your Opening Post twice just to believe my eyes. This is the second ATS “scholar” I have read on these Bible topics and neither of them appear to have a clue. My reading finds her thesis poorly defined, most ridiculous and totally absurd! What is the queen nannie saying?

The Lucifer Conspiracy is one I AM totally sick to death of! It seems no one really cares to find out the truth, even if it means they are mistaking the identity of the one they love!

What kind of ‘scholar’ passes this off as a ‘thesis statement?’ So, she is sick of this ‘Lucifer Conspiracy’ that she never defines, then switches gears to address the reader by informing him this “Lucifer” is truly the “one they love!” OMG . . . She heads off to begin presenting her evidence to prop up the poorly defined thesis above, by offering different translations of the same Hebrew term. Why not just read from the Hebrew and stop the nonsense?

Nannie >> Isaiah 14:12 Heylel - according to Strong’s Concordance . . . ‘day-star, son of the morning’ – according to the Jerusalem Publication Society Version [snip] Also: ‘light-bearer’ (according to the dictionaries); a noun which comes from the root verb which means ‘to shine (of God’s favor)’ [snip]

The Hebrew term “Heylel” (#1966) is indeed translated “Lucifer” in the Authorized Version, according to Strong’s Lexicon and the Blue Letter Bible ( www.blueletterbible.org... ). However, Satan’s Hebrew name describes him BEFORE the fall, when he sat in the lofty position of being “the anointed cherub who covers.” Ezekiel 28:14. Scripture says,

"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you sinned; therefore I have cast you as PROFANE From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.” Ezekiel 28:14-16.

And the nannie scholar wants you to be in love with the devil?! This OP is beyond the realm of preposterous!

Nannie >> ‘Aaron’ also represents illumination (light-bringer). This is fitting, considering he was the first High Priest and aside from wearing the breast-plate with the Urim (flame) and the Thummin (perfect truth), one of his prestigious services was over the Holy Fire used in the temple.

So what? Aaron is the brother of Moses and Satan is going to be crushed under our feet. Get ready to join the Nannie in a long foot kissing procession:

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” Romans 16:20.

“Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, BUT LIE -- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.” Revelation 3:9.

Nannie >> Interesting fact: If we change just one letter in Heylel . . .[snip]

If we what?! Lord – Have – Mercy . . . I am not going to quote every word of this NONSENSE to state the obvious. Changing letters of Hebrew terms to justify a “Satan is our god” hypothesis is throwing effort after FOOLISHNESS, but these final words take the cake:

Nannie >> It’s time to quit calling our LORD ‘satan’ because we are too lazy to do proper truth-seeking in the scriptures (BE a BEREAN – I dare ya!) or too attached to our previous ideas….it doesn’t matter what is TRUE as long as we trust GOD to show us… The truth is AMAZING and not at all what any man could ever guess…

Heh . . . So, it doesn’t matter what is TRUE, huh?? Our resident scholar/nannie appears to be completely out of her mind. What does Scripture say?

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” 1Peter 5:8.

The Apostle Paul describes the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) as the ‘prince of the power of the air’ and the “the spirit that is NOW WORKING in the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE.” Ephesians 2:2. That statement alone does not find Ms. QueenNannie standing in the best light. Paul defines the devil and his sons of disobedience this way, saying:

“No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose END will be according to their deeds.” 2Corinthians 11:14+15.

What need has Satan to disguise himself as an angel of light, when his servants log on to the ATS Board and do that for him??!! This is the kind of behavior on exhibition from one truly participating in the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7), as they rejected our gospel to receive the ‘deluding influence.’ Note very carefully what Paul says on this topic:

“. . . and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God sends upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” 2Thessalonians 2:10-12.

Now that Ms. QueenNannie has been baptized into the mystery of iniquity and will continue to ‘believe what is false’ all her days on this earth, she is here to drag you and everyone else down through the same ridiculous devices that find her bound and chained to a destiny with God’s wrath and eternal damnation through Judgment (Rev. 20:10-15). Satan’s destiny is in the ‘lake of fire’ to burn to the ‘ages of the ages’ (Rev. 20:10) and you are being welcomed to join her in the Judgment that follows (Rev. 20:11-15) right along with all her worthy and dedicated disciples.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

Oh this is rich Terral,

Kind of like the Pope attacking Islam. Anyone with eyes to see know they serve the same master.

Queeny, you got any of those axes and swords left, or have I dulled them all.



Let see what you got Annie

Sun Matrix:

Sun Matrix >> Oh this is rich Terral, Kind of like the Pope attacking Islam. Anyone with eyes to see know they serve the same master.

I would love to ‘quote >>’ Sun Matrix offering his thoughtful explanations in this debate, but once again he grandstands, plays the fool and exists without making a single statement on the topic. How about if you “quote me >>” and try to make your accusations stick?! Or would that be asking too much? Bring it – and the result will sunny-side-up! Do not boast like one taking off his armor, when you have yet to put any on. 1Kings 20:11.

Sun Matrix >> Queeny, you got any of those axes and swords left, or have I dulled them all. Let see what you got Annie.

Annie’s chances of success in this debate are equal to Sun Matrix’s chances of making one intelligent statement on this topic. Put down the stones and “quote >>” somebody to prove something errant using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. You claim that I and Annie serve the same master from things both of us said in the posts above. Please highlight those things in the next reply, so all of us can know what the heck you are talking about. My vision of Sun Matrix does not include the full armor of God, shield of faith and certainly no sword of the spirit (Eph. 6:11-17). All I see is a guy bearing stones. Please try to prove me wrong just once!

My God is the God of my Lord Jesus Christ who raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) and is referred to as “His God and Father.” Revelation 1:6. He is the “one God” for whom Christ Jesus is the “one Mediator” between God and men. 1Timothy 2:5. Simply compare “My God” (John 20:17) to the object of Annie’s worship. Good grief . . .

GL in the debate,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Still can't come up with a name for your God I see. Sound kinda like this.

That's great Terral, by the way, what is the name of your God?


BLAH, BLAH, BLAH My god is the god that created the heavens and the earth

What's his name?

My god created all things

What's his name?

My god is the great healer

Does he have a name?

Well certainly, he is the father of Jesus Christ.

And what might his name be?

I just told you. How many times do I have to tell you.

I know who I think is the Father of Jesus Christ is..........I want to know who you think it is. Speak plainly and put a name on your god if you are going to talk about religion. Deny Ignorance.