Upside down cross on popes chair.

There is also to say in a very very modest sense much much much more evidense for reincarnation in multiple situations and cultures around the world, and none for a one life and heavan and hell etc.

Ive posted this link before.....its a study done at the university of Virginia by Dr. Ian Stevenson proving that reincarnation is real.

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...

I find it amazing that some people when confronted with evidence that is contrary to their belief system simply choose to ignore the evidence.


[edit on 25-1-2007 by etshrtslr]

Originally posted by etshrtslr

There is also to say in a very very modest sense much much much more evidense for reincarnation in multiple situations and cultures around the world, and none for a one life and heavan and hell etc.

Ive posted this link before.....its a study done at the university of Virginia by Dr. Ian Stevenson proving that reincarnation is real.

www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...

I find it amazing that some people when confronted with evidence that is contrary to their belief system simply choose to ignore the evidence.

I have no doubt that there is plenty of cultures that believe in reincarnation as I understand where these beliefs originated......Babylon. From the cow of India to the Apis Bull........it's all the same bull.

Here is evidence of someone on this board going to heaven.

www.belowtopsecret.com...

I find it amazing that some people when confronted with the TRUTH simply choose to ignore the truth and get led down the wide easy path.

I find it amazing that some people when confronted with the TRUTH simply choose to ignore the truth and get led down the wide easy path.

Please provide some scientific evidence for your truth.

I have provided you with scientific evidence for reincarnation yet you choose to ignore because it goes against everything you believe in and you either don't have the courage to change your beliefs when confronted with over whelming evidence or you refuse to look at the evidence with an open mind.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein

[edit on 25-1-2007 by etshrtslr]

I sorry maybe I missed something. What I read was eyewitness accounts of the past including NDE's

I provided the same type of eyewitness account. The only difference is you can u2u my link.

Sun Matrix

Ive also posted my NDE I was In Intensive care for 14 days. I was resuscitated 3 times in this period and had two major emergency operations lasting over 10 hors each. My family and friends all said their good byes and as I was born a catholic and used to go to mass (as an altar server with the local archbishop) 3 times a week at least, for most of my life till I was in my twenties. As I was given less than 10% chance of living within the first day of arriving at the ICU unit and after the first major operation they suggested my family get a priest for their last rites.

You don’t get much more dead than that and then come back to full health and fitness (besides the scars!! and a total dislike for machines that go "ping!"

My beliefs have changed since my blind faith in the formative years, I now realise that when people who are shamans, evangelicals, Buddhists, atheists, Islamic, Pentecostal or whatever that these NDE experiences have the same basic experience. So obviously as all go to their God when this happens so there cant be one separate "I am the only one! " type of god.

The main feeling I had from this light and higher being is the following, total unconditional unjudgemental love with no separateness. That all things are one no distinction, and separation is the opposite of what I experienced, the thought of only being subject to this experience if you choose or are only shown the experience of one cultures beliefs in one type of God , is to be honest silly. there was no judgement there of who you believed in, what race or culture, just What you believed in your heart and what you thought and did. Good is Good and Bad is Bad simple as.

Please feel free to U2u Me anyone who wants to on this experience. I don’t normally talk about the experience however I did here in response to King Lizards post have a look

Truth about Angels

So I saw a light, met with angels and what I would call "god" however I still believe in reincarnation and not the separate all powerful Christian or any other monotheistic religious deity making everything, why is that? because being enveloped in that experience God is not male or female, not Christian or Islamic or any other separate identity, God is the name that humans have given to the underlying nature of the universe which is Unconditional total LOVE. To love if you are a Muslim, Christian, pagan whatever is to be close to the same god because there is only one and he/she/it the concept does not care what clothes you wear, which prayers you make, its the feeling and actions behind this that seemed so important.

Judgemental aspects of monotheistic beliefs seem to be rife. It is though a form or control through fear that the church(s) has used for millennia to consolidate their power and control. I had no experience of this though from the light or angels etc. Though judgement did happen, but by myself, My own conscience, soul whatever is what I experienced judging me, in the face of total Love, in a place where it is impossible to lie and hide behind our masks or excuses we have on earthly planes, I was only aware of myself experiencing all the effects of my actions as experienced by the people they affected, and when negative ones surfaced my own soul was in shame in the shadow, of where it felt part of where it felt home to in this total Love, it felt embarrassed now once again it could see its underlying nature, and capabilities in respect to Love.

As said anyone please feel free to U2U me on this if you like, or if you can only accept a Christian version do so to King Lizard, I don’t doubt his experience at all, we just perceived them differently due to our conditioning, beliefs and preconceptions.


Kind Regards and Love to all.

Elf

Awesome story about the NDE, Elf! I agree with you about there being only one God--I don't much think He cares which particular camp you belong to!

Sun Matrix---where on earth did you pick up this preposterous fixation with all things Babylonian??? According to you, anything and everything you dislike comes from Babylon!! What did the Babylonians--who haven't been around for the past few thousand years anyway--ever do to you?!

And you know--didn't the Babylonians have some kind of sun/moon worship?

And you call yourself "Sun Matrix"....

Hmmm....

reply to post by d1k


Peter....One of the Apostles.....whom was chosen by God to lead the Christians after Jesus's death....is who the Pope represents. Jesus told Peter...before the rooster crows 3 times You will deny ME. Which happened. Peter fled the scene...God gave Peter much Grace to lead the Christians. At the end of Peter's life......Peter was captured and sentenced to death by crucifixion ....Peter told the Romans he was not worthy to die as Christ died and requested to have the cross turn upside down....which they did....this fact I read in the Bible.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there could have been civilizations prior to known history? There are so many anomalies in archeology that the speculation that there were civilizations prior to our known history, is really not that different than speculating that an alien civilization did gene manipulation. 30 years ago people were laughed at and derided for their ideas. Gene therapy, cloning! Laugh you right out of the science journals for even supposing these things.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there could have been civilizations prior to known history? There are so many anomalies in archeology that the speculation that there were civilizations prior to our known history, is really not that different than speculating that an alien civilization did gene manipulation. 30 years ago people were laughed at and derided for their ideas. Gene therapy, cloning! Laugh you right out of the science journals for even supposing these things.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Why is it so difficult to entertain the idea that there could have been civilizations prior to known history? There are so many anomalies in archeology that the speculation that there were civilizations prior to our known history, is really not that different than speculating that an alien civilization did gene manipulation. 30 years ago people were laughed at and derided for their ideas. Gene therapy, cloning! Laugh you right out of the science journals for even supposing these things.

Originally posted by Nakash
Peter was never in Rome. To your credit many of the church fathers had this belief, but his tomb was found in Jerusalem :

www.aloha.net...

This is worthy of a Da Vinci code status conspiracy in my opinion (a REAL conspiracy as opposed to that infantile low iq holy grail crap).

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Nakash]

Hehe. This could easilly be falsified. From time to time there surfaces some amasing antiquities. Like the famous ousary of Jacob, the brother of Jesus, which was later found to be a falsum. Charcoal is a favorite among these criminals. They buy ancient charcoal and either write or leave traces in the antiquities, so that when they are carbon dated the results are flawed. It's common knowledge that Peter died under Nero, and you can read about it in the apocrypha. Apocryphal Acts of Peter. That's a good start, a fun read.

Jesus came into the world not to condemn, but to save. With His love we have the opportunity to ask for forgivness and to take Him into our hearts and be saved!

Everyone has responsibility to seek the truth themselves, and the truth is in the bible, therefor look and see that your catholic religion is false!

I am not trying to offend anyone. I myself was raised catholic and till this day beg my parents to see other wise, even though they do not read their bibles and one of them does not even go to church! But they hold onto catholicism stubbornly, being affraid to let go of the only thing they ever knew that connects them to Our Lord.

The Catholic religion should not use ANY symbolism, and they do, and in this case they use an inverted cross that is satanic. Why use a cross at all? Why use something that was used to kill people, including our Savior?

Isnt it sad to anyone that He was murdered! And your religion is going to use that symbol as a sign of OUR SAVIOUR!!! Are you mad?????

The Bible says not to use any statues, let alone worship them! You say you dont, but its clearly evident in photos and videos everywhere! It confuses good people to do the wrong thing. The Catholic church should be ashamed of itself!

The Bible also says not to worship anyone but God! And the catholics worship saints and Mary!!! You pray to Mary!!! MARY DOES NOT WANT YOU TO PRAY TO HER!!!!! YOU HAVE MADE HER A BAD SYMBOL, AND I BELIEVE SHE WOULD BE UPSET THAT ALL OF YOU PRAY TO HER! Respect is one thing, she was used for Gods purose, but we are not to worship her!

"May those who have ears listen, and those who have eyes, see!"

reply to post by Nakash


Peace to you.

I do not wish to disagree with you but....Peter did die in Rome. There are Roman records of Nero putting both Paul and Peter to death. Peter died on the cross, upside down and Paul was be headed.

Peter was considered the first Bishop to Rome. As far as I know they have not proven they have found Peter's grave in Jeruslem. But there is a handed down story of Roman Christians that Peter was buried and they put a large red rock on top of his grave to show that Peter was the rock of the church.

If you have proof of his burial site, please share it. I am always researching for data.

Peace in Christ,
Grandma

The fate of Simon Peter or Kefas is well documented, both in church literature and according to secular sources, but there are several holes in the records about Paulus. Some say he was crucified, some say he was beheaded, and some even say he escaped. Putting it all together, I have come to the conclusion that he not only survived Nero, but that he all his time as self announced apostle, worked to sabotage early Christendom, through watering out the message of Jesus or Jashua, and replacing it with his own. And his Quissling betrail is written in plain sight. It's my sincere belief that Paulus (meaning "small" or even "least", look up Matthew 5:17ff or scroll down to the bottom of this post to see exactly what Jesus said about the Law and what it means to be small or least in the Kingdom of Heaven) never left the Pharicees, but entered Christendom as an undercover agent working for the Jewish elite that just a few years earlier, before his miraculous conversion on his way to Damascus, had handed over Jesus to the slaughter and who with his own hands marthyred Stephanus.

The main task I believe he was given by his superiors, was to make sure the rising movement would never interfere with or have a voice in the Sanhedrin and the Temple, and all the synagogues around the known world. So the first thing he did was to make all Christians unclean according to the Law, so they could not enter a Jewish congregation or deal with Jewish politics or even social life etc. He abolished circumcision among the Cristians. As simple as that. This way they were no longer converted into Christ's reformed Judaism, but into Paul's invented Christendom, thus excluding them from every aspect of Jewish Law and life.

NIV Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Like I said Saul or Saulus changed his name from Saul into Paulus when he was converted. Now Saul was the arch enemy of king David, the first king of Israel. Saul means "desired" and is similar to the name of the underworld (Gr. Hades), She-ol, mis-translated Hell in KJV, while Paulus means "little" or even "least". To top this, the only other person carrying this name in the Bible is the pro-consul of Cyprus, Sergius Paulus. Sergius means "earth-born". The false prophet of Revelation is earth-born, and Sergius' right hand man was Barjesus or Elymas. The name Barjesus is a transliteration of the Hebrew "bar Jasjuah" meaning "son of Jesus". Elymas is Arabic and means "wise man". "Here is wisdom...". Paul blinded this guy, which impressed Sergius. Like Jesus said in Matthew 16:4 and other places: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign".

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Anti-Christ or not...yet...

He will come from the Catholic Church.

If you're that much in denial, you need more faith...


Also, the 1611 KJV is probably the only version (besides original Greek and Hebrew texts) that got it right and didn't "add to" or "take away" from the original scriptures....who's feeding you that crap?

reply to post by Byrd


You say that the symbol is that of Peter...Well if you know your history, Peter was not buried in Rome. He was in Jerusalem...Also you said the inverted cross symbol was used even before existence of Satanists...Well how long did you think Satan existed? Satan was there even before Christs was crusified...Remember he tempted the Lord Jesus after our Lord fasted for 40 days and 40 nights.

May the Lord enlighten you bro.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Its very difficult to believe the stories of peter and paul. Roman Catholicism is based on Peter being the first "bishop". But I find this very difficult to believe as the new testament was NOT contemporary with jesus or peter. It was written years later and had to have changed by bad translations from aramaic to greek, then greek to latin, then latin to modern languages. Also Roman church leaders picked certain books to be included in the canon and others not to be. Why?? Couldnt they have just let all the books be kept in circulation without making them heretical unless there was something to hide?

The so called gnostic gospels like that of thomas and mary magdalene were considered the most spurious before the council of nicea. As there were many christian sects with different interpretations at that time many things which christians consider as fact were not so clear then. Like the virgin birth, Jesus' divinity and Magdalene's role as a disciple. Many early christians didnt see jesus as the son of god but a messenger of god and totally human

The mystery as to why the Pope sat on a chair with an upside down cross - and the chair appears to be very well made, out of a solid piece of granite, could have to do with the essential gnostic foundation of christianity.

Satan ascended long ago. He began to awake around the time of Frederick the II of Hohenstauffen, holy roman emperor circa 13th century. He really didnt pick up steam until the late 18th century with romanticism. Perry and mary Shelly, Lord Byron , William Blake, Gauthe etc.

Satan is ascendant. Thus, the cross is upside down. The cross in its upright position signifies the spirit (which is always 3) as being above and thus superior to matter. In the 20th century that dynamic has been completely reversed. The spirit has been absorbed by matter, by sensuality, war, famine, existentialism etc. Thus, the cross is upside down, and aptly so.

Unfortunately, those who dont appreciate mystical philosophy will refuse to believe that Christianity has anything to do with Satan. Christianity has historically despised Satan - so they`ll say, and that is precisely the reason why Satan is ascendent in the predominantly christian western world in the 21st century. Christianity always gave power to the side of evil, not recognizing it as simply a tool used by the creator to motivate spiritual perfection. Gnosticism - Christianity, thus has inherited the attitude of the ancient Greco Romans. So its quite apt that they were the ones to propogate this religion - and that the church of Rome had been the central body in this endeavor.

Hope sometime soon christians wake up and realize Christianity never had anything to do with Judaism. The philosophy is more zoroastrian, with its dualism, Devil, G-d, Ormuzd and Ahriman, than truly what Judaism emphasizes in its singular statement of faith 'Hear oh Israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one'. This says there is no other power. Everything serves the one g-d. Satan is simply mans evil inclination which actually strengthens his soul - the same way that a heavy weight rips muscle and allows it to grow. The lower reflects the upper. Our spiritual muscle is strengthened when we realize Satan, evil, assists us in our spiritual growth. Another huge issue is the man god thing. Which is purely pagan in origin. Persues and Zeus? Krishna and Vishnu? I can go on listing comparisons in earier religious times to this essential pagan idea of a assimilation of man and god, the spiritual and profane. This IS the dynastic philosophy of Europes nobility. Its found in every major world religion, minus of course Judaism.

I thought that the question of the upside down cross was answered earlier in this thread.

The upside down cross in the back of the chair is in honor of St. Peter (it's known as the Cross of St. Peter) who did not feel that he was worthy to die in the same way as Christ and requested to be crucified upside down.

This was written about by Origen and has been an accepted part of Christian tradition for over 1800 years.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
I thought that the question of the upside down cross was answered earlier in this thread.

The upside down cross in the back of the chair is in honor of St. Peter (it's known as the Cross of St. Peter) who did not feel that he was worthy to die in the same way as Christ and requested to be crucified upside down.

This was written about by Origen and has been an accepted part of Christian tradition for over 1800 years.

Eric

And it also doesnt make a shred of sense.

Go ask a mystic what symbols mean. Do you tihnk theyre just random creations 'i like the way a cross looks'

No. Theres deep meaning and dynamism behind all symbols. Theyre the physical represenation of a concept. Flipping the cross upside down in honor to saint peter - even if it was an explanation given by origin, is pitifully dumb. It doesnt make any sense. Its simply, and clearly, just a dogmatic excuse to deflect suspicion away from the real, esoteric fact.

The cross is a symbol for the quaternity. There are 4 points. the three upper ones signify spirit. Notice all concepts can be abstractly broken up into 3 - Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the essence of the spiritual world. This 'trinity' needs to be realized and made real, in this world. Hence the base of a cross is longer than the top. Its a totally different realm. The bottom is the feminine principle, matter.

Are we not living in a age of materialism? There lies your answer to why the popes chair bears an upside down cross. Not in 'honor of st peter' (although that story probably does have a signifiance that accords with the meaning of the cross i gave. Which of course isnt my own view, but something you can read in the proper mystical texts) but in honor of matter being ascendent.

It really does completely FREAK me out that so many christians refuse to understand religion in its most essential way; as a garment for mysticism. The symbols religions use are not random, but have an actual symbol meaning that reflects a abstract spiritual dynamic. The shapes, forms used are simply physical represenations. Christians dont like this idea? Its ANCIENT. It has always and will forever be used. The star of David symbolizes the union of Heaven and earth - the upper triad, with the lower triad, merging as one. Just a man has broad shoulders and a thin waste, hes the upper triangle, meanwhile a women has wide hips and a slender upper body. Theyre bodies even reveal this dynamic.

I can go on listing symbols but i dont think thats necessary.

Whatever your opinions are, you cant deny that my explanation makes alot of sense. Maybe yoy sdont like the implications of it. Maybe youre a catholic and accepting that the catholic church has pagan elements is too much for you to handle. it challenges your very belief system. But truth is truth. You would think their preservation of Roman and Greek art would have given them away by now. Or atleast the 4500 year old Egyptian Obelisk standing in St. Peters square.

Guess not.