Two Iraqi Women Killed by Marines

Washington Post

Two Iraqi women were shot to death north of Baghdad after coalition forces fired on a vehicle that failed to stop at an observation post, the U.S. military said Wednesday. Iraqi police and relatives said one of the women was about to give birth.

A car entered a clearly marked prohibited area near coalition troops at an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings, the U.S. military said in a statement e-mailed to The Associated Press.

"Shots were fired to disable the vehicle," the statement said.

You don't disable a vehicle by shooting it's windshield!!

What I want to know is... Why is it that every time we hear about civilians being killed, it's always because they refused to stop despite repeated warnings?

Surely these people know they will be fired upon if they refuse to do something required of the coalition forces there. What are they doing? Committing suicide? I'm sorry to say, but I'm beginning to doubt the military's reports that all these people refuse to stop after repeated warnings.

Simple, they were insurgents.

They had bombs in the car. That's why they didn't stop. They were trying to kill our boys, so they had to die. Iraqi women are some of the worst insurgents. Mark another 1 for the Marines! Good job guys; I hope they cheered after they put them down.

(note the sarcasm there )

all conjecture either way, should be easy to find out if they were shot while standing still, shouldn't it?

Of course anything can be fabricated, but it's hard to tell without any evidence, obviously.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You don't disable a vehicle by shooting it's windshield!!

Seems like it stopped it from moving.

What I want to know is... Why is it that every time we hear about civilians being killed, it's always because they refused to stop despite repeated warnings?

I'm sorry to say, but I'm beginning to doubt the military's reports that all these people refuse to stop after repeated warnings.

I'm sure that in some incidents the gunners got jumpy and fired before a stop command was issued, or even after failure to respond to the stop command.

Surely these people know they will be fired upon if they refuse to do something required of the coalition forces there.

All the more reason to blast away if there isn't an immediate response.

One Woman was about to Give Birth?

Maybe that explains it, why they did not stop.

But it surely does NOT approve any shooting at the windscreen.

I am - as usual - VERY skeptic about the official Army report of this story.

AND if you want stop a Vehicle, SHOOT AT TYRES!

Originally posted by Souljah


AND if you want stop a Vehicle, SHOOT AT TYRES!

Easier say than done. You try shooting the tires while the car is moving forward in front of you. And car still has momentum even if tires are out. I can show you an insurgent video where troops fire on a suicide bomber in a car and you see how fast it gets from point A to point B and BOOOOOOOOOM.

Originally posted by deltaboy
Easier say than done. You try shooting the tires while the car is moving forward in front of you. And car still has momentum even if tires are out. I can show you an insurgent video where troops fire on a suicide bomber in a car and you see how fast it gets from point A to point B and BOOOOOOOOOM.

Well if you shoot at the Windscreen you KILL everybody inside.

Sure works in stopping the Vehicle.

And it also works in Pissing off even MORE Iraqis.

But I guess you have no problem with that.

Two Innocent Civilans are dead - one possibly Pregnant.

Originally posted by Souljah
One Woman was about to Give Birth?

Maybe that explains it, why they did not stop.

But it surely does NOT approve any shooting at the windscreen.

I am - as usual - VERY skeptic about the official Army report of this story.

AND if you want stop a Vehicle, SHOOT AT TYRES!

You do not have even the tiniest clue what you are blathering about. Think for a moment the difficulty of shoot at the tires of a vehicle MOVING towards you. Do you know how much time the solders had to react to the situation? Do you how fast the car was moving? Or how far away it was?

No you don’t, but a COMPLETE absence of knowledge presents no obstacle to you forming an opinion on the matter. That’s the sign of true intellect.

Originally posted by Souljah
Well if you shoot at the Windscreen you KILL everybody inside.
Sure works in stopping the Vehicle.
And it also works in Pissing off even MORE Iraqis.
But I guess you have no problem with that.
Two Innocent Civilans are dead - one possibly Pregnant.

Ok, and these Iraqis dont at least have the common sense to stop and show the pregnant woman in the car? How are the troops supposed to know who is in the car. You dont take chances like that. It would be stupid to do so. Iraqis are smart enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and running a checkpoint reguardless of the situation will git you shot. It would only take a second to stop let the soldiers see the woman is pregnant and see them on their way. It aint rocket science, you see a checkpoint and signs telling you to stop, you stop. They could have saved their own lives this way.

My whole point here is that I don't believe there was an attempt to get these people to stop! They always say that! They always say "the car refused to stop after repeated attempts". How many times are we supposed to fall for this?

Originally posted by ludaChris
Iraqis are smart enough to understand the consequences of their actions, and running a checkpoint reguardless of the situation will git you shot.

EXACTLY!!! Thank you! So why would a pregnant Iraqi woman on her way to the hospital to have her baby run a checkpoint?!?!?!? It doesn't make sense!

It would only take a second to stop let the soldiers see the woman is pregnant and see them on their way.

EXACTLY!

I'm saying this checkpoint story is getting old and it's BS!

Ludacris,

Who ever stepped out of that car would have gotten it right between the eyes, we know that. No questions asked.

Sad, sad, story and we expect them not to come here and pay us back? Ha!
Keeping aside the bogus threat reports we get everyday, i am sure the middle east has big plans for us. Or the Russians or the Chinese. Lets just see how we handle that little problem.

I will add:

Khalid Nisaif Jassim, the pregnant woman's brother, said American forces had blocked off the side road only two weeks ago and news about the observation post had been slow to filter out to rural areas.

He said the killings, like those in Haditha, were examples of random killings faced by Iraqis every day.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by Souljah

Sure works in stopping the Vehicle.

And it also works in Pissing off even MORE Iraqis.

But I guess you have no problem with that.

Two Innocent Civilans are dead - one possibly Pregnant.

We should just nuke ourselves shouldn't we? Us bad Americans should all die like the swine we are. We're the great satan, everyone else holds your hand in the world, and we just blow it off right?

Why don't you personally try to charge a police checkpoint in say Saudi Arabia or Egypt and see what happens. I'm sure in your world they'll give you milk and cookies.

Also:

Jassim's brother, who was wounded by broken glass, said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital. Her husband was waiting for her there.

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said.

From the original source.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Ludacris,

Who ever stepped out of that car would have gotten it right between the eyes, we know that. No questions asked.

Sad, sad, story and we expect them not to come here and pay us back? Ha!
Keeping aside the bogus threat reports we get everyday, i am sure the middle east has big plans for us. Or the Russians or the Chinese. Lets just see how we handle that little problem.

[edit on 31-5-2006 by dgtempe]

It doesnt involve stepping out of the car. If the woman is pregnant simply stop and let the troops know that there is a pregnant woman in the car(if she was in labor and about to give birth) and that they are heading to the hospital. You think soldiers would shoot them if they just stopped and showed them the problem? How long would it take for the troops to realize she needs to get to the hospital or they are just driving through? Not but a few seconds.

Originally posted by El Tiante
You do not have even the tiniest clue what you are blathering about. Think for a moment the difficulty of shoot at the tires of a vehicle MOVING towards you. Do you know how much time the solders had to react to the situation? Do you how fast the car was moving? Or how far away it was?

No you don’t, but a COMPLETE absence of knowledge presents no obstacle to you forming an opinion on the matter. That’s the sign of true intellect.

Well pardon my French - but I did not create this bleep up situation in Iraq.

If I remember correctly, the country was Invaded on a basis of a pack of Lies.

And now you have US soldiers shooting 1-year old kids, pregnant women etc.

I think the only people that REALLY do not like this situation are the Iraqis.

They are the onse getting shot at, blown-up - and if they are lucky, their home will get raided.

The problem is, that the Soldiers are getting pretty Nervous and Trigger happy, and in fact, they are pretty much Scared too. So they just shoot at anything that moves. It showed in the Haditha massacre, how they retaliated, when their buddy got killed.

Thank Your Dear President for that.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 15/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Think of it this way Souljah, any future conflicts where our enemy decided to hide among the civilian populations, its pretty much going to be a blee up war.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 15/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by Souljah
AND if you want stop a Vehicle, SHOOT AT TYRES!

Again, the vehicle stopped after shooting through the windsheild. Dead people don't drive. They probably didn't even target the windsheild, but just sprayed the thing after it spooked them.

Also, I beleive that they are told to not shoot at the tires, but rather the engine block, because a speeding car can still move on flat shot-out tires.

Well if you shoot at the Windscreen you KILL everybody inside.

Precisely. And then the car stops.

And it also works in Pissing off even MORE Iraqis.

Meh. They're already pretty ticked off anyway.

Two Innocent Civilans are dead - one possibly Pregnant.

Guess the should've stopped their car.

Benevolent Heretic
I don't believe there was an attempt to get these people to stop!

Its entirely possible that they just shot it out for kicks. Perhaps the most likely event was that they signaled for it to stop, it didn't, they got spooked, and opened up with their guns, no repeated warnings, no warning shots, just a jumpy kid with an automatic weapon.

So why would a pregnant Iraqi woman on her way to the hospital to have her baby run a checkpoint?!?!?!?

Its easy for mistakes to occur. They guys aren't sitting their with crossing guard style 'stop' signs. They are wearing camoflague, in the shimmering heat, on a crowded street, with lots of distractions, waving one hand and holding a machine gun in another. Some checkpoints have people at the front that will wave you on through to the guys that will tell you to stop, which adds to the confusion. Its entirely possible that they told them to stop, these women didn't see it, got confused, tried to turn off the road, maybe they just made a wrong turn to, and these kids got jumpy and killed them.

I'm saying this checkpoint story is getting old and it's BS

I don't see why its got to be BS and I'd have to say that its far more likely that there is confusion on the street than that there are viscious psychopaths being put into crossing guard duty in each instance.

dgtempe
i am sure the middle east has big plans for us. Or the Russians or the Chinese. Lets just see how we handle that little problem

WRT the middle east, they're focused on fighting the US in Iraq, and before long Iran, etc. WRT Russia or China, they can't win a global thermonuclear war, so they're not going to start one.

i am sure the middle east has big plans for us. Or the Russians or the Chinese. Lets just see how we handle that little problem

Not for nothing, but its rather odd that he'd specifically mention an incident that occured a while ago in Iraq and that today is a 'hot topic' in the news in the US.

Benevolent Heretic
said he did not see any warnings as he sped his sister to the hospital

So lets take him at his word. His wife is pregnant, needs to go to the hospital, and he's speeding his car up to a check point.

These Joes probably didn't give repeated "halt" signals. There's a car speeding up to a check point that's been there for two weeks. Of course its going to end up bullet ridden.

The surest way to get a vehicle to stop is to disable the driver. You don't shoot at tires, which are very hard to hit and can still be used to drive on. You don't shoot at the engine, which is a large chunk of metal which can absorb a surprising amount of damage. No, you shoot at the squishy and fragile human behind the wheel. Especially if you suspect that the trunk of the vehicle contains a large amount of high explosives, the trigger is in the hands of the driver, and the vehicle is bearing down on your at a high rate of speed. Your objective is to reduce the driver's head into cranberry sauce. That is the stark reality of war against insurgents who use the tactic of vehicle-borne explosives.

I'm tempted to post some images I have access to in this response. Images of US soldiers laying in the road - victims of IEDs and VIEDs. Literally torn to pieces as their fellow servicemen remove their dog tags. But I will maintain the appropriate level of decorum. However, it would serve to illustrate the level of stress that these people are dealing with every damn day.

Dgtempe, the fact that you truly believe that US servicemen would execute out of hand pregnant women at a checkpoint is...well....dispicable. Why don't you walk a mile in their shoes before you hand out your criticisms and judgements in such a cavalier manner? These people aren't evil minions of BushCo...they are simple kids trying not to be blown into smithereens.

In many ways, these deaths are a unfortunate (but not totoally unexpected) by-product of the methodologies the insurgents choose to use. And don't think for a minute that these rabid dogs haven't planned in advance for these unexpected collateral killings....I'm sure they fully expect them to occur, amd Im also sure that they find these killings useful for their own policial causes.

I read about this story on CNN. I find it very interesting that in the "Other Developments" section of the bottom of the column there appeared a brief paragraph about other Iraqi civilian deaths. In short, during the same time period in the same area about 40 dead Iraqis were found, victims of the Sunni insurgents no doubt, all of whom appeared to have been tortured and executed at close range.

So where's the love for these dead Iraqis? Or, are they irrelevant because because they weren't killed by Americans? Only victims of the US Army get tears and outrage, but everyone else gets nothing, eh?

Dgtempe, the fact that you truly believe that US servicemen would execute out of hand pregnant women at a checkpoint is...well....dispicable.

Errr, have you been paying attention to the news?

Haditha, where the Pentagon itself has just concluded that US soldiers executed 24 Iraqi civilians, including an elderly blind man, a taxi full of teenagers (along with the driver), several women, and several young children, in response to a car bombing none of them had anything to do with? I suppose you find the Pentagon "dispicable" as well?

Truth is, putting on a US military uniform doesn't automatically make anyone a saint. I've known a lot of soldiers, some were great people, some were utter and complete scumbags.

One online acquaintance in particular comes to mind (not from this site), boasting how he couldn't wait to get to Iraq and kill some "hajis"... he didn't seem to care much whether they were insurgents or civilians, as long as he got to kill some Arabs.

I'm sure most of the people wearing the uniform are decent people, trying to do a difficult, dangerous job as honorably as they can. And some others are amoral dirtbags I'd barely consider human beings...

[edit on 5/31/06 by xmotex]

There is no definitive conclusion.

The reference is to a preliminary investigation’s findings last week.

Military investigators have evidence that points toward unprovoked murders by Marines, a senior defense official said last week.
AP

The formal investigations are currently still underway.

From your source:

There are two ongoing military investigations.

A probe by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, responsible for cases involving Marines, might lead to charges including murder, officials said. A separate fact-finding inquiry involves whether Marines tried to cover up the true nature of the incident, officials said.

The defense official said the investigations should be completed in mid-June.

mg